theinfn8

I went with a Change Environment (-30m Running), with something like AoE 3m, OIF ("Great Weapon"). If you want it to have a PRE component, PRE Roll to Activate. Basically, if you're fast, you can make it by the guy with the giant sword, otherwise, you're stopping to fight.

A more advanced version might increase the radius, decrease the PRE roll requirement, or tack on a Trigger Attack with the sword that resets itself.

This kind of thing is where the bigger two-handers shine. The montante material that still exists has methods designed specifically for holding ground. It isn't meant for the guy to hold the gap (or bridge) indefinitely, just long enough for back-up to arrive and help push back.

21 hours ago, GDShore said:

 That's certainly one way to go, how about taking a sheet oh 5 cm. thick armor plate and compressing it down to 5 mm. with the weight of 5 mm. The protection of 5 cm. of armor, at the weight of 5 mm. Then of course, someone will come along and develop a sword with the heat of the sub to punch a hole through your armor nah, somebody already did that, Star Wars lightsabers. Just because it looks like medieval plate, doesn't mean you made it from the same stuff. The possibilities are endless!

Suppose the limit is really what magic is capable of in the world. And since a lot of magic users are also envisioned as scientists of a sort, they may reach some of the scientific levels that we operate in the modern era. What good is armour when you unleash those nano-golems to tear it apart at a micro level?

You bring up a good point, one that is brought up in Hammer's Slammers, every time there is an increase in armour tech (in their case armor tech), there's a commensurate increase in weapon tech.

On 12/28/2022 at 9:44 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

The biggest civilizational collapses were caused by either such levels of corruption and perversion the state collapsed in on its self (or was conquered by another nation), or disease and other catastrophes crushed innovation and caused things to roll backward.  We're probably watching one of those collapses happen to our civilization right now as we watch.  Its extremely difficult, based on human history, for any civilization to continue to prosper and advance for very long at all.

Oh, how sadly true.

Oddly, these falls do tend to see a lot of military build up and warring, so the tech, and armour (see how I brought it back around? ) both tend to develop quickly right before. With magic, you could make perfectly shaped bullets, rifling, and "black powder" relatively easily. But there's also no reason they couldn't build the magical equivalent of kevlar. I'm kind of picturing nano-forges powered by nano-golems...

As far as stagnation of tech, a lot of settings are rise and fall epochs. The tech is developed (including magic as a tech) and then there's a fall with a dark age and the tech is lost. Usually it is because of something (someone) stupid with magic. In that type of setting it's not an issue of technological stagnation, but of academic loss. The presence of magic isn't even necessary for this cycle, as witnessed by our own world and civilizations.

On 12/20/2022 at 12:52 AM, GDShore said:

Interesting "theinfn8" , first you have to pack extra cloth to wrap each piece in, then you need a bag to put the pieces in, then you need to sling that bag onto your back remember it weighs about 40 kilo's. Now we can reduce the bag weight by a little, the helmet you will likely wear, (4 kg) gauntlets, (3 kg) greaves, (4 kg) total = 11 kg. the bag now weighs 29 kg's. 

Course you just dump it and be rid of that extra weight but wait, it is worth a small fortune. As for putting it on just before combat, it takes the assistance of two who know what they are doing approximately 15 minutes to put plate on, longer if it is Gothic or Maximillian Plate. I suppose one of the mages might have a summon invisible servant to assist you, the average run time of combats in most of my games is 30 to 60 seconds. SOO about the time you get you legs on and settled the battle is over one way or the other. 

I beg to differ on some of your numbers. If I am already armoured up in chain, I can be up and running with the rest of the armour in 5 minutes, on my own. Less if I am already wearing the legs and gorget, which I might as well be. If I need to throw the chain on, add another 2 minutes (max) to roll out my chainmail log and slip it on over my head. Still all by my lonesome. Yes, having someone to help can speed it up, but we're talking foot level combat armour, not cast iron jousting in a tournament, I never have to walk on my own, armour. Armour that I have seen people sprint in, jump, roll, do pushups, and otherwise be remarkably nimble with. And I'm not saying that you open the door, combat starts, and you start putting your armour on. Only an idiot would think that makes sense. I'm saying, that an observant individual could see that there's a fortified location ahead that will require heavier armour, or that the smattering of dead bodies or bones we just came across would seem to indicate a particularly perilous creature nearby.

