knasser2

Just wanted to say that whilst the model of a big ship being many smaller ships wielded together is correct in simple terms, there's a practical difficulty with it. Force and mass may be increased proportionately to produce the same acceleration, but increased Force brings its own difficulty. Namely, stress on the ship itself. A thousand fighter engines on a thousand fighters, means each fighter gets its little bit of force on its structure. But a thousand fighter engines on a large ship that merely has the mass of a thousand fighters... Well unless it's built like a line of fighters glued together and it only flies in a straight line, parts of it are going to be subjected to drastically more absolute force than would ever be the case in one of those fighters alone. Which requires greater structural strength, which requires more mass. And that increases significantly the more you expect it to be able to pull off the same manoeuvres. Zeropoint makes a good point, but there's more to it. Try to turn a star destroyer like you turn a tie fighter and it doesn't matter if the engine power and mass are in exactly the same proportions as the tie-fighter: It's going to snap in half.
 
An ant can lift 50 times its body weight. Make a 2m tall ant and it will snap its own legs trying to walk.

It's not much different than a typical CoC scenario when you think about it. If the party is facing the monster directly by the end of it, then they've done something wrong since their only real chance of success was to prevent the rampage from happening in the first place.

Hey, it could be a lot worse...it could be an "historical" scenario, and the PCs are stuck on Macragge when Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks...

This person gets genestealers!
 
 
This person gets 40K! In the 41st Millenium, lonely, steel spaceship corridors are still swabbed down by tired men with mops.
 
 
This person gets Hero!
 
 
This person gets my GM'ing style!
 
Great post. Very helpful and totally the atmosphere I'm going for. 'Stealers are the Xenomorph from Alien, for people who thought it wasn't creepy enough. Presence attack is a nice touch. I'll let it use that.

That sequence works nicely for me, massey.  Plays up the prime aspect...the horrific nature of this beastie.  
 
As a thought in this approach, toss in a straightforward Drain, targeting Ego, PRE, or both.  He can't fight back.  After the poor vic's been hosed 6 ways to Sunday, NOW you can throw in a relatively small, cumulative Mind Control and build it to sick levels.  The impact here would be the Mind Control on its own wouldn't be strong enough to do much against anyone who wasn't brain-drained.
 
This is now very nicely cinematic....BUT.  If there is to be an effective difference between this all taking several turns, and everything just happening all at once more or less (a few phases rather than turns)...there's got to be a way that this wears off, or can be reversed, at least until the whole sequence is complete.  Which really is OK.  I don't know the source material, but it sounds like it takes the vic and remains...discreetly, generally quietly.  Fine;  this gives regular opportunity to reinforce both the transform and the mind control.  The vic won't fight as long as the reinforcement's regular enough...buy Delayed Recovery (5/day) or something and you're good...and say that after a couple weeks the process has become permanent.  Sure feels like this is consistent with the critter's WH40K presentation.  It should be feasible with no major rules mangling, and feels internally consistent.

As far as the source material goes, think the movie Alien.  When the Genestealer gets you, you're as good as facehuggered.  Only instead of having a critter burst out of your chest, you just go off and settle down and have babies.  Precious little C.H.U.D.-looking babies.  And you keep them safe, because of course you do.  The rest of society just wouldn't love your little babies the same way you do.
 
You and your fellow recipients of the Genestealer's "gift" will go off and form a cult.  Something that sounds kinda weird, but not that abnormal.  "The Church of Our Wondrous Embracing Savior".  And it's kinda like the local religion, but in a quietly creepy horror movie kind of way.  And you are going to raise your offspring.  And they're going to have offspring.  And surprisingly, each generation looks more and more human, until they're almost indistinguishable (almost).  And one of these will be the new cult leader.  He'll develop powerful psionic abilities, the better to "spread the true word".  And the generation after that?  Purebred Genestealers, who can infect more people.
 
Of course what none of them know is that the cult is really just a beacon.  The growing psionic signature from the cult attracts a ravenous swarm of Starship Troopers-style space bugs.  They intend to eat the planet, every last microbe.  When the Hive Fleet approaches, the Genestealer Cult feels an irresistable urge to go out and cause chaos.  They become a doomsday cult, blowing up bridges, assassinating important people, preparing the world for the coming of the Great Devourer.

Transform is cumulative by default.  I'd go with the basic 4D6, and just require that the Genestealer sit there and keep hitting you with it.  Think of it cinematically.
 
