Brian Stanfield

This is not doing anything like an Easy Mode, nor is it removing any of the build rules.  Just a re-order of presentation and adding the completely missing play part. 
 
Everything that you liked and preferred is still there. The only difference is that new players will have actual context on how the rules actually interact before trying to build. If a new player will not read the build chapter after playing the mini-campaign, then they will never have bothered to read it as is. 
 
But the current method of what is basically simply repeating the exact same thing and expecting a different result isn't working.  There really isn't anything wrong with the rule system, which leaves changing presentation.  Both information and visual.  I am only referring to the information side based on what I have personally experienced.
 
Most of the gamers that I know and have tried to sell on Hero simply don't read further than the first part of CharGen. 
But a player that plays a game is much more to likely to read the rest of it.
 
This is mostly babble of course and I don't have any great magical insight.  But I do know that people now approach things entirely different than we did. No computers, no internet and somewhere between 3 and 30 channels that you could only watch real time unless you recorded them on a tape.  In the winter I can remember going to bed early because I'd finished my last book and there was nothing (as usual) interesting on TV.  Wading through a textbook was nothing to stave off boredom.  Today?  There is no boredom, not like there was.  You have access to thousands of informational feeds from a multitude of sources today.  
 
Either the difference is acknowledged and the method of delivery is adapted to the new realities or we just give up. But to be candid, having Hero types constantly falling back on "I didn't do it that way and anyone that isn't up to my personal vision is just not worth having as a gamer" doesn't help.  We are at the point where there needs to be change.  I had hoped that the creative commons would open that door, but instead it is a crippled version of creative commons that will not produce adventure material taking place in the actual Hero settings. 
 
I really don;t know why I keep returning for more self punishment.

OK, I am going to take the other side of this argument.  Can you provide me with the rules citation under which this tactic was successful?  Not the rule for a druid who can shapechange, nor for whatever combination of feats, spells, traits, racial elements, archetypes or what have you which permitted him to shapechange instantly. 
 
The specific rules under which his tactic was determined to automatically sink the pirate ship.
 
Because it seems to me that a Hero character could use his Flight to dive down onto a pirate ship, then Reserve so that, the moment before impact, he activates his Growth and his Density Increase to crash through the ship.  The GM would then have to adjudicate the results of that action.
 
Just like a Pathfinder GM would have to adjudicate the results in your example.
 
Would the mammoth, in fact, cannonball through the upper and lower decks and through the hull?  Would it do so much damage in its passing that the pirate ship would instantly sink, or would it founder, allowing the pirates a chance to board the enemy ship (which, presumably, they would be in a much bigger hurry to do, with their own ship holed)?  Would it really do so in such a controlled manner than no harm was done to the other ship, to which it is close enough to allow the pirates to board, or would a big chunk of pirate ship ram into the PCs' ship? 
 
I doubt we will find rules for these possibilities in either Hero or Pathfinder.  Please cite the rules in question if I am in error in this regard.
 
I suspect, more likely, that the GM may have decided "that's pretty cool - I will allow it". Or maybe he just let himself get fast-talked by a player with a clever plan and a glib tongue.  But that could happen in either game system.

Its not a game breaking element in HERO, though.  What he did was a move-through.  Pathfinder apparently did not require him to apply damage to _himself_.  In HERO, he probably wouldn't have done as well. 
 
 
 
 
Yes and no. 
 
There is _no_ chance of any character using a power or ability he doesn't already have:
 
If Animan turns into a bird, he is using his Flight, which he has already bought and paid for.  If he then turns into a mammoth, he is using his STR, his Growth, and possibly his Density Increase--  all of which he has already bought and paid for. 
 
So why is it "game breaking" when one guy does it by turning into two animals, but perfectly fine for SuperDude to do the same thing with his flight, growth, and Density Increase. 
 
SD activates his Flight (instantly) and soars skyward.  He turns off his Flight and activates his Growth (also instantly).  As he drops earthward, he wonders if he has the mass needed to crush completely through the deck and the hull below.  Why take chances?  He turns on his DI.  Instantly. 
 
Nobody has a problem with this. 
 
 
Thank you; that's kind of you to say. 
 
 
 
Assuming you are talking about the way we used to have to do it-- the way I still dot  there is no need because it is already limited: it is not a power.  It does absolutely nothing.  It is a special effect for some _actual power_ that is limited by its own build and rules desription. 
 
What's the _game mechanic difference_ between I punch him, my fist glowing with the power of my additional +4 hand to hand attack. 
 
And I turn into a gorilla and lay one on him? 
 
None.  Only the special effect.   And we don't charge for those. 
 
 
 
 
The only time you have issues is if you are an over-builder:
 
Someone turns into a mouse as SFX for Shrinking and you insist that he can't be a mouse because he doesn't also have Climbing Skill. 
 
The problem comes when you demand someone pay for every potential ability that you personally can justify that animal having.  He doesn't need them.  Being a horse is his special effect for using his breath strength and running to carry a wounded comrade to safety.  He doesn't need Leaping just because horses can leap.  I mean, they don't talk or think like people either, but few GMs will require you lose those abilities just because you're a horse, so why does he need to by "wiggle skin at will to shake off house flies" to be a horse? 
 
He doesn't.  Being a horse is the sfx for being strong and fast.  Period. 
 
Being instantly able to change shape is exactly as balanced or unbalanced as being instantly able to activate the particular power he is using, period. 
 
So try this: Entangle, no range. 
 
I touch him and freeze him in a block of ice. 
Vines sprout from my finger tips and wrap him securely. 
I draw the Earth from  beneath his feet and it rises and traps him.
I use my stretching Power to enlarge my hand and wrap him up. 
I turn into a giant python and wrap him up. 
 
