Chris Goodwin

I have something a little different in the works. I hope to post it in the next day or two....

Well said, sentry0. 
 
Personally, if invited to a table of Hero System, I wouldn’t mind which edition I would be playing at all as long as I’m playing it. 

There is a distinct difference between the two:
 
Having to override INT with Mental Illusions:
 
From the attacker's point of view:  I am a masterful mentalist who has successfully implanted the image in my opponent's mind.  I have no been flat-out denied the use of my power.
 
From the defender's point of view:  Good Gods!  A dragon!  (if the attacker gets his pool high enough, of course).   If he does not, then it goes something like "Very clever.  But I won't fall for your deceptions!  Take that, vile sorcerer!"
 
 
Having to override EGO to actually make the illusion in the first place:
 
From the attacker's point of view (should the villain's pool be too low to overwhelm the target's Ego:  What?  I cast mental illusion!  Why the Hell is it not working?  I have wasted spell points three times for _nothing_!
 
From the target's POV, should the dice pool not be sufficient to overwhelm his Ego:   What's that guy doing?  Why is he waving his arms around and chanting like that?  Shouldn't something be happening?  Well, I'm not going to let this opportunity go by; I hear he's a powerful illusionist.  I hope he doesn't try casting an illusion into my mind....
 
From the target's POV should the dice pool overwhelm his Ego:   Crap!  Another dragon!
 
The absolute war-game results of either are : fooled by illusion / not fooled by illusion.  If I wanted to play a war-game, I'd be happy with it.  I am _not_ a mathematician, so I'm not sure how mathematicians feel about this.  Is it "the final number is identical; it doesn't matter how you arrived at it."?  If that's the case I can see why it wouldn't bother them: we can keep playing Taxes and Textbooks and remove all context or setting pretenses and have the exact same good time, right?  It's all about that final number.
 
Even as a non-mathemetician, however, I completely believe that some formulae are inherently more elegant or more beautiful than others; I believe the details of the process are equally-- and sometimes more-- important.  Those details are where the fluff comes from.  Those are the points that define the story because those points are what is _actually_ going on, moment to moment.  Those are the parts that separate RPGs from war-games, period.   Wargames are simple and dull: no matter how complex or complicated the mechanics, it all boils down that final number without regard for how you got there.  No matter how beautiful the miniatures, you could replace them with a handful of nuts and washers scattered across the table, or even poker chips-- some marked with X; some with O.  And it doesn't affect _any_ part of the game at all, because it's not about the story at all.
 
I would think that, particularly as I know I'm not the only writer on this board, I would find at least one other person who understands the value of the process itself.
 
 
 
 
So, up until 1982?  Or 1985?
 
 
 
I'm not going to say you are wrong, because your points are all valid.  But, if I may, _to me_, they do not work _quite_ that way: the attacker "gets what he paid for:" the ability to put the image in a target's mind.  It then-- _after_ the successful implantation of the illusion-- becomes a contest of his skill at creating an convincing illusion against the target's ability to realize he is being deceived.  I find the original mechanic much better represents how I see the power working.  Is that because I've used it that way from the get-go?  I straight-up cannot answer that and be assured that I am being completely impartial.  I can say, with reasonably impartiality, that I do _prefer_ the way it was introduced because at no point can the mechanic be interpreted as "your power doesn't work:" the illusion _is_ in the target's mind, and he is aware of it.
 
a couple of questions- and this is just a thought exercise; I'm not going to pursue it very deeply here simply because I haven't the time.  
Why does a Mental Illusion automatically work against all five senses, yet a Light Illusion / Image have to be bought per sense?
Does Captain Bloodhound get to use his "targeting smell 23-" when caught in a PRE Attack?  He should be able to smell when his attacker is bluffing, I would think.
 
Personally-- and, just as you noted your opinion on how this works; I am clearly admitting that this is my own opinion-- I find the old mechanic worked a lot better at explaining it:
 
If your image was so...  forgive the word, but I've used "overwhelm" a lot lately, and it grows trite-- so dazzling as be believable--
 
well, under the original mechanic, it's because it was so convincing that you didn't question it.  The "X times INT" made it a matter almost of an skill v skill:  this image was so instantly convincing-- to you-- that it just didn't occur to you to bother investigating it: it was just another apartment building on your walk to work; you knew it was there, and this time you just happened to notice it.
 
Gah-- I wish I could put that into better words.  Let me try this:  There are thousands of things that we perceive every single day and _never_ question, no matter what.  We take them as real, though.  For example, I have _never_ been to Europe.  I have never seen a a candiru.  I have never eaten brie.
 
