Arthur

Great thread. I'd rate myself: 50% Simulationist 30% Gamist 20% Narrativist In Hero, "Simulation" needs to be clarified: what it simulates is heroic fiction, not strict reality. Someone's sig here states that nicely. The primary thing that drew me into RPGs long ago was the idea of being able to quantify everything. Instead of just make-believe of "my character is strong and tough while yours is an intelligent wizard", I had actual numbers to go by. For a math geek with imagination, it was the Shangri-La of games. Gamist translates to "powergamer". Yeah, I have a streak of that. I like to play powerful characters. However, all those efficiently spent points MUST be within a well-defined concept, otherwise it's just an exercise in simple arithmetic. Narrativist is actually linked to Simulation. Good heroic fiction has a story, and that is what is being simulated. However, I do understand why they are listed separately here - it seems to have more to do with gaming styles than strict interpretation of the terms. To me, once again, it's a meaningless exercise in simple arithmetic if there isn't some sort of story behind it. However, I do derive the most enjoyment from the number-crunching. It's just not enough in and of itself to make a good game.

Here's a typical one: 75 Multipower: Sunbeams 7 u 15d EB 7 u 15d Flash 7 u 5d RKA 7 u 10d EB, Armor Piercing 7 u 10d EB, Affects Desolid 7 u 10d EB, Explosion 7 u 7d EB, AE Cone* 7 u 6d EB AVLD (Flash Defense) * Not sure if I have the Advantage level right - don't feel like looking it up. This represents a generic blast, a flash (duh), a focussed beam, another focussed beam, a "phased" beam, a "photon torpedo", a "wide-angle beam", and a "dazzle" that stuns by overloading optic nerves. This what you were looking for? BTW, I concur about the Disarm being inappropriate and unnecessary. There is no "Disarm" Power - you can use any one of several different effects to effect a Disarm.

Without going through all the posts (damn dialup connection), I have a solution I use in my games and it extends beyond merely fixing STR in Heroic games. I apply a Genre Modifier Advantage to certain Powers. One of the great flaws of any Universal Roleplaying System is that different levels of certain things vary in usefulness based on genre. I saw this with great clarity with GURPS. In a SF setting, with X-Ray Lasers, DR (Damage Resistance - the equivalent of rPD and rED) of 10 was almost meaningless. The weapons routinely did 6d or more damage, often with an Armor-Piercing divisor. However, in a Fantasy game, where typical damage was in the 2d to 3d range, DR 10 made you close to invincible. Yet, that same DR 10 cost the same 30 points in both settings. Hence the Genre Modifier. Or Usefulness Modifier. Or whatever you want to call it. Certain Powers are "too good for the points" in a typical low-tech Fantasy setting (depending on how restricted magic is). Therefore, Powers like Armor, Force Field, Flight, and a few others have to take a mandatory +1/2 Genre Advantage. STR is a little more tricky to finagle with most character-creation software, but it's hardly insurmountable. I just add an entry in the Powers column for Custom Power and call it "STR Mod" or somesuch. So if I spent 10 points on STR, I add a 5 point STR Mod "Power". Piece o cake.

The problem is that I might've spent 30 points on skills while Matrix-Boy can do the same thing with a 5 point VPP. Why would anyone actually buy all the separate skills? In this case, it's not so bad because of the conditions, but in general Skills in a VPP are illegal for that very reason.

Discovered that little error just after the first post. I went ahead and did it "right". Easier to see all the effects that way. Has had "Dermal Armor" since v1.0. Thanks. Artwork ain't my line. My attempts at drawing characters are about a 3 (where 1 is a stick-figure and 10 is John Byrne). I usually don't have a real strong visual conception of characters anyway. When I do, it's usually based on some actor. The first thing that pops into my head is Yul Brynner in "Westworld".

Defined Quirks: Quirks: Loves being an android, does NOT want to be human again; Avid poker player; Tinkers with everything; Reads Dilbert religiously; Atheist and rationalist (thinks religion is a con game).