 
Why the Hell is one of these just automatically wrong? 
 

I’ve almost given up trying to explain my thoughts over the years.  It is almost as if I speak a different language.
 
I don’t understand the constant referral to the need to change the rules as they are written.  5th Ed, 6th Ed, Basic Rulebook (both rulesets), Fantasy Complete and Champions Complete.  They are all fine as written.  The rules are fine.
 
I say again.
 
THE RULES ARE FINE.
 
The problem is not the rules themselves. 
The problem is that understanding how the rules actually work in play is not straight forward.  They are easy, once they click.  For some people that is not an issue, they get it just from reading the book.  Some people get it from reading a super battle walk through.  Some people get it from a detailed description of a power build. 
But the majority don’t. 
 
The issue is not another rewrite of the rules. 
 
The issue is the need to add the missing chapter.
 
A short pre-generated micro-campaign with pre-generated PC’s, equipment, adversaries and so on.  Initially presented with NO POINT BUILD TOTALS VISIBLE.  Just the in-play stats. 
 
The idea is for the new to hero players to read through the playing rules, NOT THE BUILD RULES, and then play.
 
I’ll expand using Fantasy Complete, mostly because I can crib off of D&D and everyone will get my meaning.
Reorganize the rulebooks, not by rewriting, but by reordering.  Or at least to limited editing to make the flow work.  Basically move “Core Concepts And Game Basics” (page 7-10) and “Character Creation” (page 16-152)(not pages 153 & 154) behind “Combat” page 187. 
 
The book order would change from:
·        Table of Contents
·        Introduction
·        Core Concepts
·        Core Concepts and Game Basics
·        Character Creation
o   Results and Recognition
o   Heroic Action Points
o   Experience Points
o   Movement
·        Characters and the World
·        Combat
·        Equipment
·        Swords and Sorcery — Fantasy Roleplaying
·        Appendix 1: Playing Other Genres
·        Appendix 2: Summary & Reference Tables
·        Index
To a the new order of:
       ·        Table of Contents
·        Introduction
·        Core Concepts
·        Core Concepts and Game Basics
o   Results and Recognition
o   Heroic Action Points
o   Experience Points
o   Movement
·        Characters and the World
·        Combat
·        Micro-Campaign
·        Character Creation
·        Equipment
·        Swords and Sorcery — Fantasy Roleplaying
·        Appendix 1: Playing Other Genres
·        Appendix 2: Summary & Reference Tables
·        Appendix 3: Micro Campaign Build sheets.
·        Index
 
All of the chunking dice actual playing rules would be presented first and just before the “micro-campaign”.  While all the “how we build characters and stuff” would fallow on the heels of the “micro-campaign”. The micro-campaign would have all of the setting, creatures, equipment and pregen characters plus prebuilt advancement abilities to allow the PC’s to advance on a loose equivalent of first through third “level”.   All presented as end items with NO BUILD POINTS DISPLAYED.  An added appendix would have all that for when the new players become curious. 
 
The idea is:
·        New players buy book.
·        They read the “rules”.
·        They PLAY the micro-campaign.
·        They then read the Build Rules and Campaign Build advice.
·        They then go on the either expand the micro-campaign or build their own unique world now that they actually can see how thing work in play.
 
In my opinion this is why Hero is fading fast. It placed the cart before the horse and is too proud to admit everyone is driving cars. 
Anyway, my 2 cents.
Again......

That's exactly it. 

I'd forgotten about the dice. Thanks!
 
I've been in an MHI campaign now for 2 years or so. Tons of fun.
 
And the author Larry is a hoot. I only see him in person these days a couple times a year, but he's a great guy.
 

So this was a game breaking element last time I played Pathfinder (the first and last time, actually). A buddy had a character who could transform at will with no time delay. So when we were on a ship that got boarded by pirates, he turned into an eagle and flew as far up as he could, then dove back toward the ship and transformed into a mammoth at the last second, cannon-balling his way through the pirate ship, sinking it, and then simply transforming into a shark until he could get all the drowning pirates, and then transform back to himself to re-board our ship. This took him a couple of turns, and nothing more, and he pretty much single-handedly ended that encounter. 
 
It seems like your example could lead to something like this, which makes me a bit uneasy. Don't get me wrong: I'm pretty much convinced by your overall argument. I love it in fact. But there ought to be some limitations on the instant change part of shapeshifting. Of course, those are campaign limitations that the GM ought to define anyway. But I'm not very experienced in these sorts of builds, so I'm not too sure how "unbalancing" it might be in HERO. It most definitely was, however, in Pathfinder. 

Duke, my friend, you are a poet! This is the best laugh I've had in a couple of weeks. Thank you for your uniquely stream-of-consciousness way of posting!

Duke, my friend, you are a poet! This is the best laugh I've had in a couple of weeks. Thank you for your uniquely stream-of-consciousness way of posting!

Ah!  Yes; I see.  Thank you for the clarification.
 
I apologize in advance for what you have just cut the straps on.  ;)*
 
 
Loaded question, Sir, but I suspect you already knew that.
 
So let me answer it as objectively as I can:
 
_mmmmMaybe_....
 
See, the thing is, I-- I, you, Doc, Hugh, LL-- anyone who knows the system, really-- can _easily_ paint you a thousand-and-two pictures  of a game broken by T-form on self.  Hell, we can all paint you a picture of how Energy Blast can break the game!  All you have to do is....  take the controls off of it.   Combine NND and Does BODY.  Make it exempt to damage caps.  Put a freakin' AOE and an auto-reset Trigger and even a couple of Autofires on there for good measure.  That's break the _hell_ out of a game right there.
 