However, I have absolutely no doubt that all of those things exist.  If I were knocked unconscious and taken to a strange new city before I awoke, and someone told me I was in the British town of -- hell...   What's a british town that isn't London?  Is there a Halifax?  Anyway, the british town of "Not London," I'd take that as a given.  Even if I woke up with a GPS in my pocket it wouldn't occur to me to question where I was for a bit.  There are other things more pressing:  Am I okay?  Am I injured?  Do I have my wallet?  Where is the nearest phone or police agency?
 
If I were swimming and attacked by the candiru in its famous fashion, I would not first roll my X-ray vision to verify that it wasn't actually some sort of alien probing device: I would---, well, from what I've heard, suffer immeasurable agony and beg for medical attention before doing _anything_ else, so this may-- no; actually, it's _not_ a bad example:  it's a _great_ example!  I totally believe that illusion I'm suffering to the point where something other than "fact checking" has become my number one priority.
 
I have never eaten brie.  Not once.  If someone fed me condensed and sweetened milk that has sat open on the front porch in the sun for eight days and thickened just slightly and told me it was brie, I would not demand a closer look or a comparison sample.  I would decide that I don't like brie, and never seek it out as long as I lived.  If I _had_ eaten brie before, or even just smelled it (it's a cheese, so I am making the assumption it has a distinct smell) and been fed this stuff anyway, I still probably wouldn't question that this was brie.  I would think "well this is terrible brie," and leave it at that.
 
The point is we fool ourselves daily by deciding that something is "real enough" and take it at that.  In a setting where the fantastical is ordinary, I heartily believe that we would simply do the same with more fantastical things and situations.
 
More to the point:  how many times when your players walk up to the castle do they announce "I make a perception roll to check if that's really a castle."?  Captain Bloodhound can have all the smelling in the world.  If he doesn't choose to use it, it's no good to him.  Announcing "make a perception roll!" leads to "oh; I better use my super-scenting, as it has the best PER."  Yeah, it's wrong, but we every single one of us do it, so let's just roll with the honesty of it.  Any time the GM asks "was your forcefield on?" the answer is _always_ "Well, yes; of course it is!" no matter what the reality is.  You're character could have just walked out of the hopper in the men's room at Home Depot; if the GM asks if your force field was on, you're going to say yes.
 
A mechanic that goes against INT allows the attacker a chance to overwhelm the target's common sense, if only for a moment.  Give the player the chance to decide "Wait!  Does it _smell_ like a decomposing zombie horde?"  Let him be his character.  Let him make decisions for his character.  Let him decide if his character is savvy enough to double-check what he's seeing.
 
If that doesn't work-- for some reason you prefer a playerless, dice-only resolution, use any PER above ....   well, a quick check says the average "high" PER in my player files is 16-, so let's say that anything over 16 becomes a modifier of some sort-- perhaps apply it directly to the INT score that must be overwhelmed.  Not my bag of sticks, but again: we each prefer different things. 
 
 
And I look at it differently:  If he is not super-smart, it should _increase_ the odds that he gets fooled.  If he is super-perceptive, that should increase the odds that he figures it out, and likely decrease the time it takes him to do so, particularly if he _is_ smart enough to double-check.
 
 
 
I agree completely.  It does indeed come down to what works for the people playing the game.  The current mechanic doesn't work at all for me-- possibly because almost every super I run for has at least one schtick that grants them roughly 16- or less as a perception roll, making the 4e and later version of images a complete waste of points for any villain wishing to consider it.  "Sweet!  this power will totally work 1.9 percent of the time!"
 
(unless it's a flashlight, of course, in which case it will fool them into thinking there is light 100 percent of the time    )
 
 
 
 
Considering Change Environment doesn't require a PER roll to "disbelieve"  (sorry; that was my favorite thing to lovingly rip on in D&D.  There was just something about hearing a player hastily yell "I disbelieve!" that cracked me up every time.  We should build a HERO version of that.    ) and everything will be one-hundred percent real one-hundred percent of the time,  I think ultimately, at least in Supers, it's the far-more cost-effective method of successfully making heroes think they are sinking in quicksand: just put some quicksand there.  Boom.  Done.
 
 
 
 
 
I can't find fault with that, in anyone, for any edition.  Everyone has a favorite edition, regardless of which it was or even why it was their favorite.  I tend to think that finding fault in that is very much the pot turning unto the kettle, hands raised defensively, shrieking "away!  Begone!  Get the away, Blackface-d Monstrosity!"   People like what they like, and it's silly to hold it against them.  The only real line I draw is when a discussion of differing opinions, like this one has become, moves to an attempt to either vilify the other opinion, or forcibly push an opinion to overrule the others.  That's just jackassery.  That is probably why Hugh is one of my favorite debate / discussion partners: he will carry on as long as you're willing to debate something, but I can't think of a single instance of him ever actually crossing that line.     And he is exasperatingly meticulous, so if you're not careful, you might learn something about your own opinions.
 
