unclevlad Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 4 hours ago, Pariah said: Looking at the Hazards table on p. 163, I see several references to "Life Support (extreme environments)"...which I don't see if the description of the Power. A little help? Eww. You're right. If radiation is 5, then extreme heat like the blast furnace should be 5. I wouldn't think Ron intended that list to be complete. On 2/29/2020 at 11:19 AM, Pariah said: Quick question: At the 15 point level, the Vulnerability Situation specifies double effect for one specific Power. Does that mean "Blast", as in, the character will take double damage from any and all Blast attacks, regardless of special effects, Advantages, etc.? Or does that mean, for example, double effect from a Blast with a given special effect (like fire)? Then, at the 25 point level, the character would take double effect from all fire-based attacks (e.g., Blast, Flash, Drain, etc.)? Does that make sense? Maybe let me ask it a different way: I'm thinking that if a character Hicks double effect from a blast with psychic special effects (i.e., Ego-based), that's 15 points. If the character takes double effect from all psychic attacks (the aforementioned Blast, Telepathy, Mind Control, etc.), that's 25 points. Is this a reasonable interpretation? There's only 1 example character, and it's showing Vulnerability: Drain. I think, if you take Blast, it's ALL Blasts. Translation? Never take Vulnerability: Blast. The 25 point vulnerability would seem to require a special effect which can be associated with more than one power. Electrical powers can be Blast or Flash, or a Strike tied to an Entangle, for example. Yes, they are nasty; you can't buy a small Vulnerability. That's in keeping with the rest of the system...Ron's painting with a big, bold brush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 My immediate thought, then, is never to take Vulnerability at all. Which is fine. I actually get the most mileage out of Hunted and Psychological. Hunteds serve as plot hooks, and Psychological Situations help to define and explain who the character is as a person Based on what I've been reading, I feel like this is in the spirit of what the game is trying to accomplish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 I largely agree. Vulnerability is an extremely dangerous Complication. There's things you could take that might work, tho...Images, Entangle, maybe Flash. I'd never take it for Mind Control; in fact, I'd probably never *allow* it for Mind Control, unless there's a VERY good reason. That just feels like baiting the GM, daring him to use it...then when he does, the character is HOSED. Similarly, I'd be leery about allowing it for Telepathy; it'd be VERY easy to get into the "you have no secrets!!" level, which means the entire party's secrets are at risk. To be sure, it's not like this would be readily known, but the consequences are rather broad. At the very least, I'd want group buy-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 I might also point out...how often did players take a vulnerability against something common, like fire? And I think it'd be fine to negociate a somewhat narrower interpretation on, say, Vulnerability: Blast. Keep it broad, but not necessarily ALL blasts. Energy only, perhaps. That's still pretty serious. Blast is insanely prevalent; if you're not doing a brick or martial artist, then odds are, you've got a Blast. And at the least, Vul: Blast would want to be limited to super Blasts, you'd think, cuz that 2d or 3d piercing handgun becomes *nasty* when you're talking 2x BODY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 Not really sure where to post this, so I'm posting it here. Reasonable point/power levels under Champions Now rules: - Attacks: 8-10d6 (or equivalent) - Defense: 18-25, with up to 5-8 Resistant if desired - Body: 10-15 (any more than 15 seems prohibitively expensive) - Speed: 2-3 for most characters; maybe 4 for speedsters and Martial Artists What do you think, folks? Too high? Too low? Just right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starshield Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 The math seems consistent with the goal of creating beginning characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starshield Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 Re-reading the book, I am impressed again with the emphasis on the use of special effects throughout the rules. Something that should be remembered no matter what edition of Champions you play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted May 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 In your game, sure. Personally, my builds routinely blow through all of those limits except Body. Usually with 100 ratios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted May 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 A more thoughtful reply: Individual games will, of course, vary. What is appropriate for one may not be for another. House rules apply, if you like. By itself, that means that trying to set default standards for all/most games is a mistake. There is also the problem that the economics of the rules as written do not enforce the suggested limits. It is possible to build perfectly valid, non-cheesy, non-abusive, simple-as-you-could-possibly-want-them characters that do not conform to them. By enforcing these limits, you are in fact adding an extra layer of (house) rules on top of the existing rules. That's fine, but that is what you are doing. I could discuss the source material, but that depends on what source material you are using. It should be enough to say that an open slather approach is as legitimate as a more constrained one, and vice versa, if we are trying to reflect "comic book reality". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted May 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 A somewhat separate point: how meaningful is balance in a game which is mostly about the PC's situations? Does it matter that one character has 3 Spd and another 6, if the game is about Psych situations, DNPCs, Secret Identities and what have you? Even without that, while it's nice to be the group's "Superman", it's also cool to be "Batman", or the Chief from the Doom Patrol. And no character can stand alone anyway. There are just too many ways for a character to get taken out. You always need friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 3 hours ago, assault said: In your game, sure. Personally, my builds routinely blow through all of those limits except Body. Usually with 100 ratios. Not limits. I never said limits. I'm looking for a starting point. What I'm wondering is, what are people's averages looking like? You've stated that your builds are consistently higher than these. How much higher? 12d6 damage, on average? 