Thanks for all the suggestions! Second draft: Doctor Steele Player: ArthurS Val Char Cost 35 STR 25 23 DEX 39 23 CON 26 13 BODY 6 18 INT 8 8 EGO -4 15/20 PRE 5 8 COM -1 25 PD 18 25 ED 20 5 SPD 17 12 REC 0 46 END 0 43 STUN 0 11" RUN102" SWIM07" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 169 Cost Power END 50 Life Support , Eating: Character does not eat, Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents, Immunity: All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents, Longevity: Immortal, Safe in High Pressure, Safe in High Radiation, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum, Self-Contained Breathing, Sleeping: Character does not sleep 17 Repair Nanomachines: Healing 1 BODY (Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Reset Time: 1 Hour (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Hour (-2 1/4), BODY only (-3/4), Self Only (-1/2), Requires appropriate materials to heal major damage (Impairing/Disabling) (-1/2) 5 IR vision system: Infrared Perception 11 Dermal armor: Damage Resistance (11 PD/11 ED) 3 Artificial body: Lack Of Weakness (-3) for Normal Defense 3 Artificial Body: Lack Of Weakness (-3) for Resistant Defenses 3 Computer mind: +3 Mental Defense (5 points total) 5 Artificial Body: Power Defense (5 points) 2 Recharging: +5 REC (10 Active Points); Only when plugged into power source Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (-1 1/2), Only to END Power loses about half of its effectiveness (-1), Concentration 1/2 DCV, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (-1/2) 2 +5 PRE (5 Active Points); Only to resist PRE attacks (-1) 25 Omnilaser: Multipower, 50-point reserve, all slots: (50 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost 2x END (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Effect: Half power in rain/snow/fog (-1/4) 2u 1) Laser: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6 +1 (vs. ED) (50 Active Points) 10 2u 2) Pulse Laser: Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED) (50 Active Points) 10 2u 3) Phased Laser: Energy Blast 6d6 (vs. ED), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) (45 Active Points) 8 2u 4) Pinpoint Laser: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2) (45 Active Points) 8 Powers Cost: 134 Cost Skill 3 Computer Programming 13- 3 Electronics 13- 3 Gambling (Card Games, Chess) 13- 3 Inventor 13- 3 Paramedics 13- 3 Systems Operation 13- 3 Scientist 2 1) SS: Cybernetics (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- 2 2) SS: Robotics (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- 2 3) SS: Physics (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- 2 4) SS: Neurobiology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- Skills Cost: 29 Cost Perk 3 Computer Link Perks Cost: 3 Cost Talent 5 Eidetic Memory 3 Lightning Calculator 4 Speed Reading (x10) 3 Absolute Time Sense Talents Cost: 15 Total Character Cost: 350 Val Disadvantages 5 Quirks 10 Distinctive Features: Synthetic skin (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses) 20 Hunted: VIPER 8- (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish; Extensive Non-Combat Influence) 15 Hunted: Tech Org 8- (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish) 15 Hunted: Tech agency 11- (Mo Pow; Watching; Extensive Non-Combat Influence) 15 Psychological Limitation: Pacifist (self-defense/defend others) (Very Common; Moderate) 15 Psychological Limitation: Limited emotional responses (Very Common; Moderate) 20 Psychological Limitation: Curiousity (Very Common; Strong) 15 Social Limitation: Android (Frequently; Major) 10 Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x STUN Electricity (Common) 10 Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x BODY (Common) Disadvantage Points: 150 Base Points: 200 Experience Required: 0 Total Experience Available: 0 Experience Unspent: 0 Background/History: Doctor Walter Steele specialized in robotics and cybernetics. When a degenerative disease confined him to a wheelchair, he designed an android body and transferred his mind into it. His body contains nanomachines and will "heal" itself (major structural damage requires raw materials for the nanomachines to work with). Yes, he does have "emotions", but in a limited fashion. His mind is a hybrid: neither fully Human nor fully machine (it's about 75/25 skewed toward Human, though). Personality: Curious about everything. Loves learning new things. Loves being an android, does NOT want to go back to being human. Ever. Always tinkering with improvements (i.e. - spending XP). Quote: "Hmmm. I wonder how THIS works?" Powers/Tactics: Tries to avoid combat. If pressed, will fire OmniLaser (from eyes). If that fails, will throw unskilled punches (however, his android strength and the speed of his computer brain makes that quite effective). He plans to eventually add melee weapons (retractable blades and reinforced fists - an HKA and HA multipower). Campaign Use: A technician who can handle himself in a scrap. Can casually walk into a nuclear powerplant full of nerve gas and fix things. Appearance: Designed his android body to look as average as possible, but is still obviously synthetic. Did not bother to simulate hair. Often wears a fedora-like hat.

