Stat Benchmarks

[Toxxus]

33 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I'm with you up to 20.  With 25, you depart from the RAW benchmarks that 30 is the pinnacle of human achievement, so I would insert a benchmark at 25, and reclassify your 25 as 30.

 

30 just seems WAY too high for humans in a heroic campaign.

 

World record dead lift is right at 500 KG and that is a single spine-threatening lift.  Not repeatable each phase until endurance runs out.  That puts a steroided-up world strong man champion at STR 21.

 

Someone being more than 3x stronger doesn't seem likely - at all.  Even using the extended STR chart where weight capacity goes up at a slower rate you'd need someone able to nearly double the 500 KG lift.

[massey]

2 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

30 just seems WAY too high for humans in a heroic campaign.

 

World record dead lift is right at 500 KG and that is a single spine-threatening lift.  Not repeatable each phase until endurance runs out.  That puts a steroided-up world strong man champion at STR 21.

 

Someone being more than 3x stronger doesn't seem likely - at all.  Even using the extended STR chart where weight capacity goes up at a slower rate you'd need someone able to nearly double the 500 KG lift.

 

The Ultimate Brick from 5th edition says that your lifting amount represents the weight that you can barely pick up off the ground, stagger for a step or two, then drop (page 9).  Same page they say that a deadlift gives you 90% of that.  So that maybe gets you to a 22 or 23 Str as a real life max.  Now again, that's the really real world.  Characters in action movies and other cinematic heroes could still be "normal" and go higher than that.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well here's what I was able to research in terms of Strength:

The Clean & Jerk (lift from the ground over your head) record is 260 kilos. 

For deadlift (reach down and pick up, standing up with weights held at your sides) is 500 kg. 

The record for Backlift (attach the weights or place them on a surface and lift slightly clear of the brackets they rest on) is a whopping 1386 kg.  There is an unofficial record claiming 2850 kg, but that's almost certainly exaggerated and unconfirmed although it is in the Guinness Book of World Records.

 

Now, the rules say "The maximum amount of weight the character can usually just manage to lift off the ground, stagger with for a step or two, then drop, in kilograms." (HSG 1, page 43).  

 

That seems to fit the record set by Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson (The Mountain) with a 650 log lifted and taking several steps in a strong man competition.  But even that is around 23 strength.  The Backlift clearly does not apply as you do not move or really even pick anything up, its just raw power to move something slightly.

 

So that's where I'm getting the 25 from: that seems to be what a human can possibly do, given the Hero definition of how they rank strength and weight lifting.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well here's what I was able to research in terms of Strength:

The Clean & Jerk (lift from the ground over your head) record is 260 kilos. 

For deadlift (reach down and pick up, standing up with weights held at your sides) is 500 kg. 

The record for Backlift (attach the weights or place them on a surface and lift slightly clear of the brackets they rest on) is a whopping 1386 kg.  There is an unofficial record claiming 2850 kg, but that's almost certainly exaggerated and unconfirmed although it is in the Guinness Book of World Records.

 

Now, the rules say "The maximum amount of weight the character can usually just manage to lift off the ground, stagger with for a step or two, then drop, in kilograms." (HSG 1, page 43).  

 

That seems to fit the record set by Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson (The Mountain) with a 650 log lifted and taking several steps in a strong man competition.  But even that is around 23 strength.  The Backlift clearly does not apply as you do not move or really even pick anything up, its just raw power to move something slightly.

 

So that's where I'm getting the 25 from: that seems to be what a human can possibly do, given the Hero definition of how they rank strength and weight lifting.

 

Or we interpret "just barely heft it clear of the brackets" as equivalent to "just manage to get it off the ground and stagger a step or two".  Now we have +5 to our maximum human STR, as 1386 is about double 650.

 

Although I have yet to see a game, or any source material, where olympic class weightlifting or world strongman competitions were a major game focus.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Or we interpret "just barely heft it clear of the brackets" as equivalent to "just manage to get it off the ground and stagger a step or two". 

 

Sure, if you wanted to but that doesn't seem to be what the rules mean since these guys doing Backlifts don't move at all.  THis video shows an example of someone doing a Back Lift of two oxen.  Its more of a strong man stunt than weight lifting, really.  For the purposes of this exercise it doesn't seem to be useful.

[Hugh Neilson]

Something is not going to match the rules, as they are clear that 30 is the peak of human possibility. Maybe "the peak" simply does not compete in these events.  Or perhaps "the peak" is not "one of the very best in the world" but "one who only comes along once in several generations".  I'd start with, perhaps, a less tangible stat, like INT - how many INT 21-25 people do we consider we can name"  How many 26 - 30?  Of course, here I am also suggesting we cap at 30, not 50, for mental stats as well., also a change to the RAW.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Here's what the rules say about primary stats ranging from 21-30:
 

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Beyond Competent is Legendary. Few humans reach this lofty plateau; generally speaking, ordinary people can never attain it. Only truly exceptional individuals — heroes and superheroes, plus the best of the best in fields such as athletics — have Legendary Characteristics. The upper limit of Legendary is the upper limit of normal human attainment.

