Help need: Multiform

[Hauer]

Im starting with champions and dont understand few things. For example: multiform. It gives player *gratis* points? 
If I have 100 CP i can spend it on powers or spend all on Multiform, so I grain "normal person" who can transform to superhero "worth" 500 CP? What I dont understand? Where is weekspot? 

[Chris Goodwin]

Remember, the GM has to okay the character first.  Just because the rules say you can do something doesn't mean that a GM will allow it in their game.  

 

The point of Multiform isn't to be able to get "free points" (he says, glaring at his 1986 self).  It's to have a way to be able to switch into multiple forms and to have a way to appropriately charge points to do that.  There are a number of warnings to and safeguards from the GM that go into using Multiform.  

[steriaca]

Multiform is not for beginning game masters. I advise beginning game masters to Nancy a character with one.

 

There are reasons for Multiform. It is the best to repersent someone who not only changes powers, but personalities also.

[Hauer]

Thanks for answers  Chris, where I can find examples of warnings and safeguards for Multiform :>? 

[Cassandra]

Say you have a Tony Stark character  who has several different types of Powered Armor.  Mutliform: 4x 250 Points would give you four different sets of armor for any situation you could think of.

 

I used the 5th Edition Rules for it's cost.

[Hauer]

So, You treat every armor like another form? Intresting... some limitation on change form is nesesery in that case, 

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Hauer said:

So, You treat every armor like another form? Intresting... some limitation on change form is nesesery in that case, 

Depends on the source Tony. Base armor under my skin Tony can get away with not buying a focus and going with multiform on Only In Alternative Idenity except for a few basic powers in all forms. 1980's Tony still had to carry that briefcase around with him wherever he goes.

[Hauer]

Im at begining of adventure with HERO System, but I dont recognize diferent power armors as multiform :/

[steriaca]

Characters change over time. The original Iron Man was that he carried everything but the chest plate in a briefcase. He needed to always wear the chest plate because it was keeping his heart beating.

 

Later, he got surgery to fix that, then improved his technology. The pinical of the Iron Man armor was when thanks to nanotechnology, he could reduce the base armor to be broken down into his own pores, so it can bubble up from his skin.

 

I admit, it's about as confusing as teen Iron Man.

[Cassandra]

23 hours ago, Hauer said:

So, You treat every armor like another form? Intresting... some limitation on change form is nesesery in that case, 

 

There is an inherent half phase to change form unless you buy instant change.  Iron Man 3 was the best example of this power.  The suits flying around without him can be considered followers.  If Tony Stark is built on 350 Points he could have Followers: 16x 150+ Disadvantages for 16 250 Points sets of Powered Armor acting independently for 60 Points.

[Hauer]

I have more sence as follower. If Stark is in SE Asia, but have few power armors in his lab in US, is dificult to "change form" as "half phase". Power armor considered as follower is not bad idea

[JmOz]

Actually the Iron Man cartoon from the 90's show a good example of this. Tony was a Multiform who would transition armors in the field.  James was an OIF (maybe OIHID)

[steriaca]

The Hulk is the classic version of multiform. Same with Sha....shoot, lets call him by his name, Captain Marvel.

Well, other similar characters also. Like the female turned male superhero from Savage Dragon (forgot there name).

[assault]

Here's a point that sometimes causes arguments, but is BtB: the base form (the one that pays the points for the Multiform power) is not necessarily the one built on the most points.

That means that the Hulk doesn't pay points to turn into puny Banner; puny Banner pays points to turn into the Hulk.

 

The idea is that you don't pay points to become less powerful.

 

Of course, arguably you are getting the abilities possessed by the Banner form for free. The offset is that the Banner form is less powerful, and transforming into the Hulk can theoretically be prevented.

 

As always, the GM should look very hard at characters who use this kind of construct, and as steriaca suggested, say no if they are unsure.

[Hauer]

So You say that alternate form (Multiform) could be build on more CP? for example Hulk form cost much more CP than Banner form? 

[assault]

18 hours ago, Hauer said:

So You say that alternate form (Multiform) could be build on more CP? for example Hulk form cost much more CP than Banner form? 

Yes. Check the rulebook.