Re: Lasers do no knockback - maybe Forgot about that. How about one for "Reduced by Range in rain or fog"? Or even "half power in rain or fog". I think that's been a -1/4, IIRC. However, I'd then have a hard time fitting his android melee weaponry into the same MP. I'd probably have to go back to two separate MPs, although he could use only one or the other in a given Phase. Each one has a different set of Lims. Good question. Let me ponder on the concept for a moment... Sort of a hybrid of both. That's where I came up with Mental Defense. He has a human mind melded with a computer brain. It's unlike almost any other mind, so a Mentalist would have a hard time coping. The dominant portion is definitely Human. The computer portion is a tool - the Human mind is in charge. Dr. Steele prefers his android body, but wants to remain Human in his mind. A disembodied intellect in a superior android body with none (or greatly reduced) human weaknesses, drives, and needs!

Paramedics seemed like a good choice. I figured he'd had to learn at least basic medical skills with his previous condition as a human. Gambling is there because 1. I like to have at least a few points spent "frivolously"; 2. I personally am a huge fan of poker, chess, and blackjack. I identify very closely with this character. Good idea on some of them. However, he could have gotten an MD to assist with some of the medical/bio aspects. Good idea, actually. "Only when plugged into power source" is a LOT more than -1/4! Default REC is on ALL the time. This is a -1 1/2 Lim. I would almost call it a -2. He has to be at a power outlet and effectively can't move during the process. I also added "only to END (-1)". Means it takes at least a Turn to start, but that's OK. That's very much in concept.

Should be a Drain NND with the defense being Life Support: Immunity to appropriate disease. Expensive, but it finally makes those points spent on Immunities useful. Anybody besides me think that general immunity to disease and poison is WAY too expensive now? I figured 5 points each, max.

Is this based on Infectious Lass from the Legion of Substitute Heroes? (Polar Boy and Color Kid, anyone?). 'only to lower skill rolls'??? If 'difficulty thinking' isn't an all-purpose INT Drain, I dunno what is. Drop that Lim.

Thanks. I have a fairly strong Munchkin streak, but it's always been secondary to Character Conception. However, keeping the Optimization Monster in check is hard. That's the kind of suggestion I was hoping for. What else would it take? I figured Electronics was a must. Cybernetics, to me, includes everything necessary to build androids. Maybe I needed a more comprehensive name for it. I do see him as being quite specialized. That was a spot where conception trumped munchkinism. I realize it's not combat-effective as is. However, he has a small fusion powerplant and a bank of batteries/capacitors built in. The fusion plant represents his REC. The batteries represent END. (STUN recovery is "rebooting"). Firing that laser drains the batteries/capacitors FAST. The powerplant can recharge them, but not quickly. Seems like a small Absorption to be able to use outside electricity to recharge would be a good idea. 2d Absorption (Energy to END). +1/4: Fades at 1 per minute; -1/2: Electricity/Heat only, and heat works at half effectiveness [thermocouples]; -1/2 Only to starting value. 6 points.

