Duke Bushido

I _totally_ get where you're going, and I would very much _love_ to agree with you. But I can't. Not because you're wrong; you're not wrong at all. I can't agree with you because I really believe the best way to generate interest in _any_ game is to show off the best parts of it. The best part of the HERO System is, hands-down, building and playing super heroes. Now understand that when I say that, I am _really_ saying something that is quite powerful to me, because superheroes is not now and has never really been my bag. I'm a space opera (dear god, not Star Wars) junkie from way back. But HERO is not even a "derived from" system with regard to Champions. It _is_ Champions. "Derived from" suggests some base element was pulled from the original source. As many of the conversations on this board demonstrate, nothing has been pulled. Lots and lots of things have been tweaked, changed, what-have-you, but nothing really pulled out and left for "Champions only." In fact, Champions is about the only genre that can make full use of all the rules in the system. The other genre that can make a passable demonstration of the system is Fantasy, and in particular insanely _High_ Fantasy. You know: super powers with robes and wands. Everything else is, necessarily, _not_ super heroes. It's also where the system loses a _lot_ of granularity and some of the older editions without the extra rules just sort of broke down almost entirely. If the idea of a boxed set is "baby's first crack rock," then I really have to stick with the idea of presenting it as it has always been, in spite of pretending to be lots of other things, too: a super hero game. (Sure; I love it for the system, and use the Champions 2e running gear for _all_ my games, Champions or not (some tweaking required , but it shines brightest when it does what it was meant to do. For that reason, I would have to agree with the suggestion of using Champions Complete as the candy in the box. To go a bit further, I don't think there is any _need_ to bring up the HERO System _at all_ in the boxed set, save perhaps the "Powered by HERO System" tag on the box or the cover of the book. I know the majority of us here seem to be old farts, or dangerously close to it. So it stands that there's a good chance that a large percentage of us started with 1e or possibly even 2e (sorry 3e guys; there's a reason for this ). To those guys I ask this question: How many of you were already using, or considering using, the Champions rules for non-Champions games? How long did it take you to notice "Crap! I can do something other than super heroes with this!" It didn't take too long, because very, _very_ shortly into 2e HERO Games introduced Espionage: Champions for James Bond. (see, 3e guys? By the time 3e came along, everyone had already noticed that Champions works with everything). I can't swear it, but I'm willing to be that Champions was the _first_ genuinely generic rules system (though, again, it doesn't do the "bottom end" power levels with a lot of flair or color. However, it _does_ do them, and play ably so. I think Champions Complete is precisely the book needed, because if _my_ thick head noticed within weeks of learning to play that the system could do Traveller, and then proceeded to create all kinds of wacky genres and scenarios, well-- there is no way I can believe that if _I_ noticed that anyone with even half a mind could possibly not notice it for themselves. Take the 3e route, though: Champions 3e boxed set; Justice Inc: one thin rule book (or at least Champions Complete; it's thin enough to work), one thirty-to-sixty page "world book," and possibly even a villain pamphlet or some sort. Then an adventure to get you started. I'd go the 3e route here, too: Three adventures (sort of) to get you started. Start off with something like Viper's Nest (dungeon crawl) or even this Wildstryke I just learned about yesterday: something fairly simple to get you used to the combat rules and the book keeping, and then a couple of other adventures (loosely related, perhaps, but definitely tied to the world book setting). A map never hurts (Rose's, anyone? ), and everyone loves dice. For what it's worth, while I love the HERO dice as a souvenir, I find them to be a bit large for rolling a satisfying handful. I guess I have, too. It's just that until recently I didn't know he was him. Yes indeed; that's rather what I was seeing when I first started shooting off my mouth: new supers; new villains; new stuff without fears of someone else saying "no" or getting some sort of share of it. HERO Games is stagnant. I'd like to see that fixed.

Ha! I did the same thing with an NPC "hero" that needed occasional rescue. I was inspired by Goat from Megas XLR.