As for the cloth to wrap your armour in, absolutely you would have/want that. In fact, anyone with carbon steel armour is a freaking fool not to have it. After you use your armour you lightly oil it and wrap it in cloth to put it away. It prevents rust and the cloth becomes slowly impregnated with the oil from repeated use, adding yet another layer of rust protection and it makes it all quieter and easier to carry. Take a little extra time and you can stash it all in a moderately sized hiking backpack (the breast and back plate give you a nice cavity to fold the arms and legs into, and your chainmail roll, probably the single most heavy item beyond the helm at like... 30 lbs?, could be attached like a bedroll. Why remove your helm? There's no metal on your body left for it to scrape on and make noise, so you might as well protect your true moneymaker. Worn as a backpack, sure, all that might still impede you, but it would be a hell of a lot quieter than wearing it. You could drop the whole she-bang in a couple seconds to fight without the extra weight if desired. Or, let your afore mentioned assistants carry the bag. If all the metal in my kit weighed 88 lbs, particularly without the helm, I would be very surprised. But, I can't argue the reduced number at 29kg might not be realistic, especially since, as you say, I paid a small fortune for quality armour which is lighter than stainless or normal steel.

Love me the sound of chain on plate. That jingle-rattle is so unique.

I would think, if we're talking about layered armour and exploring a dungeon, you would "layer down" to a level appropriate to the situation. Chain on its own is decently protective, and moderately quiet, so would likely be the most common exploration mode. You can tell there's something nasty coming up in the next little bit? Out comes the plate. Need to go full stealth? All that metal gets wrapped up and bagged and you push forward in your gambeson and hope the stealth makes up for the lack of protection. Bonus is, since you layered, you have all the armour anyway.

Solid suggestions already. Personally, I would mostly treat everything from a narrative slant. The combat parts would be exactly the same, since a character's assumed skill level will be the same in dream and out.

Depending on your players' skill level with Hero, those that "awaken" to the idea of being in a dream could temporarily gain access to a power framework for "dream powers" that they can change up with an Ego roll (or skill if it seems appropriate, like an archer using their knowledge to say "bows don't operate like that". If they are in the dreaming long enough (like, mini-campaign level long) you could increase the pool size over time as the PCs power grows.

Just some thoughts.

While it is interesting to consider massed combat in regards to armour and arrows, the level of game play is usually skirmish level. Squad vs. squad, and much smaller distances. Distances that an individual in heavy armour can cover quite quickly on foot ("heavy" being relative). At this level, I would assume "geek the mage" will swiftly turn into "geek the archer" (which in fact is often the PCs tactic in games).

We could consider the armour piercing question similarly to the discussion of firearms and body armour that was had in the Dark Champions sub forum (a fascinating read with results I stole for my home use), with certain armour automatically giving arrows AP, rather than making AP an attribute of the arrow naturally. Perhaps taking the same kind of divide with "soft" and "hard" armours. There would be a good reason to want to stack various armour types (as was done historically). You could even go with the plate carrier idea to cover the use of that hard armour.

The more complexity that gets added, the longer each attack will take. It makes me inclined to hit the cinematic reality level and throw the rest into the realm of hand-wavium. Narration of attacks in games should be less "you hit for 10 damage? You cut a deep gash into his side and he keeps fighting" and more "You score a telling blow against his chest armour, you're pretty sure he has a bruised rib". Luckily Hero has a built in mechanic to help with his, the division between STUN and BODY. You can judge easily how serious a wound is by how much BODY is left and temper expectations accordingly.

I think I meandered off my point somewhere in there. It's been a long week...