 
 

I think what Duke is getting at is, in Champions II it was Light Illusions; you rolled dice and compared it to INT.  However, I did a bit of digging, and in 3rd edition at least, both Mental Illusions and Telepathy were compared to INT (not EGO) as well.  Mind Control and Mind Scan were both compared to EGO, as expected.
 
(It was called Images in FH 1e, with the same mechanic as in Champions II; FH also had Sounds, which was the same mechanic but for... sound.)

Sorry, Hugh;
 
I hit the wrong quote button and didn't get it all in one post. Mea culpa.
 
My question is "missing since when?"  
 
If first appeared in 1982 in the 2e supplement Champions II.  It used a mechanic similar too Mental Illusions, PRE Attack, etc-- compare the dice pool total to a specific characteristic of the target(s). If that number was equalled or exceeded, then the image was believable.  The target multiple was based on the complexity and size of the illusion.
 
The power was republished in 85 in the first edition of Fantasy HERO, and renamed as "Images."  It used the same mechanic, with the same verbiage about when the image is or is not believable.  The publishing of the spell "Sounds" added the idea of applying illusions against other senses.
 
I do not know where else (or if) it was published prior to 4e.  I do know that for some reason, in 4e, it was given a singularly unique mechanic: one which required assigning a singularly unique function to the PER roll.  I can't for the life of me figure out why.
 
And I see that as I type this, Chris has replied, so I'm going to just post this as-is because I'm really curious to see what he has to say.
 
 
Duke
 

It (Mental Illusions /Light Illusions/ Images / (Sounds?  Didn't exist until 3e and FH, but the mechanic is the same)) was compared to INT in 2e as well.  {The "dialogue" above was meant to represent a player learning the rules (and thus guessing "Ego or something"), then giving up in frustration.  Sorry about that)
 
I much prefer the idea of comparing even Mental Illusions to INT, as it suggests that the caster was skilled enough to create the illusion and place it in the mind of his target, and also that his target is clever enough to understand that it is merely a deception.   Comparing it to EGO "works," mechanically, but gives a different feel:  it suggests that the caster was totally unable to create the illusion in the first place, which robs him of some of his schtick.  Yeah, it's a quibble: totally unimportant to tactician or the simulationist, but extremely critical to those for whom the "feel" of the game is important.  (No surprise that I fall into that last camp, is it?    )
 

How about a Multipower with two slots: one is the regular Blast, the other is Blast, Only Vs. Entangle?

I think what Duke is getting at is, in Champions II it was Light Illusions; you rolled dice and compared it to INT.  However, I did a bit of digging, and in 3rd edition at least, both Mental Illusions and Telepathy were compared to INT (not EGO) as well.  Mind Control and Mind Scan were both compared to EGO, as expected.
 
(It was called Images in FH 1e, with the same mechanic as in Champions II; FH also had Sounds, which was the same mechanic but for... sound.)

I think what Duke is getting at is, in Champions II it was Light Illusions; you rolled dice and compared it to INT.  However, I did a bit of digging, and in 3rd edition at least, both Mental Illusions and Telepathy were compared to INT (not EGO) as well.  Mind Control and Mind Scan were both compared to EGO, as expected.
 
(It was called Images in FH 1e, with the same mechanic as in Champions II; FH also had Sounds, which was the same mechanic but for... sound.)

Seriously though the Master mind, iirc, was the best. 50pts and your villain can have anything he or she needs or wants!

New Dice roller with support for killing attacks, 1/2d6 and stun modifiers for 6e/5e.
 

Unless I am mistaken, nothing in Mental Defense mandates that it be on all the time.  Nothing says it can't be on, either, but I don't think it has to be assumed that one cannot let "friendlies" send something to you. 
 
(yeah: this is going to open a can of worms. ) 
 
 

Man, I spent all my free time this evening (not a lot of it today) hunting this thread clarify the vehicles house rules we use just a bit (another thread prodded the memory that I was going to do that some time back), but now that I'm here, I'm out of time.
 
So I'll leave you with something that isn't really a house rule, but was part of a campaign rule that sort of happened by accident:  Roofing contractors in Phoenix, Arizona are all dead.  All of them.  Zombies, if you must, but they aren't zombies: they are well-aware of their suffering.  In the campaign this came from, those who received Salvation prior to death went to Heaven.  Those who did not spent eternity as roofers in Phoenix.
 