And that's it.  That's the whole thing.  We don't use "T-form (self)" because we don't want to impose limits on T-form.  Ironically, we do it all the time.  Even know, T-form is broken into three district classes (you know: to make it _cheaper_ for a lot of things that are actually _more_ useful than a dead guy, which is still going to cost you 15 /die as a Killing Attack.)
 
But for some reason, when we see T-form (self), we don't see those limits.  We don't see the GM saying "I want a list of what you can and can't T-form into before game time" or "fine, but no more than X AP in your new form" or _any_ sort of ruling or guidance.  What we see is "holy crap!  he can turn himself into anything; have any power; touch any cap--!  We can't allow that!"
 
So do I think it's possible to have T-form (self) and it _not_ break the game?  Sure.  Of course I do.
 
Do I think T-form (self) is just automatically going to break the game?
 
No more than "Power Pool."  Seriously.  Power Pool can do exactly what T-form (self) can do:  it can give you any power, any ability, touch any limit or cap....
 
If you take the controls off.  I don't know any GMs who don't limit pool size right off the bat, and most of them demand some sort of thematic thread running through whatever gets pulled out of the pool.  T-form can do it cheaper (if you wait long enough); Power Pools can do it faster (zero phase change?  No problem.    )
 
Put some heavy borders on T-form (self), and you've got a different sort of Power Pool, and not much else.  So for my money, T-form self is no more broken or dangerous than an unregulated Pool or really, an unregulated anything else.
 
 
 
Why'd you go and do that?  
 
The only problem with Shapeshift is that it's not valid because it makes you pay for a special effect.  Well that, and you don't actually shift shape: you just convince everyone else that you did.
 
You asked for it, my friend.  Please forgive me for doing it this way, but I actually have a "standardize rant" on this subject that I just save and re-paste as needed.  I really didn't want to do that to you, but it's stupidly late here, and I've got to go to work in the morning.  I hope you can forgive this, or at least excuse it long enough for me to have time to think up an all-new rant on this topic.  
 
Enjoy:
 
 
First and foremost, I have no idea what edition of HERO / Champions anyone started with.  Most of the membership seems to have started with 3e, but there are few that started with 2e, and a few less (like me) who started with 1e.
 
The problem I have with the new "official shape shift" is twofold:
 
1) there was already something in place that worked extremely well.
 
2) it's not necessary.  You're quantifying and then paying for the quantification of what amounts to a special effect.  I have no idea why this isn't anathema to more people.
 
 
So to get a summary that might start a conversation, let me offer this:
 
Only in Heroic ID. 
 
This is a Power Limitation that I _know_ has been around since 2e, and may have appeared in 1e as well (I really don't remember; I haven't played 1e since I got my first 2e book).  It wasn't in the main book, but was a found in a write-up -- I can't recall if it was a sample of "how to" or an actual character in a supplement; Chris Goodwin could help you with that, if you're interested.  Guy has a mind for details like Hugh does for math. 
 
Anyway, only in HERO ID rather readily becomes "Only in X ID."  pair it with something like Instant Change, and poof!  Shapeshifter.   Seriously.   Had a character way back when who wanted to emulate some comic book guy (I'm not much up on comics; I love Champions, but never got into comics.  Accordingly, my take on superheroes may be a bit skewed.   ) who had the power to turn into various animals but they all had to be green or grey or-- anyway, they were all the wrong color.
 
So how did we do that?  How did we do that in any edition prior to 5e?  
 
Well there was multiform in 4e.  I can't remember where that came from, either.  I want to say it was an old Adventurers Club article, but I could well be wrong.  It could have been Champions III for all I remember-- sorry; when I get tired, my memory gets terrible.  I actually know this answer, and just can't think of it right now.  Not that it's terribly important, of course: the final answer is that Multiform became "officialized" in 4e.
 
Ironically, we didn't really need _that_, either, as it's pretty much Shape shift all over again:  
 
I have a guy who turns into different things!
 
Cool!  A shapeshifter!
 
No; he doesn't shape shift.  He just turns into different things.
 
So he turns into multiple forms?
 
Right.
 
And each form has a different shape?
 
Well sure!
 
Shape shifter.
 
No!  You're not listening to me...!
 
 
 
You see how that goes?   
 
 
Between you and me, I can't help but think that Multiform was implemented to make shape shifting somehow "cheaper," but it bit them in the backside, as it limits the number of shapes into which you can shift.  Perversely, it lets you make a limited number of forms that are extremely powerful, which you may or may not be able to pull off "old school."  You can _certainly_ do it cheaper than new-fangled Shape Shift!
 
 
So...   absolutely no one before 4e made a shape shifter, ever.
 
 
Well that's a damned lie, and I can prove it, because I had several players make shape-shifters even before there was a _third_ edition, let alone a fourth.  Plastic Man is a character I am passingly familiar with, and in the mid-eighties, he had a Saturday morning cartoon, and clones just _kept_ popping up in my games for a while. And of course, person-to-an-arkload-of-animals never really went away completely.
 
 
How where we doing it?   Well that's pretty simple, really:  Only in X ID became "Only in appropriate ID."  Call it "only in Hero ID," if you want, because when he was shifting shapes, well that wasn't as Joey Bagadonuts; that was as the hero!
 
 
 
Let's back up a bit and examine something:
 
When you're building a character, what does it cost to be a normal human male?  Wait--- "Nothing?"  Are you _sure_ about that?  Woah-- seriously?  It really costs _nothing_?  You can just say "okay, my guy's a normal human male, about six-foot two (so Batman can still feel tall), two-hundred sixty pounds, thirty-two years of age, brown hair, green eyes-- you can just _be_ all that, and it costs _nothing_?!  Dude, that is _cool_.  I mean, that's just an awesome game right there!
 
No; wait-- can't fool me!  I've got it now-- what's it cost to be a normal human _female_?   WHAT?!  "Nothing" _AGAIN_?!  No; something can't be right here.  You can be a man or a woman and neither one costs _anything_?
 