19 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah I have not pulled the cord on this yet but I have a scheme I have considered for a while now to have armor be 14- activation to half armor protection to represent joints, etc.  So you still get armor, just not the full coverage in that particular spot, then make it a -6 OCV area to aim at.

 

I agree that the damage range does simulate different qualities of hits (you rolled a 2? OK it glanced off a plate of armor -- GM descriptions and role playing can really liven yet another bandit fight).  That's a really simple system to use and my yen for complicated systems that give super crunchy realism is waning over time.  But the activation system still has appeal to me because its an absolute mechanic: you know what happened.

If you wanted really nitty gritty, you could have the players roll the random hit location, then apply the attack vs a separate DCV based on the armour type in that location. For example, someone wearing purely a breastplate might get +1 DCV when attacked to the chest area. Whereas someone in chain and a breastplate might get +2 DCV. (Numbers are for example purposes only) Then you know that they managed to slip around the armour. You still apply damage reduction normally, as the armour would likely still impede the strike.

I was using a borrowed chain shirt under my brigandine armour once that lacked a complete armpit section (hard part to build correctly and can be restrictive). I'm left handed and threw a straight shot against someone with a shield to bring the shield up and side step around to the right. Didn't move fast enough and the shield user hit me in the armpit with a rising cut. Luckily I had a gambeson, but even with that, the blunt steel hit with enough force to turn my armpit and left upper chest some nice shades of blue and green over the next few hours.

All that to say, yes, armour reduces damage, but it also (normally) makes you harder to "hit".

The vast majority of SCA guys I have run into were in metal, but with weight saving adjustments you wouldn't find available in period (typically aluminum, but leather covered plastic popped up every now and then). Actually, my current legs are an old aluminim set gifted to me from one such person after bringing a mercenary force to bolster their force in a local crown war. Most of them were dual kitting for Adrian Empire and SCA and Adria's armour requirements kind of favour all metal.

And you're right about cost. The price of the metal also wasn't the only limiting factor. Size of plates was as well. The technology for creating large plates with a consistent thickness was... new, depending on the time period. And hand working metal into shape can thin the armour in spots creating weaknesses. This is one of the reasons a "plate of coats" was pretty common up to a point. Cheaper with less chance of thin spots. You would pay good money for a smith/armourer that could work the metal without those imperfections.

My experience with pure leather armours are... limited (again, rules that favour the wear of metal). But my "field repair kit" is a couple hammers, a handful of rivets (various sizes), a metal punch, a leather punch, buckles, and leather straps. If I'm wearing mail I also grab a pair of pliers and a small section of chain I can steal rings from. The strapping tends to get the brunt of the wear and cracks or breaks in plates basically mean that piece is done, it needs to be replaced completely (welding a plate back together is never as good as the original). Dents are kind of normal and a light touch with a hammer will fix most issues. But it all adds up weight-wise. The kit is probably close to the 25 lbs range. In game terms, that's less treasure weight or more burden for LTE.

Unfortunately, I have little time for fighting anymore.

Wrath and Nature

The Story

Centuries ago, a leader was wronged greatly by the deeds of his neighbor. In his wrath he mobilized his army and attacked. He promised sacrifices, glory, and a place of honor for the God of Wrath when he eliminated the enemy. In return, the leader was granted a powerful artifact to accomplish his goal. At first, he laid waste to not just the kingdom but also squandered the power of the artifact destroying the land as well. To the point that when it came time to make the final push to destroy his enemy, he had nothing left.

The leader was forced to flee with the remnants of his army, back across the blasted landscape. But his actions and failure had drawn the ire of two gods, Nature and Wrath both cursed him and the entire army. Nature turned the scattered force into stone, creating a massive field of standing stones, but Wrath wasn't happy with that alone and cursed the spirits of the soldiers and their leader to be forever constrained by those stones, never allowed to pass on, always suffering.

The Location

During the day, walking among the stones, reddish sand and mud one is filled with the majesty of the site, but is constantly filled with a sad sense of loss. In small pockets inside the valley and up to it's edges, nature is slowly turning back the devastation. It may take centuries more, but Nature is nothing but patient.