15d6? What do your characters' defenses look like? Are you building on 200? That kind of thing. Looking at the half-dozen or so characters Ron has presented in the book itself, I think these levels look like what his campaign has been using. It seems a bit underpowered compared to 4-6 Ed, but whatever. If that's what it is, then that's what it is. I'm just looking for some frame of reference here. The fact that I don't currently have a gaming group is complicating things for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrosyncretic Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 8 hours ago, Pariah said: Reasonable point/power levels under Champions Now rules: - Attacks: 8-10d6 (or equivalent) - Defense: 18-25, with up to 5-8 Resistant if desired - Body: 10-15 (any more than 15 seems prohibitively expensive) - Speed: 2-3 for most characters; maybe 4 for speedsters and Martial Artists I don't think there's any mathematical sweet spot and the group sets it's own standard by what it chooses. That said, these are close to what I see in my game -- but that might be the legacy of playing 4th ed. The only exception is that resistant defense is often zero and rarely more than 3. I know that focus is on building a character as envisioned. So beware spending too much thought on covering every basic action (eg offense, defense, ranged, movement). Pariah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted May 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 1 hour ago, nitrosyncretic said: I know that focus is on building a character as envisioned. So beware spending too much thought on covering every basic action (eg offense, defense, ranged, movement). That kind of thing is part of envisioning the character, surely. What does the character do? What are their powers? Or vice versa. The character has to be functional within the game, and the group of player characters. They have to be able to contribute, otherwise they are a nuisance who only gets to tag along because they own a PC badge. In broad terms, in an action/adventure genre, the group generally has to: gather information, get to where "the action" is ("the action" is often, though not necessarily, a combat), move around the location of "the action", and contribute usefully to "the action". If "the action" is a combat, that means they have to be able to engage in offensive activities and not get taken out by opponents. These are all things that need to be thought about when deciding on what character to play. There is no reason not to play Air Wave or the Red Bee, for example, despite their vaguely ludicrous powers - both of them can investigate and fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsplay Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 I don't automatically take Vulnerability, but if it makes sense, it's an easy go to. Particularly if I'm already squeezing my brain trying to come up with another Psych. If you look at Champions 3e characters, a lot of them have Vulnerabilities. You might think, well, if I take that, I'm going to end up paste. That's likely to happen anyway. If you're a flying blaster, it's all fun and games until you are Flashed and Entangled. Vulnerability can actually be an asset, because if you have a Vulnerability to fire, and the GM brings out a fire enemy, you know, "Okay, this one is gunning for me." Someone mentioned Hunted as an easy option you can take instead. The inability to Presence Attack a Hunted, IMO, actually makes them potentially more dangerous. Presence is situational but can affect anybody. With a Hunted, there will be baddies you have no choice but to take head-on in some fashion. Pariah and assault 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted June 22, 2020 Report Share Posted June 22, 2020 Okay, another quick question: Does Shrinking have any effect on perception rolls and/or combat (e.g., ' to hit') rolls? Nothing specific is listed in the power description, and I haven't been able to re-read chapters 10-11 thoroughly enough to see if the issue is addressed there. A little help (so to speak)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsplay Posted June 22, 2020 Report Share Posted June 22, 2020 6 hours ago, Pariah said: Okay, another quick question: Does Shrinking have any effect on perception rolls and/or combat (e.g., ' to hit') rolls? Nothing specific is listed in the power description, and I haven't been able to re-read chapters 10-11 thoroughly enough to see if the issue is addressed there. A little help (so to speak)? Not inherently. I could see building in some Missile Deflection if the character agilely changes sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted July 7, 2020 Report Share Posted July 7, 2020 As written, it appears to me that Blast bought with the Ego-Based advantage will do Body damage by default (mitigated by the appropriate Specialized Defense, of course). If I wanted an Ego-Based Blast that only did Knockout damage, would the Constrained limitation be appropriate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrosyncretic Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 On 7/7/2020 at 4:59 PM, Pariah said: As written, it appears to me that Blast bought with the Ego-Based advantage will do Body damage by default (mitigated by the appropriate Specialized Defense, of course). If I wanted an Ego-Based Blast that only did Knockout damage, would the Constrained limitation be appropriate? Ego-based only changes the value used for the attack roll. It doesn't change the defense against an attack. If you want that, you need to take Severe as well. (Ego-based, when applied to a defense, however, makes that defense work against Ego effects.) Pariah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 Okay, silly question, maybe. On page 179, one of the listed maneuvers reads as follows: "Assist +0 -1 Requires simultaneity; provides offensive value for another attacker’s use" What is the offensive value? +1? Is this covered in detail somewhere and I've just missed it? (That's entirely possible.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrosyncretic Posted August 3, 2020 Report Share Posted August 3, 2020 The person being assisted uses the assister's OCV or ECV instead of their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted August 3, 2020 Report Share Posted August 3, 2020 So if the martial artist with the 15 Dexterity wants to help the brick with the 11 Dexterity....interesting. Does the CV include Skill Levels, or just the base CV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrosyncretic Posted August 5, 2020 Report Share Posted August 5, 2020 I have found that the best starting point for answering rules questions from games that Ron writes is to take the text literally and with a minimum of assumptions. In this case it says "provides offensive value for another attacker's use." As one person's offensive value is Dex or Ego plus allocated levels -- my answer is yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 Makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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