Oh!  It's because I said "normal," right?   So what would it cost to be like, a cyborg or something, with like mechanical legs and an electric heart?  Dude, you are LYING to me!  It can't possibly be _NOTHING_!
 
 
All right, how about an _alien_?!  Yeah; I want to be a blue-and-red-skinned alien with like a big shark fin on my head and webbed hands and my eyes on like snake stalks and four arms.  How much does _that_ cost?  Wha-- this is BULL, Man!  That can't be free!  Well how about if I wanted to be a robot?  That, too?!   A mannequin possessed by the tormented soul of a Victorian orphan child killed in a ritual satanic sacrifice?  A multi-dimensional hyper-intelligent barracuda?  How about the _car_ Barracuda?  Hemi-cuda?
 
Dude, how is all that free?!  It doesn't make sense!   Wait?  What's this about "just being?"  So...  'what I am' is just the special effects of 'being'?   That's pretty deep, man...
 
Oh!  How about if I want to be like, really short, like dwarf tall?!  Free?!  
 
Well okay, but in what _way_ am I a female alien cyborg?  No, I mean, like, do I just _look_ like one; do I just _sound_ like one; do I just _feel_ like one; do I---?
 
I "just am?"  So there's no way that someone is going to look at me or put me under a magnifying glass or examine my nostril leavings and go "Oh, wait!  It's just a guy in female alien cyborg suit---- WAIT!  What if I wanted to be a _black guy?_!  That's got to cost, right?   Are you _kidding_ me?!  So I can just _say_ that I am something, and I _am_ that thing?!
 
 
All right.  I think that horse is as dead as it's going to get. 
 
Now let's look at that in the context of powers:  If I have -- forgive me if you started with 6e; I don't use much 6e terminology as I didn't start with and don't really use it-- Energy Blast.
 
If I say "It's fire from my hands," then it's fire from my hands, period.  No other player will question it; no GM will question it.  It _is_ fire, period.
 
If I say "it's fire from a flame thrower," the exact same thing happens:  it just _is_, and it is because I said it is.  If I say it's gun or a taser or a lightning bolt, that's what it _is_, period, and no sense-- not even the special ones-- is going to determine that it is anything else, because that's the special effect I have chosen.
 
 
Now let's say that I have a gun that shoots poison-- liquid poison, directly into someone's eyes?  I build it as a Linked attack: it does damage, and it has a Flash Attack, and possibly even a Transform: sighted to blind-- all rolled into one.  No one will for a moment doubt that that gun is real, because that gun _is_ real.  It's the special effect for that attack:  I whip out my "what the hell kind of sick twisted person invented something like this?!" gun and I start doing evil things to every person I can see.  It's valid, because it's the real special effect for my power.
 
 
Now suppose my character is an alien snake man who "just do" this thing:  maybe he's got little ducts in his teeth and he just spits a venom that does damage, contains a flash and does Transform: sighted to blind.  Who doubts that he-- my character, the alien snake man-- is a real alien snake man?  No matter what "sense group" I probe with, the result is always going to be "alien snake man who isn't a cyborg or a guy dressed up like an alien snake man," right?
 
 
Now suppose I have that _identical_ power, but my special effect is that I turn into a spitting cobra to do it?
 
 
Suddenly there's a problem?  Suddenly I _look_ like a spitting cobra, but I smell / feel / taste / sound like a six-foot-two two-hundred-forty pound normal human _camoflagued_ as a spitting cobra?
 
What the heck, Man?
 
It's ridiculous.  You are not only being required to pay for a special effect, you are being required to pay _multiple times_ for a special effect: you want to appeal to all eleven possible HERO System senses, right?   _all_ of them!  Not just sight, but infrared sight, too!  It would suck to _look_ like a snake, only to show up in IR scans as a rather large guy in his late thirties.....
 
So how did we handle shape shift before "the rules finally allowed it?"
 
Just like that:  it was the special effect for your powers, period.  We could get creative:  if we wanted to "lock out" certain things and "lock in" certain things, "Only in appropriate form." You know:  Only in Heroic ID.   Animal guy (I swear, I _think_ he called himself "Animan," so that we wouldn't realize he was ripping off "Manimal" from the then-popular TV show) had a laundry list of powers, all bought with the limitation "only in appropriate form."  Seriously:  a list of powers and bonuses to his Characteristics, all with that limitation.  If he wanted to fly, he turned into something that could fly.  If he wanted to fly and have excellent perception, he turned into something like that-- a hawk or something: Flight and +4 PER (sight) and telescopic sight (x100), but he had to be a winged raptor of some variety.
 
If he wanted to be strong, he could turn into an ox.  If he wanted to be strong and have a manipulable appendage-- Gorilla!  Or an elephant...  Bonus!  As an elephant, he could use that +4 PER (Hearing) he has listed for "only in appropriate form".   He could be a cow, a dinosaur, a mule-- whatever he wanted, so long as it was appropriate to the power or powers he was wanting to use at that time.  More PD and Shrinking?  Tortoise!  (no bonus to his movement, though).   Ultimate move-through?  Cheetah, launching itself into the air and becoming a buffalo!
 
 
All that with a handful of powers.  Strangely, cheaper-- way cheaper-- than just having four or five multi forms, and _better_, too, because he had _unlimited_ forms!  UN-STINKIN'-LIMITED!  
 
 
And he _was_ those things, because "just being" those things was his special effect, and there was no "versus this off-the-wall sensory concoction reveals that you're an old Brittish sketch comic in a dress and bad wig" nonsense that the current pile that Shape Shift is.
 