At night the eerie wailing of the soldiers can still be heard echoing through the air. It is whispered that spending the night within is to invite Spirits of Wrath to attack, or worse to possess those who hold anger in their hearts and incite them to great acts of evil. Either way, those who survive a night in the valley are forever changed by the experience.

Two towns have taken root on opposite edges of the valley, surviving in the restored areas. One venerates Nature and the other has those who venerate Wrath. The towns function as waypoints for travelers who want to traverse the valley. Since it is unsafe at night, a group can cross the entire valley in one day if they are capable of maintaining a nice steady pace and they have a navigator skilled enough to not get lost in the maze of ravines and standing stones.

Several sealed burial sites, convenient caves really, have been found for the countless dead, those wounded in battle with no medical help or starved during the march back. Somewhere in the blasted ravines and crags of the valley it is said that the artifact still sleeps, hidden before the destruction wrought upon the army. Adventurers use the towns as jumping off points as well, making forays into the valley. But even during the day it is unwise to disturb the souls trapped and tortured within.

On 11/7/2022 at 4:53 AM, pawsplay said:

I've won real-ish armor, and I think the greatest danger you would face in medieval combat was cooking alive like a Hot Pocket from your own body heat after 10-15 minutes of heavy combat.

Oh man, so true. Fighting in mid summer SoCal heat required constant water intake. You basically sweat out everything you take in. I would imagine fighting in a long pitched battle all day would be horrendous.

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well they are kinda both, you can both block with them and attack with them.  A shield is like a mobile section of armor which the opponent either attacks through or tries to bypass by targeting other locations.  But you can also slam someone with it or hit them with the edge.  Some shields were even equipped with blades and spikes to help with that.

You just described a longsword...

You can both block with it and attack with it. Used properly it is a mobile section of armour the opponent has to attack through or bypass by targeting other locations. You can also slam someone with the crossguard or pommel and some longswords were even equipped with spiked crossguards to help with that.

My argument still stands. Shields are weapons

My snarky comment aside, while I respect the shield and what it does for foot soldiers, it needs to be actively employed to gain most of the benefit in the skirmish style fighting we find ourselves in with fantasy RPGs. Since we are discussing armour emulation, you could, perhaps, say that a shield adjusts your DCV more than it reduces damage (adds to PD) like other "armour". But its ultimate benefit, even in Hero, comes from it being actively used in combat (Block), which is an attack.

Shields aren't armour though, they're weapons.

There is this YouTube masterpiece. Intro is a bit rough, fight starts at about 6 minutes in.

https://youtu.be/8vYFFx4whoE

On 9/26/2022 at 8:05 AM, LoneWolf said:

The normal LTE rules will actually prevent a fantasy hero character from using full plate for much more than 4 hours before they become exhausted.   Assuming characters have a 10 Maximum REC before paying double.  Full plate weighs 40kg, a large shield weights 7kg, throw in a weapon and some other gear and the character carrying at least 50kg.   In a Fantasy Hero (Heroic) game END cost 1 per 5.  That means a character with at least 2 SPD is using 4 END per phase just for STR, if he moves that brings his END use up to 6 for the turn.  That means a character with a 10 REC loses 1 LTE per 5 minutes.  So, after 4 hours and 10 minutes the character is completely out of END.  It will take him 25 hours to fully recover all his LTE.   After 5 hours of rest the character will have recovered 10 LTE (or his recover), which would allow him to walk for another 50 minutes.  

 

If the character has a higher SPD it gets even worse if he is using his full SPD.  You can reduce your SPD, but only to 2.  

 

Most people forget that moving cost END and don’t factor that in.  There is no need to create special rule for this, all you need to do is to apply the rules that already exist.  The maximum weight a character can carry without having to worry about LTE is about 25 KG.  That pretty much restricts you to DEF 5 or less armor.  If a character does not buy up his REC to near max, it is even worse. 
 