Phase 3 -- The Genestealer moves out of the shadows towards the unsuspecting crewman.  Rolls its Stealth at 14-, rolls an 11.  The crewman rolls his Perception of 11-, gets a 9.  He thinks he hears something for a moment, then shakes his head.  "Nah."  The Genestealer gets within half-move range.
 
Phase 5 -- The Genestealer rushes forward and attacks.  The crewman makes another Perception roll.  This time he makes it.  He turns around with a panicked look on his face.  He gets his full DCV.  It's a 3.  The Genestealer (OCV 9) attempts a grab.  -1 OCV for the grab maneuver, it needs a 16 or less to hit.  It rolls a 12 and hits.  The Genestealer has a Str of 25.  The crewman has a Str of 10.  They roll dice and compare Body.  The Genestealer wins.  It slams the crewman into the bulkhead.  One massive claw grips him by the throat.  Another grasps him across the chest and pinning his left arm by his side.  The alien's third arm grabs his right wrist, applying pressure and forcing him to drop the mop he was holding just a moment before.  The fourth claw grabs his jaw and begins forcing it open.
 
Phase 8 -- The Genestealer makes a Presence attack.  It has a base of 5D6 for its 25 Pre.  The GM gives it +3D6 for attacking from surprise, another 2D6 for having an overwhelming advantage, and +1D6 more for a good "soliloquy".  The Genestealer leans in close, its slimy tongue licking the crewman's face.  It opens its mouth as wide as possible, then chomps its teeth in the air inches away from the man's eyes.  The Genestealer rolls 11D6, getting a total of 40.  This is 30 past the crewman's Pre of 10.  He is petrified, and will not struggle.  He wets his pants and cries out for the Emperor to save him.  His eyes are wide with terror.  He's incapacitated for at least the next turn.  The Genestealer maintains the grab, and starts to implant its seed.
 
The GM consults the book to see if the Presence attack counts as an "action", or if the 'stealer has to wait until phase 10 to implant.  The player and the GM argue for a while.
 
Phase 10 -- The GM tells the player to shut up.  The Genestealer begins the implantation process.  Its long tongue slithers down the throat of the crewman.  He is too scared to resist.  The Genestealer maintains its grab.
 
Fast forward one turn.
 
Phase 10 (Turn 2) -- The Genestealer player rolls 4D6 to determine how much Body is done by the Transform.  He rolls a 12.  The crewman can feel something happening inside of him.  The GM rules this is enough to snap him out of the mortal terror.  He can now struggle.  He rolls 2D6 for his attempt to break the grab.  He gets 2 Body.  The Genestealer rolls 5D6 and gets 5 Body.  The man cannot escape.
 
Phase 12 (Turn 2) -- The man lets out a muffled scream (he does have a tongue down his throat).  The Genestealer's process is not yet complete.  It needs more time.  The Genestealer attempts the Transform again.  The man attempts to break out.  He fails again.
 
Phase 6 (Turn 3) -- The man gives one last valiant effort to escape.  He tries to push his Str.  Since this is a heroic game, he gets +5 Str, +1 for every point he makes his Ego roll.  He rolls a 12.  He fails to push, and rolls another 2 Body.  He feels a shoulder muscle pull.
 
Phase 12 (Turn 3) -- The Genestealer rolls its Transform again.  The man is about to attempt another escape, readying himself for one last life-saving push.  The Genestealer rolls 4D6, getting a 13.  The Body total is now 25, more than double the crewman's 10 Body.  Suddenly, the man stops struggling.  It all makes sense now...

Cool.
 
We don't know the power level...and translating between systems makes this doubly hard.  He did say, this was something to face up against high-level characters, so it's not a 300 point monster.  
 
And, yes there is a point...to see, oh gee, this really is frightening.  There are occasional examples of glass cannons...monsters whose Risk is extremely high relative to their defenses.  In old D&D...the leprechaun.  Polymorph any object...for a 1 HD critter.  HUH?  And, IIRC, exceptional magic resistance but almost no physical.  Of course, your sword's now a long feather.  While it's not a physical Threat...as a challenge, it's quite a bit higher than one would anticipate.  Another, the cockatrice...that stoning attack.  Another lesson was, "It won't work very often" does not counterbalance "and...you're dead"  when it does work.
 