Suppose we had that, back in the old 250-point superhero days (which I still play, incidentally)?  By the time you bought _all_ of your shape shifts and a metric boatload of modifiers to use against your opponent's PER, -- well, you actually _couldn't_, because getting it nearly fool-proof would cost you more points than you actually had at your disposal, and there'd be nothing left to actually buy _useful, functioning_ powers with!
 
Note that, and note it well:  No matter _how_ much you spend on your Shape Shift under the 5e / 6e rules, you will never actually _be_ the thing.  You will always look / smell / taste / feel / sound like the thing, but never actually _be_ the thing.  There are many, many board members who will tell you that "it's the same," but it is _not_ the same, at least not if you are playing by the rules, _because_ ---
 
if anyone examining you rolls a natural 3, you're still a female alien cyborg trying to pass yourself off as a designer coffee table.  Amusingly enough, though, by the rules, they will _never_ disprove that you're a female alien cyborg, even if you're actually a middle-aged fat guy string around a table with his friends and some dice, and they will never disprove that because that was the special effect that you chose for "just existing" in the game world.
 
 
Shape shift is _nothing_, and I mean _nothing_ but a special effect for something else.  At no point in my gaming career (started mid-seventies, with the rest of us old fat guys) have I, in _any_ game system or any character conception, seen "Shape Shift" be the means to its own end: it was _always_ an enabling device for something else, _always_.   And what do we call enabling devices for skills and powers in the HERO System?
 
 
Special Effects.  They are completely _real_ in game terms, and they are completely _free_.
 
 
 
Honestly, today-- I mean right up through 6e, if I didn't already have a thirty-year "only in appropriate form" habit, I'd do it with Power Pool  and be done with it.  The only draw back to that approach is that there wouldn't be a laundry list of "pre-boughts" already written out on the C-sheet.  Sure, I could request them, but I'm not likely to change at this point.
 
 
 
 
 
Yep, and nothing.  It's a matter of perspective:  Oh!  T-form can give you powers you don't have!"
 
So can Power Pool, and no one bats an eye.
 
It's all about where you put your controls.
 
Good night, All.
 

A "complete in a book" game for Supers or Fantasy can be done.  They have been done.  But it means you get boundaries.
 
It may mean you get preconstructed powers/spells and you don't even get to see the mechanics behind them.  Perhaps our game has a "Vampirism" power that allows you to touch a target, and reduce his STUN and BOD, while boosting your own, and a "Siphon STR" power that allows you to reduce a target's STR at standard range.
 
Want a ranged Vampirism power, a Siphon DEX power, a slower recovery rate, or any of a myriad of a number of options?  Tough beans - this game has Vampirism and Siphon STR.
 
Want more powers and abilities?  Buy the entire system to craft your own, or buy the splatbooks and hope the author also thought that would be a cool addition.
 
Mutants and Masterminds is one example.  It has a lot of flexibility, and a lot of abilities, but nowhere near what "Full Hero" affords.  Marvel Supers (FASERIP) pretty much created new powers every time it created a new character - but you had to pick from the list.

See?  _This_ guy (I assume; apologies if I'm too badly wrong  ) gets it!  Small bites!  I don't know that it will take years, but there again:  I will _never_ know, because like so many of us old fossils, I started with 1e, played a couple of years, 2e came out, played it for a couple of years--- you see where this is going.  I _had_ those years, and the _only_ way to learn back then was to take small bites, so.....
 
Doesn't matter: it takes as long as it takes, period, and not one bit longer.  I _can_ say this, because it applies to learning pretty much anything:  The more of it you try to learn at once, the harder it's going to be to learn _any_ of it.   Cut the thing down to what _you_ want to focus on.  Notice I didn't say "the basics."  That's because what's "basic" to you might not be basic to me, etc, etc.  shave it down to what your personal core is.  Try it.  Once your all comfy, add a couple more things.  Got comfy again?  Add a little more.
 
Small bites.  You don't _ever_ "must" have the whole damned system in play.  
 
 
 
 
Thanks for clearing that up; my GM Sense was tingling.  Okay, fine: my GM heart was seizing, but my extremities were tingling and things went kinda red-and-muddy-green there for a moment or two, and that's about the same, right?
 
 
 
 
 
 
That.  So much _that_.  In all sincerity, unless a group has played together a few times before, I don't usually let anyone do that "eowh so dyark and mysteeryis" crap.  It never works out well, because the other players tend to just assume "Oh; he's playing a dick" and tend to sort of cut Emo Man out of the bulk of their inter-character interaction, and Emo Man never really figures out why.....
 
I find this problem far less likely to come up in groups familiar with one another, as they are usually completely able to understand "oh; he's doing a bit, and it'll all come out in the wash soon enough."
 
One of the many great things about Session Zero or Character Generation Parties is that the GM has a chance to very specifically spell out mandates and forbiddens for characters-- things like "you're character _must_ be a team player" or "willing to team up with new  people" or "not be a dick."  Those are valid.  You might even throw out "you have all known each other for about six months (in or out of costume, or both-- your choice), but you are tasked with deciding how."  _That_ stops a _lot_ of that eyowh sew mysteeryis crap right there.
 
Another thing to be aware of, as this happens more often than it doesn't:
 
the player has come up with some particular power or construct that he is _supremely_ proud of.  Quite often, he tends to think that it's far more clever or far more devastating than it really is.  He is waiting for what he feels is the "just absolutely perfect moment" to break it out and show it off.
 
This goes one of two ways:  Like when you hoarde all the really good guns and really big health packs when you're playing a video game, waiting until you _really need_ that one specific thing because nothing else can do what it does as well as it does, and then suddenly the game is over, the boss is defeated, and you're going "what the heck?!  I didn't even get to _use_ that cool stuff!"
 
I've seen that happen too many times.
 