Valid point. In my defense, I've had a couple of decades of exposure to the "you can make any character and any world you want" marketing pitch for HERO; it kind of stuck that I should stay generic there... But yes; you make a valid point. It's also why I can't really be the guy to produce an adventure: the bit in the back of BBB (which the "Mob Rule" comments the other day demonstrated I don't remember for _squat_ these days) and the Hudson City / Dark Champions stuff were about all the "official" world there was, and they really didn't overlap a lot in the official material. Someone mentioned San Angelo a page or two back, and honestly, _that_ setting was better-supported than anything that wasn't Dark Champions back then. And really, it's about all I know of the "official" setting. At this point, I've been running in my own universe so long that when 5e stuff suddenly appeared, I just didn't need it. There was a lot of it, yes, but it was just _years_ too late to be of any use to me. The original Guardians have all retired; the 4e Champions are all dead at the hands of the Silver Shrike (except for Defender, who is a wheelchair bound research scientist at the premiere technology company of my universe.... Mechanon got destroyed early on; Dr. Destroyer is dead by his own hand ( caught up in his own nuclear device plot)-- the list goes on and on. The only thing the 5e re-hashing of thirty-and-more year old properties did for me was a trip down memory lane. You are _absolutely_ right; it was not supported, but really, it _couldn't_ be, because there was nothing new, and there was absolutely no way to know if any of these characters or setting still had value. The "new" stuff was a couple of settings (which would have been a great place to start printing new adventures with new characters and new villains). The most interesting "new" thing was the talking gorilla super-scientist, but I can't use that either because I already _have_ one! It's a _staple_ of comics, so we tossed one in a few years ago and he still pops up now and again. Though honestly, he's insanely popular with all of my groups, but more than him they love his research assistant. Go figure... Anyway, before this goes more astray: A new location: Check. We got Millennium City. New characters: Check. We got Kinetic. New villains: uhm.... _some_....? I think? Okay, some. Right there: that's where a couple of adventures start brining things to life. But it didn't happen. Instead, we got the history of the universe from the big bang to how it all ends at some point where you want to start creating your adventures. Oh man do I hear you there! Though honestly, I wish I were more tech-savvy. If I could write a bit of software that would edit out the filler words "errr... hum... uh.... like, ..... yeah; oh yeah... yeah..." and the long dead pauses, not only could I make enough money to hire "paid pros" to create adventures, I could listen to four hours of podcast in roughly eighteen minutes. Fine by me. All the "official" universe ones were dealt with in my universe a generation ago anyway. I can't answer for Spence, but I _can_ tell you why I agree with him: It's asking for a _lot_ of commitment to a game world that, for the new player, isn't even a tangible thing yet. They've made no friends, enemies, or connections, or tied themselves to it in any way, yet they are supposed to feel stirred to save their friends, family, community, and world from certain doom at the hands of what'd-you-say-his-name-was-again? It's a bit much as a first step.

Historically, they didn't. They've got the records to back that claim up. For reasons I do t understand personally, pre-made villain books _do_ sell (seriously: that seemed really backwards to me for the longest time). The problem is that _time has passed_. The fans are no longer young people with lots of time on their hands and the energy to do it all from scratch once a week or even once a month in some cases. I say with complete honesty that I - and most of the GMs I knew back then- were of the "I don't want your canned settings and canned adventures" stripe: I made everything myself, and loved it I'm fifty nine years old with two school-aged kids still at home, a job that eats a minimum of seventy hours a week... Time has passed, and the times have changed in the passing. The pre-packaged adventure task is even more daunting for - well, I was going to say "universal system," but even if we stick with just "superheroes," it's pretty difficult. You say "let's play D&D," and everyone knows more or less what to expect. Let's play Traveller or Kult or that Gothic space marines thing- everyone knows what to expect. "let's play superheroes," especially at this point in time, means a hundred different settings and tropes to a hundred different groups. Honestly, a writer will either _have_ to craft a whole new world from scratch or learn one of the published ones by heart, both of which have major downsides. So at this point looking for "pro stuff" is pointless from one perspective (though, as others above, I would like to point out that there are many 'paid pros' on this board) because short of volunteer everything, you are asking someone(s) to spend time learning or building a backdrop, then creating or learning NPCs and villains and writing an adventure that _might_ ring all the right genre bells for one small portion of the world's smallest RPG Fandom (I don't actually know that, but I haven't met an "outsider" to our group who already knew how to play in a couple of decades), all with "paid pro" art, color, writing, etc. And if those are the only acceptable standards, we can give up on ever seeing anything.

No; I do not. Therefor I put little effort to it. As to your expectations, well I can't answer that. Applicable to both of us, though--and many others as well-- are the thoughts on insanity attributed to Einstein.

Not really an unusual concept, but an unusual campaign. Due to numerous weather-related cancellations one night, only my brother John and I showed up for game night. (hilarious, since we both rode motorcycles through the storm to get there). Jim, refusing to let the evening go to waste, announced "Screw it! You guys make characters!" Sure! For what? I don't care. Whatever you want. What kinds of characters, then? Personalities? Powers? Maybe a hint at genre? Tell you what: Duke, you go into the den and surprise me. John, you stay right here and surprise me. I'm going to get a couple of lanterns in case the power goes out and pop a couple frozen pizzas in the oven while we still got power. Back in a few." Twenty minutes later, he called for our characters. I had made an eleven-year-old Japanese-American orphan with a powerful TK and a couple of mental powers who was looking for his allegedly-kidnapped father. John had made an adolescent dragon. "Cool." Said Jim. "I can work with this." And he did. For about three years. It was a total blast.