I would give a weight break for wearing the armour. It is way different to carry around a bag/box full or armour and to actually have it strapped around your person. But if you're going for that accuracy of the effects of armour on LTE, the rules absolutely work for that. A lot of people don't want to play the encumbrance game though, so that aspect of wearing armour usually gets dropped.

6 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

One thing to keep in mind is that vs the type of foes that were actually encountered in the real world the weapons did a lot less damage than in the game.  Unlike in a game, historically the only real opponents people in the Middle Ages faced were other humans. Humans during that time period where actually smaller than they are today, and in the game, characters are even larger.  That means the average sword was not doing anywhere near max damage.  

 

A person attacking you with a sword was probably doing 1d6 +1.  That means the maximum damage they can do is 7 BODY.   DEF 8 armor means they cannot actually do any BODY.  Even a critical hit to the head (assuming hit locations are being used) only does 19 STUN to a character with wearing full plate and PD of 8.  The average damage from a long sword is 4.5 Body and 11.25 STUN.  This means the knight in full plate takes no damage form the average sword hitting him.  
 

This, spot on. It was one of the first things that struck me when I saw the published guidelines for plate, the average attack will do nothing against plate. You need to push one of the larger two-handed weapons to do any damage, get really lucky, or have a combat technique to negate some of the advantage of armour (half-swording FTW). Those special fighting techniques were also not something the standard fighter on the field would possess. But then, considering the exorbitant cost of plate, it was well worth it to those who could afford it.

But, for the sake of running a game, we make exceptions. How many people actually play the "Real Armour" part of the disads? How many people charge their players for the upkeep (replacing buckles, strapping, pounding out dents, etc)? Make the players spend time doing maintenance while adventuring? Good armour is going to require a lot of maintenance in the field to protect it against the elements and stave off rust and rot. Some of the real major disadvantages of plate are distinctly *not fun* for most play groups.

10 hours ago, Old Man said:

Oddly enough I think Hero does get it a little wrong when it models plate.  Stabbing through armor is almost all-or-nothing--either you just make a dent or you get all the way through, there isn't much in between.  It's hard to model--against 8 rPD plate, a hit for 8 BODY would do nothing, but a hit for 9 BODY should do... 9 BODY.

I respectfully disagree with that assertion. The weapon puncturing the plate loses a significant amount of energy in the process. This us why penetration depth is also important to measure when watching "test" videos. Not all armour penetration means the weapon suddenly has free reign to damage the target. It by no means is all or nothing. On your 9 damage attack, there was only enough energy left in the attack to slightly stick the fleshy bits beneath... for 1 Body.

I tend to lean more toward pushing language into the "narrative" realm. So unless it serves an interesting narrative for the game, I assume communication happens, whether it's some galactic basic, everyone knows a little of the language, or a universal translator. Modifying your scale, with one being hard language/communication requirements and 10 being hand-wavium everyone can communicate, probably in the 8 or 9 range.

On 8/10/2022 at 5:38 PM, m.mavnn said:

In the campaign I'm playing with converting, I (the GM) have used the spell several times to give the players specific pieces of information rather than (or more accurately, as an excuse for) the skill bonus. After all - it is actually showing snippets from books you probably haven't read.

I think this is the crux of the spell, really. The point of the spell is to conditionally feed information to the players. That is the reason knowledge skills exist in the first place. Roll dice, learn something the Player doesn't know, not something the PC doesn't know. If the information is something the players need to move forward it should be handed over to the players on a silver platter with a giant neon sign saying "Quest Info Here". In either PF or Hero, if a PC has some level of proficiency in a skill then the GM can just decide that the character knows the piece of information. Especially since the GM is interpreting what exactly a successful knowledge roll gives to the player anyway.

Personally, I would not go beyond Skill Levels, maybe with Requires a Roll (maybe a flat roll). Failure means you did not find anything. That is essentially what the spell does.

If it is a part of the PCs shtick, then why make it more complicated than game permission for buying a couple skill levels for knowledge only? It adds so much potential for RP as the character keeps diving back to the book/spell to try and figure a problem out rather than truly learning anything. Hell, maybe it is at a point where it is complication worthy.