"But Duke, you're job as the GM is to make sure that each player has the upturn---  
 
Shut up!  Just shut up.  I have him fifteen opportunities, scattered throughout the course of the summer.  _HE_ didn't _UTILIZE_ them, and short of saying "Hey, Randy, this is a great time to do the thing now!", there just isn't anything I can do to make him change his mind.
 
The other side of the coin (which I have seen a lot of as well, and I hate to say this, but it makes me giggle a bit, simply because the player has generally being something of a smug jackass, knowing he had his ace-in-the-hole mega-build:
 
It doesn't work.  Or it works, but not well.  Or it just doesn't do the thing, period.  Of course, he's been super-secret about it the whole damned time, so the other players are totally lost as to why he doesn't nothing while they all get their faces eaten and he starts whining and moaning about why no one else is helping because he can't get his head wrapped around the idea that they actually have NO DAMNED IDEA what's supposed to be happening or what you're trying to do, rendering them incapable of helping even if they want to......
 
 
But your game; your rules, 
 
 
and good luck to you, Sir.
 

Both are good points, but some concession ought to be made for the group rationale for being a group. But in all honesty, I've played with the idea where everyone starts the first session with no idea about what they can do, so they're a mystery to each other as well as to themselves! Kind of like Marvel's New Universe back in the '80s, where a global incident happened and people began manifesting strange powers, but knew nothing about what was happening or was going to happen. It would be fun to build characters as they play. But that's a whole different logistical problem: why do they get together in the first place. I'd still like to try it though. 
 
I'm dealing with the secrecy thing right now in my Pulp HERO group. They're all new to gaming for the most part, so they don't really have any benchmark expectations, which helps me greatly. But trying to keep the veil up while they learn to roleplay (while also learning to roll play) is challenging. Learning what to reveal and what to keep secret is a delicate balance. I had to create an artificial rationale to put them together, sort of a Dirty Dozen type of motif where they've been hand-selected by a mysterious benefactor, and they each have a very particular skillset to add to a group. I had to coach them up for an appropriate way to do introductions. As long as they keep learning and having fun, no skin off my nose!

I've been dragging through old notebooks (the paper kind, with a metal coil on one side and these weird graphite scrawlings all over them) to complete something I promised myself I would do as I had time  (almost done, Chris!     )   I stumbled across something a few minutes ago---
 
How many of you other old men remember way, way back when-- about the late 70s or so, when if you needed a module on the cheap or between getting one from the brand-name guys, you pulled it out of a magazine?  No modules that month?  Well there's that rack of Judge's Guild stuff way in the back of the store.....
 
Dude, Judge's Guild was _awesome_ way back when, especially if you were a Traveller or D&D player (or both, as a lot of us were).
 
I stumbled across my old conversion notes for the _only_ superhero module they ever produced:  Break in at Three Kilometer Island.  Not only was it the only superhero thing they ever did, it was one of the very few things they did that....  kinda sucked.  
 
Steve Perrin and a couple other guys had gotten together and worked out some conversions between Champions and V&V and SuperWorld and published them in back of a couple of V&V modules and a couple of SuperWorld modules.  They were reprinted in roughly half the gaming magazines of the day, so I guess technically I have several copies nowadays.
 
 
Anyway, I had used them to make that scenario (such as it was) Champions-compatible, and did a  _lot_ of tweaking to it to up the value of it (though it's really not much more than a scenario, even after tweaking it a bit).  I got a wild hair, and started typing it up, working the notes into the body as I went.
 
 
Then I had this crazy thought:  Hell, I heard Bledsow _died_ a few years back (cancer, was it?).  I wonder if anyone did anything with the license?  If not, then maybe I can find the current copyright holder and get permission to do this for a distributable freebie or something.  Let me do a quick Google.....
 
 
Yep.  Not only is there a current copyright holder (Bledsow the second), but the company is still producing!  (thought these days it seems to be all e-format).  And it seems that Bledsoe Jr has been running his mouth in the worst possible of ways, and that I'm pretty sure you couldn't even _give away_ a Judge's Guild property these days......
 
 
Kinda wish I'd done that Google before getting twenty pages deep into the project...
 
Don't get me wrong:  I'll still do it, just for me.  But there's nowhere near the hurry I was in when I first got the "I wonder" bug....     I just won't be able to share it with anyone.  
 
 
 
The internet really, really, _really_ sucks sometimes....
 
 
 
 
 

Secret from the other players, not the GM. We use a Google group to email one another about the game(s), and discuss characters. He doesn't want his character sheet posted, or for anything more than the bare minimum about his character to be revealed until the game begins. His rationale is that PCs should learn about one another by interacting in the game, which I understand, but it does make it harder to create a cohesive group--especially beforehand.

Z makes an _excellent_ point here, Greysword, as does Brian, right here:
 
 
 
But I feel that they both stop just a tiny bit short of what you really need to hear.  I am not saying that they are wrong, because they aren't.   I think they might be just a bit blinded by the tendency of the last couple of editions to include words like "must."
 
There is _no_ "must."  There is _nothing_ you _must_ do, period.
 
You're the GM!
 
No-- don't anyone start thinking that you know what I'm thinking.    This isn't a God Complex thing; I'm actually going somewhere (and apparently it's not "to bed."    )
 
You are the GM, which means that you are tasked with, as Z said, developing a mastery of the rules.   You are _also_ tasked with creating and bringing life to whole stinkin' _world_!  I mean, my wife was in absolute agony to push out a seven-pound baby, and you've got to drop an entire planet and seven billion adults to live on it?!   Of _course_ it's rough!
 
 
 
 
But back to the point:
 
Dude, HERO GMs are _rare_.  Seriously.  HERO _players_ aren't that common anymore, unless you're willing to make them yourself, but the GMs are _way_ more rare.
 