 

Now it seems to me that this is a bit loose based on Strength as I've noted above (25 should be the max, as defined by the lifting chart) so I think as of 5th edition and following, Steve was being a bit loose with the definition and range.  Even the best, strongest, and most astounding hulk of a terrifying man on earth can't do that kind of lifting, and they're already doing so much damage to themselves at the current maximum that they are suffering body damage and passing out when attempting it.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd suggest that lifting was  not the cinematic action that anyone would have been considering when assessing the stat ranges. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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I'd suggest that lifting was  not the cinematic action that anyone would have been considering when assessing the stat ranges. 

 

Possibly but the truth is, that's the only hard world data we have to go by in a stat, and its specifically defined in the book.  So if you're going to build a range of information on stats, it seems like that would be your starting point.

I wouldn't keep pushing this but we can't work together on this if we don't all agree on a basic range and concept here.  And I'd love for it to be a team effort.

 

*Edit: Its possible that by "legendary" he means characters like Conan, Tarzan, and Doc Savage who technically are greater than human but people don't treat as "superhuman."  In other words, real life examples aren't likely to exceed 25, but literary ones do sometimes up to around 30 and are possible in the game genre even if ridiculous for real world examples.

With that as the standard we can build benchmarks to include the concept: literary examples that exceed realistic human limits but still aren't quite superheroes.

[megaplayboy]

With the adjusted STR range from 10 to 50:

STR 10: lift 100kg

STR 15: lift 150 kg

STR 20: lift 200 kg

STR 25: lift 300 kg

STR 30: lift 400 kg

STR 35: lift 600 kg

STR 40: lift 800 kg

STR 45: lift 1200 kg

STR 50: lift 1600 kg

Then it doubles every +5 after 50.  Which means it takes a STR 80 to lift 100 tons.  

Overhead press should be about 40% of the above, per The Ultimate Brick.  Which means the "real world" cap is a shade above 35 on this scale, and a "cinematic" super-strong but still vaguely human character could go higher than that.  

 

I can see using that scale for a heroic campaign, along with upscaling the limits for DEX and CON accordingly.  

 

[massey]

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I wouldn't keep pushing this but we can't work together on this if we don't all agree on a basic range and concept here.  And I'd love for it to be a team effort.

 

I'm sorry, but I think you're never going to get agreement on this.  It's heavily dependent on genre and people's own campaign standards.  For instance, people are arguing about real world weight limits, and completely ignoring Seeker's 25 Str.  That's certainly their privilege to do so, but it shows we've all got different preferences.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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 For instance, people are arguing about real world weight limits, and completely ignoring Seeker's 25 Str.

Rainbow Archer had 30 Dex, what superheroes are given doesn't really even connect to what the concept of this project is.  Captain America in Marvel Comics is supposedly the peak of human possibility but in the Official Marvel Handbook he was listed as being able to bench 800 pounds!!! 

Because they are superheroes, beyond normal human capability.

[massey]

Rainbow Archer had a 35 Dex.   But isn't that also kind of the point?  Stats will vary tremendously based on what genre you're in.

 

So, let's take Slasher Movie World.  Halloween, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, etc.  In Slasher Movie World, everybody has straight 10s.  It doesn't matter if you're the star athlete, the nerdy kid, or the slut.  The only person who can put up any kind of fight against the killer is the Final Girl.  The biggest, brawniest guy will flail about ineffectually as soon as the killer shows up.

 

In such a movie, the physical differences of the normal human characters are diminished.  Maybe they might range from an 8 to a 13, but that's it.  Everyone is stuck in an ultra-low powered genre, except for the killer and the Final Girl.  They're the only ones who really deserve real stats.

 

However, think about the original Spider-Man movie.  Specifically, I'm talking about this scene (1:10 into the video):

 

 

 

Flash Thompson punches hard.  He dents in the locker.  I remember people at the time commenting that he might have killed Peter with that punch.  To properly portray Flash, you should probably give him a 15 to 18 Str, and maybe a couple of martial art maneuvers.

 

[Greywind]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Rainbow Archer had 30 Dex, what superheroes are given doesn't really even connect to what the concept of this project is.  Captain America in Marvel Comics is supposedly the peak of human possibility but in the Official Marvel Handbook he was listed as being able to bench 800 pounds!!! 

Because they are superheroes, beyond normal human capability.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHErVBX7UDM

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Flash Thompson punches hard.  He dents in the locker.

 

Meh I saw a kid do that in high school.  The only superheroic thing that Flash demonstrates is a lack of broken knuckles and bleeding.  Maybe a very high PD