 
Gotta run.  
 
Enjoy.
 
Duke
 

Rather than try to argue what changes would count as "broad" or "sweeping," I just want to leave this survey of rules and mechanics from 3E Champions and other pre-4E Hero games from the perspective of 5E, admirably compiled by our own Chris Goodwin. (Thanks, Chris!)   Readers can decide how substantive they are for themselves.
hero3tohero4.html

I would argue that Fourth Edition was a sweeping change to Hero System, consolidating elements from its diverse genre-specific predecessor games, and changing and adding to many of their mechanics to attempt to be truly universal. Fifth was essentially a refinement and clarification of Fourth. Sixth altered more things, but is still the same game in most ways.

As an option (though it likely won't ring well for users of newer editions) :
 
We wanted vehicles well before there were actual vehicle rules.  (we clued in pretty early that you could do more than just supers with the game system, and we were ready to explore new planets  ) 
 
We used the character building rules to make vehicles.  We still do.   Buy Growth until you get the size you want, buy relevant movement powers, INT for a computer, Ego for an AI, etc. 
 
Not only does it work perfectly well, it eliminates the need for a whole new subset of rules. 

Hey, I resemble this remark!  (I had colored pencils too...  )

"Champions Pi." 
 
I rather like that!   
 
I've been leaning toward "Champions Jet" for my own compilation project.  Of course, now that western HERO and Horror HERO are done, and there are already PDFs of all the 4e and back stuff (except Champions 1e: that could be much, much better, and have the actual 1e character sheets instead of the 2e sheets), I may have time to play with it again. 
 
I've also decided to use the colored-on images from my first couple of books (my players--and especially their kid siblings - and later their children-- found colored pencils and HERO Games books to be a smashing combination.  And truth be told (there will likely be a lot of hate for this),  I didn't mind it: whatever increases the satisfaction of the player experience, I figure. 
 
Anyway, I think I'm going to scan those and clean them up and include those colorized Mark Williams pictures in my Jet edition.  . What can I say?  They are quite sentimental to me. 

This weekends work ..

You might be tempted to have players roll a Driving roll on every trip.  I wouldn't do that. Instead, I'd use what my old group from the 80's called a Luck/Unluck roll.  Roll 3d6 plus any Luck dice the character has (which is often zero); count the levels of Luck.  Roll 3d6 plus any Unluck dice the character has (ditto); count the levels of Unluck.  Subtract the lower from the higher to find net Luck or Unluck.  
 
Net levels of Unluck would require a Driving roll, with the exact result depending on both the net levels and the amount by which the Driving roll is failed.  (If my math is correct, this means that a typical person with neither Luck nor Unluck dice will have an unmitigated three levels of Unluck slight more often than 2 2/3 of every thousand trips.)
 
The typical Everyman has an 8- Driving roll.  Note that failure doesn't necessarily mean catastrophe, though this is a "daily driver" rather than a focused adventure.  How does a driver reduce their chances of failure?  Same way you do IRL.  Give yourself Extra Time to reach your destination, drive defensively, know your route (Area Knowledge as complementary), keep your car in good condition (oil changes and other routine maintenance as recommended by the manufacturer).  Of course, a route you drive every day might grant you an automatic +1-3 bonus rather than requiring an Area Knowledge roll.  
 
Of course, the net levels of Luck are as helpful as net levels of Unluck are unhelpful.  1-3 levels of Luck can get you there faster, with less fuel usage and tire wear, or even mitigate a crit-fail on your Driving roll.  
 
One level of Unluck might not even trigger a Driving roll; two would for sure, but even a crit-fail on this roll wouldn't necessarily result in a catastrophe; it might mean a flat tire, running out of gas, engine trouble, a ticket, or being late to work.  Three (or more) levels of Unluck would trigger a roll, with possibly dire consequences for a critical failure.  
 
Active opposition (an adventure, in other words) trumps all of the above, of course.  

As a matter of fact, yes!  An Acrobatics or Breakfall roll lets the target mitigate some of the effects of the Martial Throw.  The same would apply here for a Driving roll instead.

For what it's worth, you can, from time to time, pick up an old print copy for about the same price--I got my back-up copy for about five bucks and 3 dollars shipping.  It even still had the arena maps (though the Car Wars counters were missing).
 
Its just me.  Eventually, I want PDFs of _everything (that's how the Western and Horror HERO books came to be here) - and I've got a huge selection of them already, to be sure! -  but I will always prefer to hold, smell, hear, and read a book.  To _that_ end, I've been slowly working on getting a minimum of ywo copies of everything 4e and older, and two copies of 5e Revised and Sidekick revised rules books. 
 