Players _want_ to play.  Hell, GMs want to play.  And if I read your posts right, at least two of your players are already HERO-knowledgeable, meaning that not only do they know the system, but they know how rare the GMs are.
 
Use that.
 
 
Seriously:  you said yourself that there is a _lot_ to learn, and gave KnockBack as an example.  So you know you have a lot to learn.  So do your system-skilled players.
 
 
Now I'm an old man-- I just turned 60 Friday past.  I know things aren't the same now as when I was a kid, but when _I_ went to school, they taught Calculus.
 
 
But they didn't teach it in _first grade_.
 
They taught single-digit addition in first grade.  By the end of first grade, you could add a short list of three-digit numbers.  You could even subtract one three-digit number from another.   It was pretty cool, really.  I mean, I felt damned _amazing_ by the end of first grade!
 
But there was no Calculus.
 
 
Let's take another look at what Z and Brian had to say:
 
"There are simply too many options in the game."
 
"It's about as thin as you can get, and still include all the advice and such that the book covers."
 
Both of these are completely right, but they don't include everything you need to know to really learn this system:
 
You can change that.
 
Seriously.  You can solve the "too many options in the game" thing.  You can solve the "it's as thin as you can get" thing.
 
Lose 'em.  Ditch 'em.  Throw them out.   You want to make that book even thinner?  Rip out some of that advice that the book covers.  Too many options?  Hell, there's a universal _cure_ for "too many" of _anything_, and I don't even have to tell you what it is!
 
 
Get with your group.  Tell them your dilemma.  Think of it this way:  You just posted about some unhappiness in that you don't think the group communicated enough with you or each other to make the sort of characters you were hoping to see.   It goes two ways, my friend:  You have to communicate with them about the sort of game _not just that you want_, but the sort of game with which you're _capable_ at this point.
 
Having trouble remembering knock back rules?  Lose 'em!  Just flat get rid of them!  Tell the guys honestly, though:  "Look, I have got a _lot_ I need to get under my belt, but the best way to learn Spanish is to move to Spain, so I'd like to go ahead and run a game, but I have _got_ to set some tight edges on what we are and aren't going to use from the rules, at lest until I get the basics rock solid."
 
Tell them "I have a lot of trouble keeping Knock Back straight; I'd kinda like to just not do it this time around.   Multipowers are killing me.  Can we just go ahead and agree that we are going to use the powers in the slots at either 1/2 or Full strength, at least until I get better at mathing it out on the fly?  And maybe we can drop Linked.   Also, I've got some problems remembering everyone's Complications and keeping it all straight, and I'm just not ready to deal with Succeptible _at all_.  Tell you what:  let's put another 25 points on your base and drop 25 points of complications, okay?  Your points totals don't change, but it takes a lot off of me to keep up with."
 
Or even "I'm not ready to keep up with so much mechanics.  Can we do a 300 pt game instead?"
 
 
Seriously.  You can actually _do_ that!   And I'm going to level with you: the _majority_ of players-- HERO players in particular-- are pretty cool with it!  They _want_ to play, and you're willing to run.  You're being honest with them, and presenting individual examples of your problem areas.  Even if they aren't happy, they are going to respect that.  Be _honest_:  "Okay, let's build powers with no more than two modifiers each; I don't even understand what the hell half of the things on your sheet _are_, let alone how to deal with them."
 
 
Two of two things is going to happen:  You are going to get a lot of understanding people who are willing to make at least a _few_ concessions to your problems.  There's no price for that, either-- that's just _gold_.
 
Another thing that's going to happen is you are going to get a lot of suggestions-- _GOOD_ ones, I mean; not just "well you need to read this and study that and memorize this"-- you are going to get _solid_ suggestions if you've got rules-knowledgeable players.
 
I bet if you told them up front "Guys, I keep forgetting about knock back / never remember how to figure knock back--"  I'd be willing to _bet_ that someone is going to say "how about we tell you what it is, until you get the hang of it?  We'll roll our damage and calculate our knock back, and give you the result."
 
I don't know if it will help you, but it's still a solid idea.  Hell, someone might decide to keep track of it for the bad guys, too!  "Okay, Player Two, you take eight points of BODY"  Then Player Two says "and one inch knock back" and you keep on rocking:  "Player One, you take eleven points of BODY."  and Player Two chimes in with "and no Knock Back."
 
I won't say that will happen, but I _can_ say I have seen it happen, and at more than one table.
 
You said it yourself:  There is a metric assload of system to learn.   Why the Hell would you force yourself to learn it all at once?      If you're not having fun, keep whittling away until you've got something you can enjoy.  As you get confident with that, add another thing or two when you're ready.  Nobody really likes to admit it, but that's how _most_ of us learned to play:  start with first edition at a whopping fifty-something pages, play it a couple of years, then they add a few pages to the next edition.  Hell, I wouldn't want to force myself to memorize ten text books, either!  
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I kinda feel this asks a different question than the one posed by the situation I was responding to. Making a game inviting to new players is mostly a content/presentation issue, IMO. And while presentation can go a long way towards making a complex system more easily digestible (or not, as has been the case with the last two editions of the HERO System in my view), nothing short of altering the game significantly is going to make Champions easier to play or GM. Especially to GM. There are simply too many options in the game.
 
As a GM, it isn't enough to know how the powers, maneuvers, and actions work, you have to know how they work in combination with each other, how they work in various situations, and how they might affect Complications. For example, it is really easy to forget that one of your villains has a Susceptibility to Presence Attacks and consequently doesn't cower in awe, as he should, at the superhero who lays down a decent, but not overly impressive, Presence Attack. The scene/combat could go in entirely the opposite direction because of this oversight.
 