The point of all this is to say...recognize that the Transform is super incredibly powerful.  Honor that by not trying to cheese out the build.  If it is a 300 point monstrosity, it's a 300 point monstrosity...even if you can build it on 50. It's all too easy to lie to ourselves as players and GMs...but as a player, hopefully the GM's there to audit things.  The GM doesn't have that, so IMO has to be much more stringently compliant.  One aspect I'm so strongly against your slow, ongoing Transform is, you're taking a cheese approach while also hand-waving away quite a few problems, as I mentioned...and kind of patting yourself on the back for pulling it off.  Hey, ok, if you have to hand wave on one point, that can be ok...but so many aspects?  No.  Don't do that.  That's too much like the path the GM took that I'd mentioned, where he'd make something that legitimately cost 600 points, but ignore this, fudge that...and admire his own cleverness for squeezing 600 points of combat powers onto a 350 point villain. 

Actually, this is an insanely cheap power.  You just have to take your time.
 
1d6 Severe Transform, Damage over Time  +1; 32 charges, +2;  Targets defenses only apply once,+2;  one charge/day , -3; 30 active points. Tack on your limitations and you've got something in the neighbor hood of 10 real points.
 
 

This could also be done via trickery, and anyone Entangled or deeply stunned is at risk.  Yeah, I get such a person could be killed by simpler means, but still.  
 
First, while scaling a Transform for something like this is tricky...I don't see 4d6 being *close* to enough.  
 
Seocnd...why try to make the point cost sane?  This SHOULD be insanely expensive in points, given the consequences.  IMO, it's a pretty common flaw to look for price breaks because we're so focused on points.
 
Last...those Psy Lims aren't the end of it.  Is the victim aware, in any way, of these changes?  They are at the genetic level.  I think the "OMG what am I now???" hasn't been captured at all.  You're also missing the "run away from everyone that I know" that's another essential part of this.  You're also missing some MASSIVE Hunteds that would be implicit...because every other race out there, presumably, would have Kill On Sight against any Genestealer or progeny.
 
Part 1:  if this is an all or nothing to create at least 40 points of Psy Lim...that's 12d6 to me.  I get the special effect aspect that Ego Def doesn't make sense...but is this why you're not taking the Mental Transform stuff...or are you trying to cheese the cost?  Concentration throughout on the extra time?  I don't see that.  Where's the 0 End?
 
Part 2 represents a fundamental restructuring of the victim's DNA.  OK, that's a BODY Transform by my lights.  So, to start with, you need to do 2x the BODY.  You started at 4...without recognizing the doubling aspect, that might be close.  You want to make sure that it takes a VERY bad roll for the Transform not to happen.  I'd push a little higher.  Then...double it?  9 or 10d, if you want to maintain the All or Nothing.
 
Last, there's no recovery at all.  Fine.  Pay for it.  Delayed Return Rate, 5 points per 5 years *at least*....+3 1/2.  Another at least +1 to say the transform's not affected by Regen...or is it?  Or by Healing.
 
If this costs 400 points, it costs 400 points.  It doesn't matter anyway.  This is pure, unadulterated plot device.  All you need is the time required to pull this off, and the fact the vic has to be incapacitated, because those are aspects of the plot.  Nothing else has to be particularly formal...except perhaps to cover What If?  Like, what if the vic has 20 points of Power Def?  Or 2 Body per Turn regen?  But those are corner cases that you can wing as they arise.

EB 1d6, Continuous (+1), Damage Shield (Offensive; Affects Mental And Physical Attackers; +1 1/4) (16 Active Points)
 
Remember it has to be continuous/persistent first.

As I see it, if you have a limb that can grab and some STR usable with the limb, you don't NEED to pay points for a basic non-martial "Grab" maneuver.
 
Conversely if you don't have a limb or any STR, I for one don't think you can get the ability to grab even if you do buy a Martial Grab maneuver. It would be like buying a Fencer's Thrust or Parry without equipping the character with a sword.
 
I can't drive my Pontiac Grand Prix up to you and grab you, even though it has a STR score, because it has nothing to grab WITH. If some mad scientist equips my car with an Extra Limb, then it will have something to grab with and can do so.
 
But in accordance with the principal that if you pay points for something it should be useful, I can see allowing a vehicle with Martial Arts to be considered to have a "free limb."
 
Lucius Alexander
 
I'm riding a palindromedary. How does that grab you?
 

Grab is a maneuver available to any and all characters, no cost. Your vehicle should be able to do it if it has a STR score and an arm/hand.

Indie bands still hired recording studios, paid someone to master their tracks, mail out their marketing material. In fact, it was that they did all these things themselves rather than struck a deal with a recording label to handle it all for them that made them Indie.

I don't think the Indie brand will help sell it (but can't hurt). It's not what people think of as "Indie". It's not small, it's not fluffy, and it has a tendency to bite. The big thing that holds Hero back - and it's also the big thing that makes it valuable - is that it's a programming language. And the market for programming languages is programmers. Most people want a finished piece of software.
 