And yet we while away countless days and months worth of our lives arguing in pursuit of a perfect mathematical balance without the willingness to admit that it ain't gonna happen.

It's not the play. It's the learning the rules. 'Frinstance, in -- I _think_ it was '81?-- Jim peeled the cellophane of a new boxed game he bought when we showed up for Traveller night. He read through the rules-- mostly out loud. Three hours later, we were playing our first game. And we were _young_ then (well, "ish"). We didn't have lots of important commitments on our time; even our jobs were those entry-level, no-responsibility, take no work home with you sort of affairs. We had stamina, and could game all night and hit the time clock the next morning like it was nothing. I've had the 6e PDFs for what? Nearly two years now? Still haven't finished them.

And check out that episode of Venture Brothers to really appreciate what it's like to be in one of the limbs....

Fair enough. I do admit that I had an issue with the allegedly "pure of heart" juvenile delinquent aspect. Though I did find the movie hillarious (not hyperbole: I nearly cried with laughter in some spots) simply because it was _such_ a departure from what I was expecting: grim dark broody modern oh-so-conflicted whothehellcares stuff so popular these days. It was a breath of much-needed fresh air, and it blew steady for two hours. Best time I've had since the first Toby Spiderman, and even that was a bit broody.

Sweet! I've got to get that entered into my index. Thanks!

They have to: The shock and awe of such an astounding feat of mechanical engineering in action, preparing to kick the butts, is an overwhelming Presence Attack of unimaginable proportions. It's easily-- _easily_! - - PRE + 100. What else makes sense?

Wildstrike?

Amigo, you can't go wrong with Kirby. (personally, I think you can: the weird over-emphasized metallics and the fact that he seemed to think hands and feet were almost completely flat,--- The helmets. Oh dear sweet merciful God, the helmets..... But still: he did more or less define the look of the genre for a couple of generations)

People keep saying "solid B" yet I think it's telling that I paid to take an entire family to this thing twice, a truckload of family and kids to the drive-in when it hit there, and have pre-ordered the DVD, yet have no interest at all in anything that says "Avengers" on the title. This movie is an "A". It's just that not being a "Marvel movie" seems to cause folks to deduct a grade.

Just checked: The Conan BOH is running until Monday.

Agreed on all counts!

Agreed. However, on a pirate ship, there would be perhaps a captain and one or two directly under him. These would be the extent of the "not lackeys" on the whole boat.

Interestingly enough, HERO has the same problem when going _down_ the scale. Well, "fall apart" may be a bit severe, but it loses pretty much all the granularity. 6e's intro of CV as a Characteristic _may_ solve that going forward (certainly it's a tool to do so), but I'm willing to be the bulk of "Heroic" level characters end up within one point of each other, possibly two for outliers. This really struck me with the weapons examples, even as far back as the original Champions book. I figured there was something I was missing. I invested (over time) in 3g3, More 3g3, and the massive Talisorian compendium (which is sitting on my shelf but whose name totally escapes me) just to see if it was something _I_ was doing wrong. I've poured over the HERO-published books for examples of "real" weapons to see what I was missing. Nope. Unless you're invoking Sci-Fi, Supers, or Magic, the weapons pretty much boil down to "Gun," "Knife," "Big Knife" and "Bomb," doing within a couple of _pips_ of each other in damage. It's so frustrating as make you absolutely _disgusted_ with yourself for the research into muzzle speed, projectile size and weight, etc-- just _wanting_ to give some flavor to your games, only to find out "yep. It's a gun. 'Reckon I'll just toss it in this barrel labeled 'GUNS' and see who wants what." We found a remarkably simple way to deal with the scaling problem, but it died with the dissolution of the original group. By then 4e was out, and the new guys just weren't having a lot of home-brew (yet ). Don't feel bad. I've got 5 BBB and one softcover 4e Champions (BBB: Reduced Penetration) on my shelf and I, too, had forgotten. In our defense though, I expect it's been a _while_ since either of us has looked at the Campaigning section in that book. (Well, except when I need to Xerox Cheshire Cat, of course. I really like the look of 4e Cheshire Cat; I find it orders of magnitude better than the other offerings) Sir, those of us who can't draw say it _all the time_...

I say we should just agree that they are equally irritating.

Sorry for the confusion. Ni; I was referring to Scott's offer to toss up a spare villain (unless that was you and I've gotten totally lost). Again: my apologies.

Can someone clue me in as to just what Mob Rule is (other than the actual impediment to justice, if course)? Thanks muchly.

That, and salt air would make it useless in short order without a couple of hours of daily maintenance.

That's really my favorite part of these forums. I know a lot of the conversations focus on coming to some sort of agreement on how things _should_ be, or verifying that Joe is doing things the same was Johnny, but personally, I like to see the things that are being done _differently_ from group to group. I find it more inspirational, and I find it helps to get the wheels turning when I'm feeling stumped.