While you could make the argument that GMing is tough no matter what game you're talking about, in my experience Champions stands above most because of the far greater power-interaction space it presents compared to most other RPGs.

Might I suggest a "session zero" where we can work out our backstory, connections, and so forth, before we put pen to paper (or fingers to Hero Designer)?  I think that in our group we all, or at least I, have a tendency to work things out with the GM informally through email, but not letting everyone else be part of it.  With a session zero we can further get buy in from the GM on how the character will fit in with the game world and the other characters. 
 
And here's something I got from @Duke Bushido: the GM can take notes during that session zero on what the players bounce off of each other, things that really seem to grab them, the things that make them go "Ooo!  What about if...."  I think it's harder to get that kind of thing when it's a bunch of players making their characters by themselves, even if they're emailing with the GM.

😲  Um.. say what?   But.. but... 🥺 ...what happened with my game, then?
 
 
 
This is basically the PCs in my campaign (on temporary hiatus as I sort things out).  Both Goodwin and sinanju are in it.  None of the characters play nice with each other.  For instance, Chris has a goody two-shoes character that wants to join a super team, sinanju plays a former assassin with a negative reputation who would like to be good but has a lot of underworld skills.  The group basically acts (and presents to the world) like a vigilante group (A-Team), but verbally, the players want to have a straight-laced super team (like the Justice League).  As for me (as GM) in this...
 
 
 
This goes back to the original impetus for this thread.  As an inexperienced/relatively new GM of Champions (or anything), I find it incredibly difficult to properly police the characters before (and during) play.  The players (Goodwin, sinanju, and others at the table) have read and understand 6E1 and 6E2, have played 5th edition (and likely 4th or earlier), and are Masters with the rules. 
 
I have Champions Complete.  I've read it a couple of times.  I still can't remember the rules for knockback (they just won't stick in my head).  The rules for character creation in 6E are incredibly complicated, and honestly, I can't tell what a power is going to do just by reading it.  I need to see it in action. 
 
At the table, I try to be open to whatever the players bring, and I try to craft a story that includes their complications and background.  Usually, this is over a couple of side adventures to the main plot to focus on each character.  For this game, I proposed the characters know each other beforehand or at least had some sort of "six degrees of separation" that could make them connect once they met.  The group decided for lone wolves that would somehow come together and work together. 🙄
 
Also as a terrible tactician, I'm always using 1/10th the strength in the villains repertoire, because I just can't understand how the powers work and what would augment another villain's action (even with the Villain books).  I'm constantly frustrated by my inability to provide (what I consider) an acceptable challenge, thus decreasing the fun the other players have.
 
Bottom line, the current mechanics are too cumbersome and the material too dense (and has not really been supported for a long time) for an inexperienced GM to run a Champions/Hero system game.  I don't own 6E1 & 6E2, and I have no time nor desire to absorb that much information. But it's the bible of this game, so my lack of willingness is a concern.  We need Champions 7E to be more like 4E in size and scope.
 
Just wanted to add, thanks for the great discussion.

Here’s one more popular option that many people suggest: Microsoft OneNote. Check out this video to see what can be done with it.

For what it’s worth, I’ve been fiddling around with Microsoft OneNote, and I’ve decided that’s what I’m going to use. It has a great notebook approach with sections and pages which can all be linked like a makeshift wiki, and can be shared with your group so everyone can modify it. Look at the video I posted above for a great tutorial and lots of great ideas. 

So, I've been online looking at flail fights on youtube.  For the most part, the flail seems to be less used to get around one's shield as to counter people using their weapons to block.  It doesn't seem to be a great weapon compared to a sword but it isn't super bad.  But in comparison with other options, I wouldn't want to use one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukvI295xDRw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWVY3EqU6Ok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haSHLtn-6tE
 
And here's a guy (and he's not the only one) that basically says that the flail isn't the best medieval weapon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox4sCJnCpzo
 
Finally, here's a historian from the Smithsonian.  Not a video but an interesting read.  He believes the flail might be symbolic or even  an experimental weapon which failed.  He does note that two handed flails did exist, but the flail as a one handed weapon probably did not.
https://www.publicmedievalist.com/curious-case-weapon-didnt-exist/

Not at all. I figured it out in minutes, and it’s designed to integrate with Slack, so it’s pretty seamless. 
 
I just looked at Obsidian Portal and another called World Anvil, and they both look like they are better versions of what I just set up. I may switch over to one of those instead, after I do a bit more research. I’ll let you know what I find.
 
The one thing Slack has going for it is that it has become a standard in the business world, so people are likely to either already have it, or may find a use for it outside of gaming if they get it.

It’s really odd timing that you ask this. I just started a Slack group three days ago, which is really a chat site, but I integrated Google Drive for file sharing, and Tettra for wiki support that everyone can modify. I’m not sure it’s the best way to do it yet, but so far so good. It’s all free, so there are no barriers to entry. 

Names like this (taken from Turakian Age, though not a critique of that setting by any means):
 
Shularahaleen
Thugoradanirion, god of strength
Sikirarthasanaila, goddess of stealth and guile
Whandurashaneshir, god of dark magic
 
UGH!!!!! Why are fantasy names virtually unpronounceable, and so polysyllabic that I have to stop and sound them out phonetically before I can continue on?! Is this inherited from Tolkein? Is it supposed to be proof of the sophistication of a culture? Hey, it takes us five minutes to say hello! It takes even longer to read an account of it in a fantasy novel! It rips me out of immersion instantly. 
 
This reminds me of the story my Mom used to tell me about the King's son named Stickystickystombonosirombohoddyboddyboscoickenonnuenoncomberombetombo. Not surprisingly, when he was in danger and everyone had to relay the message that he was drowning, they couldn't get to him in time to save him because his name was absurdly long. The King's next son was named Zip.