Interested in comments on this one. It's a bit of a departure for me, but it really seemed to work in a "wish-fulfillment" sense. I mean, if I lived in a world with supers, this is the character I personally would want to BE. Background: A brilliant cyberneticist trapped in a body with a degenerative condition (Holy Stephen Hawking!). Designed an android body and transferred his mind into it. Dr. Steele does not have the Data "I want to be human (again)" syndrome in the slightest. He loves being an android, thinks synthetic is vastly superior to biological, and would never ever go back to being "mere flesh and blood". Doctor Steele Val Char Cost 35 STR 25 23 DEX 39 23 CON 26 15 BODY 10 18 INT 8 8 EGO -4 15 PRE 5 10 COM 0 25 PD 18 25 ED 20 5 SPD 17 12 REC 0 46 END 0 45 STUN 0 11" RUN102" SWIM07" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 174 Cost Power END 50 Total Life Support: Custom Power (50 Active Points) 5 15 Dermal armor: Damage Resistance (15 PD/15 ED) 5 Microscopic x10 (Sight Group) 5 Infrared Perception 3 Lack Of Weakness (-3) for Normal Defense 3 Lack Of Weakness (-3) for Resistant Defenses 3 +3 Mental Defense (5 points total) 5 Power Defense (5 points) 15 Metal Hands: Multipower, 15-point reserve 1u 1) Metal Fist: Hand-To-Hand Attack +3d6 (15 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1 1u 2) Knife Hand: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (plus STR) (vs. PD) (15 Active Points) 1 25 Omnilaser: Multipower, 50-point reserve, all slots: (50 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost 2x END (-1/2) 2u 1) Laser: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6 +1 (vs. ED) (50 Active Points) 10 2u 2) Pulse Laser: Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED) (50 Active Points) 10 2u 3) Phased Laser: Energy Blast 6d6 (vs. ED), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) (45 Active Points) 8 2u 4) Pinpoint Laser: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2) (45 Active Points) 8 Powers Cost: 139 Cost Skill 3 Computer Programming 13- 3 Electronics 13- 4 Gambling (Card Games, Chess, Craps) 13- 3 Inventor 13- 3 Paramedics 13- 3 SS: Cybernetics (INT-based) 13- 3 Systems Operation 13- Skills Cost: 22 Cost Perk 3 Computer Link Perks Cost: 3 Cost Talent 5 Eidetic Memory 3 Lightning Calculator 4 Speed Reading (x10) Talents Cost: 12 Total Character Cost: 350 Val Disadvantages 5 Quirks 10 Distinctive Features: Synthetic skin (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses) 20 Hunted: VIPER 8- (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish; Extensive Non-Combat Influence) 15 Hunted: Tech Org 8- (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish) 15 Hunted: Tech villain 11- (As Pow; Harshly Punish) 15 Hunted: Tech agency 11- (Mo Pow; Watching; Extensive Non-Combat Influence) 15 Psychological Limitation: Pacifist (self-defense/defend others) (Very Common; Moderate) 20 Psychological Limitation: Curiousity (Very Common; Strong) 15 Social Limitation: Android (Frequently; Major) 10 Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x STUN Electricity (Common) 10 Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x BODY (Common) Disadvantage Points: 150 Base Points: 200 Experience Required: 0 Total Experience Available: 0 Experience Unspent: 0

Part of the problem is that Martial Arts give huge damage bonusses. They were originally designed to give martial arts types competetiveness with superhero Bricks. They still model comic-book martial arts pretty well. However, when you use them in a low-level Heroic game (let alone Normals), they become amazingly potent. For a super martial artist planning on tangling with Grond, +4d is necessary. For a realistic human black belt with STR 15 or so, +4d is almost ludicrous. To really represent realistic martial arts, you should probably change a few rules and design all your maneuvers with 1-3 points. Almost no maneuver would have a bonus greater than +2d. Consider: +2d is equivalent to a punch from someone four times as strong! Martial arts training helps you hit harder, but that's already a LOT harder. +4d maps over to sixteen times as strong. Hard to imagine that in reality.

That's one way of doing a "Displacer Beast" type of effect. This is an old-school D&D critter that always appeared to be five feet away from where it actually was. Also heard once about Running with IPE. He always appears to be standing still, but whenever you blink or look away then look back, he's in a different spot.

