Wardsman

It could be worked down to smaller point level. That was just a kitchen sink/proof of concept example. I could probably tack on more thematic limitations. My original version was a balanced package deal that had as one one of its conditions you had to successfully cast a ritual to create an endurance batter. A ritual that would be reused. I'm leery of giving a create effect for no points you are right on twelve being high. As I said you need to pattern it after whatever makes a mage a mage in a given system.

Rhar last option might be an alternate way of doing it. I'm just not used to buying spells skills or familiarities.

Of course a lot depends on what defines a mage and separates them from muggles in your game. That will dictate what characteristic or capability you enchant our wouldbe mage with. Probabilly should apply self only to that ritual. You might want to add the inherent advantage if you don't want suppress or dispell to turn your mage to normal. The idea is you can have an enchant ritual using the Create Effect that a wouldbe mage can use to become one if you want that flavour in your game.

All good points so far. Let me throw this at you. Agathodaemon Eudaemon Cacodaemon I expect the D&D crowd to recognize that last one. In the game, In Nomine, you could summon Demons by they don't like you. But you could command them. Angels on the other hand could be summoned but not commanded. Sounds like demons are Antagonistic while Angels are strong willed if you mimic that system. Time to build sme mythology. Who likes man and who does not.

How would you implement the unlife, ant essence , the iron wind? RQ has even the darkness pantheon fighting chaos which is from outside the known world of the gods and is alien. I equate anti essence with Qlippothic universes or realms dead or dying realms.

The mechanics are meta. But we often use them represent something in game. What does the differing attitudes of the summoned entity represent in your game. Obviously in a game where spells are ordered or ranked by AP and real cost, spells that summon pissed off things will be a lower rank than equivalent spells that summon the same thing in a friendly mode. Do you have the better attitude built as a naked advantage in a focus(material component)? How does this flesh out in your worlds?

I'm looking at right now how to implement spell orders or circle(levels). I did see that mentioned in 5TH FH as possibility. But I don't how much they fleshed it out. Problem is Int min doesn't reflect actual knowledge in a given field. I cabe brainy but if don't assembly language I still don't how use it. Spell levels or Ranks also hinge on Caster Ranks. So I've got think how advancement works and what each rank provides. Sek-pavar system from Harn has an interesting way of dealing with that but I'm not ready for translation effort yet.

What is the difference between defining the ability to cast magic a talent vs it being a perk? Especially if both types existed in the same world?

You got It . My point is if it is done through SE it is kosher. So is the 4th edition way if side effects occur when someone who does not possess the necessary knowledge and tries to cast. So I define a spell as needing at least 14- in Hermetic Arts to safely cast. Goth Chaos Mage who has never studied hermetic magic tries to cast it and runs the risk of side effects or backfire. And that is on top of any SE that the spell may normally have, if any.

In real life ceremonial magic systems there are rituals of self initiation. This is to simulate that in a Fantasy or Urban Fantasy system where the Magus must go through an initiation ritual before they can use magic. The ritual below is an example on how to simulate that. Ritual of Awakening Thy Higher Self, also known as Invoking Thy Higher Self or The Ritual of Becoming In a prepared area used to cast ceremonial magick this hour long ritual awakens the ability to sense and use magical energies. This ritual is cast during the full moon. Create Effect: Base time 1 day per 10 AP, 1 LTE per 10 AP Perk or Talent Mage 10 AP Mage sight (detect Magic [no sense Group] , Discriminatory, ranged , sense) 17 AP Other options: Activates Mana stat ( 2X EGO + 14 pts) = 7 AP Activate Mana Recovery (INT/5 +EGO/5 + 3 pts)= 6AP Arcane Defense, [functions as PD, ED, Ego, Power & flash defense against mystical or magic SFX] (EGO/5 +2) = 10 AP (5AP per point) Total 50AP Advantages: Reduced time to 1 hour (1 +3/4) = 87 AP Limitations Requires Ceremonial Magic Skill -1 per 20 -1/4 Requires a prepared sacred space Focus OAF immobile -2 Concentration throughout 0DCV -1 Gestures throughout -1/2 Incantations throughout -1/2 Window of opportunity , Only During the Full Moon -2 Total Limitations: -7 1/4 Real cost 12 pts 8 LTE -4 to ceremonial magic roll

The objections that skills may be too cheap might be valid. Ironically side effects rules in 5th do allow the 4th Edition FH College Limitation to fly.

Eureka! It is in the side effects rules! P.201 5th ED. 5th paragraph in or 3rd paragraph under When Side Effects Occur. Just tie level of SE to a "missing knowledge skill level chart" and decide if it happens all the time or if miss the magic roll. And if a minus to magic roll is involved.