[Cassandra]

On 8/1/2019 at 11:32 AM, Hauer said:

I have more sence as follower. If Stark is in SE Asia, but have few power armors in his lab in US, is dificult to "change form" as "half phase". Power armor considered as follower is not bad idea

 

That's where the OIF (-1/2) bonus comes in.  As we saw in Captain America: Civil War Tony didn't have his Armor when the Winter Soldier broke out of containment.  A -1/2 limitations means you don't get  to use your powers half the time.  A -1 for an OAF means that at some point someone will make a grab for the thing in a fight.  Wonder Woman knows that from the number of times she's been bound by her magic lasso.

[A Brand New Troll]

I am not sure what rules you are using but my Big Blue Book says:

"A character with this Special Power can have several
different forms, each with its own personality, Characteristics,
and Powers. The player must make up a different full
character for each different form the character can take."

So a single Tony Stark wouldn't use multiform for his armors, each armor doesn't give Tony a new personality.

 

Also:

"The maximum total points
the second form can have is equal to the total points in the
base form, minus all Multiform costs."

So you cant take a 100 point character and multiform a 500 point character because the second can't be higher than the prime. 

 

 

 

[Greywind]

I wonder how much Independent Tony had to pay for all those armors in IM3...

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, A Brand New Troll said:

I am not sure what rules you are using but my Big Blue Book says:

"A character with this Special Power can have several
different forms, each with its own personality, Characteristics,
and Powers. The player must make up a different full
character for each different form the character can take."

So a single Tony Stark wouldn't use multiform for his armors, each armor doesn't give Tony a new personality.

 

Also:

"The maximum total points
the second form can have is equal to the total points in the
base form, minus all Multiform costs."

So you cant take a 100 point character and multiform a 500 point character because the second can't be higher than the prime. 

 

 

 

 

 

You are not wrong.

 

However, there have been three rules editions (2.5 editions?) since then.  Starting with 5, the base character no longer had to be the most powerful character.  The accepted reasoning for this (we will never know the _actual_ reason, as the other does not discuss this, ever) is how annoying it was for all of us making multiform characters to have to _pay_ points to _lose_ powers and abilities.  I don't know how "brand new" you actually are, so don't take this as sarcasm or anything along those lines:

 

I have a small reputation here for _hating_ change (I haven't left second edition yet, and your antique BBB was the fourth edition) _and_ for putting story and concept ahead of of anything it says in the "must build" or "Must buy" or "points go here" parts of the rules, and even _I_ thought that idea was BS:  the base character should pay costs because he is the essence of who the character is: what do you do when you're not super-heroing?  Well, I use my tremendously expensive civilian ID to relax, then change back into my "normal self" to go fight crime."

 

It doesn't sit right.

 

 

_However_, in the interest of complete fairness, it should be noted that the newer "the most expensive guy does not have to pick up the tab" editions have even more "Dear GM" letters about keeping a sharp eye on this, and how easily it can be abused, and don't be afraid to say "get that crap out of here!" to a character built to maximize the raping of the multiform rules.

 

 

As a general side note:  I see a _lot_ of multiform being combined with "only in hero / alternate ID"  being laid in front of me, which will get a thumbs-down every time.  Pick one.  You can't have both.

 

The Hell of it is you can simulate a lot of what multiform does with a power pool and regenerated lists that draw from that pool.  Why, at the end of the day, and appropriate power pool and regenerated powers from it are really the only thing you need: look at the number of fan-made characters on the web that do just that:  "Here are his defining traits, and we're going to lump everything else into a power pool because we can't afford to build him straight out."

 

But that's radically off-topic, isn't it?  

 

[steriaca]

I did Lady Heart as a multipower/Only In Alternative Identity thing myself. I'm happy with that.

[Surrealone]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

I have a small reputation here for _hating_ change (I haven't left second edition yet, and your antique BBB was the fourth edition) _and_ for putting story and concept ahead of of anything it says in the "must build" or "Must buy" or "points go here" parts of the rules

Ya' think?  LOL 😆

[A Brand New Troll]

We bought 5, we looked at 5, we went back to and stayed on 4.

 

We have been playing for... a while; but the vast majority of our games have been fantasy with well established and comfortable rules of what our GM likes and to the best of my knowledge nobody in our group has ever used multiform. However we are taking a walk on the wild side with a new campaign and using a couple of the heretofore discouraged/banned/inefficient powers and since no one had used multiform I ran with it, which led me to this site and this page.