I also intend to get one copy of each of the blue books for 6e (and _possibly_ a second copy of 6e Sidekick (sorry, "Basic") but I kind of doubt I'll bother). 
 
Not _exactly_ sure why, but let's remember I'm the guy with 13 copies of the 2e rules book, so.....   
 
 
Hey:
 
On that subject, is there anyone who needs and _will use_ the 6e blue book HERO System Skills?  I ordered Skills and Grimoire on a single order (used, excellent condition) from a book finder service, and ended up getting two copies of Skills. 
 
Caveat: if you have 5e "Ultimate Skill," then you do not need this book.  It is a word-for word reprint of that book.  You will find that references to a page number in one of them is equally valid for a page number in the other. 
 
Worse still, the splash page is a black-and-white version of the cover of Ultimate Skill.  I seriously dislike that cover.  Absolutely nothing wrong the art; nothing at all.  I just think it would be more suited for "Ultimate Gadgeteer" or something, given that the guy on the cover is running and cobbling some tech, and looking far to frantic to be someone in possession of "ultimate skill.". ;). I don't know: as much as I don't like him, the phrase "ultimate skill" conjures immediately images of Batman or Terminator (is that right?  Black and orange one-eyed mask with scale mail sleeves and legs?), who have unflappable faith in their skills, and not some guy running through a cluttered apartment in a near-panic.  Great art; bad match. 
 
 
Anyway, if you need and will use it, it's free to a good home. 
 
A few weeks ago I found myself with a second copy of CC and gave it to Ruggles; some time before that I had too many 3e bestiaries, and gave one to Goodwin.  Either can attest that the packing will be postal-worker proof.    You'd have to go straight to UPS to get them damaged.   

Run up to the HERO store on this site. 
 
 
Never cared for that one myself, but I did toss the counters and maps in with my Car Wars stuff way back when.  (oh, if I remember right, you'll need Car Wars as well. Stev Jasckon Games periodically releases a super-stripped down version as a give away, but when it's not a give-away, it's still guite cheap. 
 
Seems goofy, but Car Wars already does everything your suggesting, and it's extremely fun.  We did this a time or six for car chases in Espionage games.  It was awesome. 
 
 
 
 

From an old player that recently came back...
 
Last time I played Champions was 3rd edition around 1989 or 1990. Champions was the only Superhero system I would really consider playing back then. I won't speak ill of others but there was a lot of really bad superhero games and Champions felt "right" in that it captured the feel for a variety of reasons. I don't know if that generalization remains true. I never used HERO for anything else however except a failed attempt at a Middle-Earth "conversion" from my huge collection of ICE modules with some of the best maps and plots I had seen.  
 
That being said, I really like 6th Edition. I was able to pick it up and basically understand it quickly without any confusion, no doubt in part because of my familiarity with 3rd edition. I feel it is a lot more balanced in many ways (though we can always find ways to cheese the system) and feels much more logical and consistent across the board. What struck me as I was reading was that it is much, much better now for non-super games or the creation of really anything from the get-go. Some of this is just from the community's maturity. There are a lot of resources and a lot of people have already invented the wheel for us but the rules cover a phenomenal amount of information much of which player's actually don't even need to know and may even be detrimental in the short term. The complexity can be on the "Back End" so to say. 
 
Now I missed the 4th Edition and 5th Editions completely in my 30 year hiatus so there is a lot I don't know but it's pretty amazing how similar the games really are. I was honestly expecting it to be much different but I am very glad it is not.
 
A few details of the modern books are that the digital format should include in text links and a back button. With the enormous amount of necessary cross-referencing sometimes it can be a real bitch to get an entire concept in. I'm not a big fan of Power's Section that you have to jump back and forth between; it feels clunky. The other is that I think the "Rules" should be Free Like Beer or Free With The Purchase Of and the character creation replacing the rules section in the genre books but  that is 100% as a consumer not a publisher. I am sure they had very long and complete discussions on that and made decisions based on that. 
 
The coolest thing is that I can look at the oldest character sheet or a brand new one and get an excellent idea of what the creator was aiming for and a general sense of overall "Power". Few games can do that. I can use almost any material from 3rd edition with little change and most of them for clarity and balance.
 
As an example someone posted the characters from the Global Guardians PBEM on the FB HERO System Fan Page and we can recreate them in any of the editions fairly easily how many systems can say that?
 
Well I have to go to sleep. Enjoy your campaign and Flux is my favorite so far.