19 hours ago, mhd said:

So not even the default 6E encumbrance rules, but half that for worn armor, i.e. field plate would "cost" me 14kg? Hmm. I mean, I get that people want to countermand the old cliche that you'd need to be lifted on your horse by a crane. And yes, you can sprint, do cart-wheels etc. in plate. A higher END loss wouldn't change that anyway. But it being no more fatiguing than regular clothing?

There's at least one study that comes to a different conclusion, and I'm sure there's even more about contemporary soldier loads.

 

Never mind that part of me favoring the more drastic penalties comes from a gamist perspective. I'm okay with fewer DCV penalties, but heavily armored combat having different rest patterns can be quite interesting in my experience. Just more money being spent in your typically dysfunctional fantasy economy is a bit boring.

I would love to read that whole study. I will have to see if I can acquire it from my school library. Interesting to point out that the study found running to be energetically less expensive. Here's the thing with the actual fighting, most of the muscles used aren't as heavily affected by the armour as simply walking and if you train to fight in armour you fight with the same motions out of it. Would there be a difference if I had to fight for half a day on a battlefield walking /running to different areas? For sure. For the length of time of the typical fantasy skirmish? Not that I would experience.

But I am glad you have a clear idea of what you want from armour in your games. I think most gamers would smile, nod, and play the game no matter what set of specifications we use. We just love gaming

Maybe something a little wonky. Part hedge mage, part con man. He uses artifacts from the previous age of wonder to fuel his magic, but portrays it all as coming from himself. Yeah, there's an element of skill in drawing out the magical energy and shaping it into a spell, but careless use will burn the artifacts out. Since no artifact will last forever, he is constantly searching for ancient artifacts to bank for future spellwork.

He is accustomed to a certain amount of prestige/fear that comes with being a "wizard" and is deathly afraid of the day that he will no longer be able to find an artifact for fuel. This clouds his judgement sometimes and puts him in difficult situations, trying to grab something on the way out when he should only be worried about outrunning the giant rolling boulder.

Armour weight is a weird beast in general, even in real life. There is definitely a difference between carting around a bag/box of armour and walking around *in* it. Lugging my armour chest from my trunk to a camp site might wind me pretty bad, but I could walk around in it for quite a while before I started to fatigue from the extra weight. Fighting in it is, honestly, only slightly more fatiguing than going with just a gambeson.

So, the idea that worn armour should have a lower cost towards encumbrance penalties jives in my head. Particularly if you are well trained in its use. I have definitely seen people sprint 20 yards in plate to exploit a break in a line, fight through, and be perfectly ready to keep fighting.
 

What it really comes down to, is what kind of effect do you want in your game? Do you want people to armour up? Do you want more cinematic blade-dancing? Do you want people to be able to negate armour penalties to represent their increased skill with the armour? I love representing armour in a more realistic way, but sometimes that isn't what I want. Tweak those dials and find what you like best.

Bummer. This was a really cool concept I was waiting for... quietly.

The cove itself was originally cut into the rock by a mid-sized river. Over time and with the assistance of human (or other races if your world has them) the cove has been cut into a deep multi-tiered affair with the river still running through the middle. After the cove was expanded copper, iron, and other metals (prized by magic-users but dangerous to most people if not handled correctly) were found in the hills and mountains further inland. These, now abandoned and dried up, mines were the primary catalyst that drove the expansion of Corvid Cove.

The miners and stoneworkers using the port expanded and grew the city, bridging the river, levelling out areas, creating buildings, ramps and stairs. There's even a small network of, long unused, freight escalators. Many of the structures still standing are from this hey-day of the mining boom, solidly built from stone into or up against the rock itself. Most residents live at the very top or very bottom, either working land or surviving on what trade still comes through.

Walking the empty streets is a little disconcerting to the newcomer, as the stone takes sound and bounces it around. Is that one crow, or a chorus? Your footfalls, or is someone... someTHING following, just out of sight...