 

As far as using Multiform to change into your superhero ID, that is not how I picture that character to be created at all; I would build my powers and use the hell out of the Only In Hero ID disad. I consider Multiform to be: Jeckyl and Hyde/ Banner and Hulk/ Maybe a werewolf though there are other ways to build that... etc 

 

21 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

your antique BBB was the fourth edition

 

Antique?? It's in its prime. Though it is definitely falling apart.

 

While we're at it, I will throw in my question which led me here and I believe I know the answer to, but thought I would bounce it off other peeps: let's just say my multiform has charges that last an hour, can I multiform back to prime character before the hour is up?

 

 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, A Brand New Troll said:

We bought 5, we looked at 5, we went back to and stayed on 4.

 

I know the feeling.  

 

The fact is that "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it" is still pretty solid advice.  The problem is the number of people trying to convince you that because it's broke for them, then it's broken for you, too.  If it was broken for me, I wouldn't still use it!   And of course, if what's broken for you is a lack of simplicity, well you're totally mated with if you try to fix that by going forward.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, A Brand New Troll said:

we are taking a walk on the wild side with a new campaign and using a couple of the heretofore discouraged/banned/inefficient powers and since no one had used multiform I ran with it, which led me to this site and this page.

 

As far as using Multiform to change into your superhero ID, that is not how I picture that character to be created at all; I would build my powers and use the hell out of the Only In Hero ID disad. I consider Multiform to be: Jeckyl and Hyde/ Banner and Hulk/ Maybe a werewolf though there are other ways to build that... etc 

 

Ditto. Honestly, I have never needed Multiform, even building Jeckyl / Hyde type characters. "Only in x ID" has been around forever, and it didn't suddenly stop working because someone added a new option.  I have similar problems with Shapeshift (no: let us _NOT_ open that particular can of worms right now!    ), the short version being "we shifted shape for years without a complex (and expensive) new set of rules that don't really get the job done anyway.  Why do I need them?  (again, this applies to me and mine:  thus far, none of these "problems" were actual problems.  There was no impetus to move forward.  :/

 

 

2 hours ago, A Brand New Troll said:

Antique?? It's in its prime. Though it is definitely falling apart.

 

Most of my own BBBs have the same issue.  I suggest two of three things:

 

One of the following two:

 

1) I know we all did this as kids, but the fact is it's still viable:  get a large binder with an over-sized cover and some sheet protectors.  Gently and lovingly finish the job and seal it into a notebook.  Not only do you still have your book, in a fashion (many binders have clear front and rear pockets that can be stretched to accommodate the covers), but it's going to stay open to a particular page way better than it ever did before.  Plus it's almost completely coffee-proof now!

 

2) invest in a couple of wooden clamps, straighten and align all the pages as they should be, and inject the spine with wood glue.  Secure the book and wait a couple of days.  It worked great for my original BBB, though I confess the wait was nerve-wracking, wondering many wonders of how I had just glued the entire book shut, etc...  

 

 

 

Pick one of any of the following:

 

1) snoop around ebay, Amazon, and your favorite book-finding service for the paperback version of the BBB (or even just the "Hero System Rules Book" from 4e.  They were _way_ tougher than the hardbacks.  All of mine are _fine_.  Shelf and play worn, but no loose pages at all.

 

 

One thing to consider:  Never shelf a hardback vertically.  I know it seems wrong, but the covers are taller than the pages, meaning that he pages are constantly "hanging," pulling against their bindings.  Guess what that leads to?  If it's a hardback you want to keep, store it laid flat.

 

2 hours ago, A Brand New Troll said:

 

While we're at it, I will throw in my question which led me here and I believe I know the answer to, but thought I would bounce it off other peeps: let's just say my multiform has charges that last an hour, can I multiform back to prime character before the hour is up?

 

Unless you have a disadvantage or Limitations that says otherwise, then yes.

 

If you have an electric car that has a charge lasting for an hour, can you stop it, or do you have to keep driving until the hour is up?  Same sort of question.

 

Hell, you can ever build a Limitation or Disadvantage that _forces_ you to change back at any time.  I was never a fan, but I seem to recall from the few I've read over the years (like seven or eight back in the 70s?  I don't know.  It was all army and desert and boring as Hell) that the Hulk turned back to Banner if he was knocked out.  I suppose that's just a matter of not having the power bought Persistent, but still, it sets a sort of precedent.