I have thought in game as they research a spell from another college, awarding KS in the new college. No It represent a level of side effects if they try to use the spell without needed skills or modifying it to fit their paradigm.

How so? I'm really not understanding what y'all mean by that. How is that different from -0 limitation? Let me say this again. These skills are not used to cast in a Required Skill Roll sense, I have an ego based magic roll for that. I also want to encourage a mage (adept) to research spells found from other colleges to build spells from their own college. I may do like the 4th edition While 4th ED used "must know X in active points in this college" , I'm using skills levels in that college. But if you try to cast without knowing you take side effects or backfire for the missing level of limitations. This is why I want to tie it to spell structure! I hope this helps. I've reread 5th edition base and FH and found some pretty inventive twists on some old rules (like the variations on delayed effect spell limit). I am open to suggestions! But we seem to be miscommunicating and I haven't seen a better way than how I suggested. This reminds me of fights over psychic invisibility. I hate Invisibility based on ego(a standard way). I prefer to build it on mental illusions with limitations, But that is another fight. I just bring up as example on how herophiles argue sometimes.

I understand that. But I may or may not use RSR. And if I do it will be a different skill. I'm trying to simulate the need for background knowledge needed to cast a spell. Some spells will require more knowledge than others. Using "must know X active points in spell college" or must know a KS in that spell college are the only ways I figured out to do that. What stops an Illusionist from casting a pyromancy spell they find even if they never studied that school of magic? That is that I'm trying to simulate. You don't like how I propose to do it, then give an alternative without frameworks.

What if is both? Spells are bought with real points. Sebastian is a modern Hermetic with KS 14- Hermetic magic. He finds a spell that requires you to know Ancient Chaldean ceremonial magic 14-. While there might be some overlap in understanding they different that he can't cast or may have to risk risk backfire or side effects if the GM wants to let him jury rig the spell so to speak.

The main thing is if a spell is found it determines if the character can use it or it is just beyond their reach.

Mind wipe anyone? Drains on Skills?

You misunderstand. I'm not thinking requires skill to cast sense. I'm thinkinking in terms of the old 4 edition you must know so many points in this school of magic. But instead of knowing so many points in a magic school. They must have a prerequisite skill or skills at certain levels. I apologize if I was unclear.

Why does divine magic cost endurance?

This kind of misleading. It is better to say there are existing powers that can be defined as water based effects. There are no water effects in hero. Just like there are no fire effects in hero. Doesn't mean they cannot be simulated.

Background: Assume to cast certain spells the caster must have X amount in Y background skills. These are not the skills rolled to cast. Just background knowledge you must have to be able to cast this or that spell. May need more than one background skill, IE need KS Hermetic and Wiccan Magic May need one or the other skill, IE KS Hermetic OR Wiccan Magic Thoughts?

Never played pathfinder but that is just insane! Wow I thought AD&D prices were inflated and that was over 20 years ago. Does this reflect the norm in D&D / pathfinder circles these days? Addendum: http://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html

5th Edition FH page 277, top of second column. But Create goes back to 1st edition FH. I think it fell out favor in between editions. I didn't like it at first but it is growing on me. My only concern it is a little complicated for noobs as oppose to the enchant skill in 4th. I may have a few common enchant rituals prewritten to fight that. I tend to not like enchanter classes. I prefer that Items be created by the mages that have necessary colleges. Such as a pyromancer to create a ring of fire as opposed to an enchanter who can create an item from any college. Dwarven artificers being the exception. and I don't know why that doesn't bother me. Maybe because traditionally they don't cast spells but lore and legends do show them creating items of power. Create makes it easy to create artificers or enchanter classes.

Power stones are more advanced versions of Mana stones. Also I'm thinking of restricting END reservers with REC(POWER STONES) to immobile locations sort of like Nodes in White Wolf's mage. You are not reading what I'm writing. I've stated this several times. Under 5th ( I don't know 6th costs) 1 AP in in END reserve gives you 10 end. So in a create effect, 10AP gives you 100 END for 1 LTE. I've jacked that up to 10x END ( for small reserves)and still is cheap by LTE standards. Even if I used regular END instead of LTE (which defeats the purpose of having END reserve in the setting) the END cost to build one is still cheaper than to refill one that is now empty using aid or heal. I'm now leaning towards a second create effect to refill with lower LTE costs ( or requires less time) that can only be used to refill existing reserves. I don't plan to use this set up in all my settings just the gritty urban FH I'm working on. Working title "Wytches & Wiseguys" Addendum & Metaphysics: Mages must gather quintessential energy into reservoirs to power their magics. Creating these reservoirs are taxing. As is gather more energy to refill. Though not as taxing as creating new reservoirs. Very skilled mages can tie these reservoirs into ley lines that will recharge the reservoir.