IIRC, 1d-1 does a minimum of 1 point. Therefore the possible values are: 1,1,2,3,4,5. That averages out to 2 2/3 points per die. Much better than 1/2d. IIRC, 1d-1 used to be 12 points. It probably should be.

That sounds more like an RKA, based on ECV, does BODY.

That is essentially the same as my GURPS-derived "Skill Defaults" approach. You can look at it as "unskilled attempts are at -7 (or whatever), and each point up to 3 buys off the penalty". Different wording, same effect.

Played GURPS a lot for ten years. I never noticed that as being terribly prevalent. Most players bought the skills they wanted to have. Rolling against defaults wasn't that common. Whether or not it can be exploited by munchkinism is beside the point. The real point is that it makes sense. Most skills are something that an untrained person should have a small chance at. And the more talented the untrained person is, the better his chances. In this case, high stats represent raw talent. Whatever the genealogy, Steve Jackson explicitly mentioned Champions as an influence in the preface to GURPS Basic Set. The point is that Hero shouldn't feel "guilty" about cribbing ideas from GURPS. They are both great game systems, and have influenced each other. "A champion acknowledges another champion" - Gene Simmons of Kiss (when discussing the Kiss/Aerosmith tour).

This is an area where I really REALLY REALLY wish the designers had taken a page from GURPS and introduced Skill Defaults. It's only fair: GURPS got the idea of point-based character creation from Champions. The implementation in Hero would go something like this: 3 points: 9 + CHA/5. 2 points: 7 + CHA/5 1 point: 5 + CHA/5 0 points: 3 + CHA/5 So to take the Lockpicking example, with a DEX of 18. 3 points: 13- 2 points: 11- 1 point: 9- 0 points: 7- IOW, it defaults to a DEX roll at -6, and each of the first three points increases that by 2. Needless to say, this is already my House Rule (as if I had any time to game anymore).

Re: Re: Re: How to quantify a super's superiority over normals? An analysis I did of KE of guns vs. DC (in 4E) showed a very close correlation to +1 DC = x2 muzzle energy. As Warp9 said - this has already been discussed in detail. Suffice it to say that the +5 AP = x2 RW effect is well established. BTW, +5 STR IS +5 AP. Unless you put an Advantage on STR (very unusual).

I would consider this to be acceptable, and in the spirit of the "abort to" rules. As long as the target of the Dispel were an incoming attack, it sounds OK to me. In a similar fashion, I would allow a "Spell Shield" as a Suppress with the Damage Shield Advantage (+1/4: any magic). Then, any incoming magic suffers the effect of the Suppress.

I've done GURPS that way for years. Every turn, I have players roll 1d, add DEX, then add +1 for Combat Reflexes. Combat order then counts down. New roll every turn. This could be adapted trivially. The higher DEX range in Hero would call for a 2d or 3d roll, as suggested already. It really doesn't slow things down much. In fact, the increased level of player interaction more than makes up for it, IME. Instead of passively waiting for their DEX order to come up, players roll every Phase and have to pay attention to the countdown.

If it's not a Superheroic campaign, why worry about all the point cost details? You need a PD and ED in case it is attacked and a defined size, but the rest of it can just be arbitrarily defined. Unless a character is paying points for it, who cares? Insta-shelter: 1 hex radius, DEF 4. Keeps inside at 20 deg C and keeps out rain, wind, vermin, etc. Comes with a set of wristbands; anyone wearing the wristband can pass through the perimeter of the shelter as though it is not there (each wristband has to be tuned to a specific shelter). See how much easier this is?

Had one player build a version of Marvin the Martian. You know, the short pitch-black guy with the Greek helmet from the old Warner Bros cartoons ("I am very very angry"). Noticed he had a listing for "Disintegrator/Reintegrator Gun". It had appropriate Powers, but he hadn't taken the Focus Limitation. Asked why: "Because he always has another one."