Maybe that's putting it too strongly. If you want to whip up a Superhero game, I guess you sort of have to take the Hero approach to make it able to cover all the different character types. But the fact remains that you're buying a box of bits, not a box of toys.
 
I presume FHC and similar are a recognition of this and an attempt to provide a pared down and more focused version that people can get into more easily. A recognition that a huge blank sheet is simply too much for some people and they'd prefer a small blank sheet they have a reasonable chance to fill. And I think that effort needs to be taken. But I don't know if it's the right approach. It's still very much a blank sheet. My attempt to solve the issue was to build a much more specific setting and rule system using Hero. I may market it one day, I'm quite proud of it. But what I did was to create specific character templates not in the way Hero supplements usually do, as suggestions of "hey - you could do something like this" but as specific "Choose one of these six races. Choose one of these twelve classes". I built D&D in Hero 6e. I provided choices rather than freedom.
 
And it worked. I had a few people telling me I was flying against the whole intent of Hero. And you know what? I totally was. I DID turn it into D&D. But you know what? It was a better version of D&D. Because Hero is a very powerful and well-thought out system. I took what I found valuable in Hero (great rules and balance) and used it to make a finished game that people could pick up and get stuck in. If they ever want to use Hero, well, the appendix has the points breakdowns, but they don't need to. I'm convinced it has the potential to be successful if I ever get it to publishable form. I think that's what Hero needs for mass-market appeal. Sell complete games made with Hero, rather than hope to make Hero more universal by exposing people to subsets of it at a time.

I don't think the Indie brand will help sell it (but can't hurt). It's not what people think of as "Indie". It's not small, it's not fluffy, and it has a tendency to bite. The big thing that holds Hero back - and it's also the big thing that makes it valuable - is that it's a programming language. And the market for programming languages is programmers. Most people want a finished piece of software.
 
Maybe that's putting it too strongly. If you want to whip up a Superhero game, I guess you sort of have to take the Hero approach to make it able to cover all the different character types. But the fact remains that you're buying a box of bits, not a box of toys.
 
I presume FHC and similar are a recognition of this and an attempt to provide a pared down and more focused version that people can get into more easily. A recognition that a huge blank sheet is simply too much for some people and they'd prefer a small blank sheet they have a reasonable chance to fill. And I think that effort needs to be taken. But I don't know if it's the right approach. It's still very much a blank sheet. My attempt to solve the issue was to build a much more specific setting and rule system using Hero. I may market it one day, I'm quite proud of it. But what I did was to create specific character templates not in the way Hero supplements usually do, as suggestions of "hey - you could do something like this" but as specific "Choose one of these six races. Choose one of these twelve classes". I built D&D in Hero 6e. I provided choices rather than freedom.
 
And it worked. I had a few people telling me I was flying against the whole intent of Hero. And you know what? I totally was. I DID turn it into D&D. But you know what? It was a better version of D&D. Because Hero is a very powerful and well-thought out system. I took what I found valuable in Hero (great rules and balance) and used it to make a finished game that people could pick up and get stuck in. If they ever want to use Hero, well, the appendix has the points breakdowns, but they don't need to. I'm convinced it has the potential to be successful if I ever get it to publishable form. I think that's what Hero needs for mass-market appeal. Sell complete games made with Hero, rather than hope to make Hero more universal by exposing people to subsets of it at a time.

Indie bands still hired recording studios, paid someone to master their tracks, mail out their marketing material. In fact, it was that they did all these things themselves rather than struck a deal with a recording label to handle it all for them that made them Indie.

Fantasy Flight produce the X-Wing and Armada games, tonnes of board games and several role-playing game lines including WH40K (three related game lines) and Star Wars. The latter has churned out at least twenty hardback books. Even if odd games are small, their ownership or marketing by big companies like FFG disqualify them. Indie was a music term (along with an advertising schtick of "Oooh, isn't the Music Industry evil... Fight it by listening to us!") meaning not owned or marketed by a larger business. So even games like Pugmire which is small and was the brainchild of a single, home author with community support, isn't really Indie because Onyx Path bought rights to market it under their label, just like EMI bought up small, promising bands to market them. Indie really means "we made it and it's ours". Not Indie means "we made it for somebody else". Whether that "somebody else" is another company or a board of directors. It's why Monte Cook is considered Indie - because even though he's established and long-term figure in the industry, he's still someone making his own product and selling it, no matter how successful. And Richard Thomas isn't really, even if he put together a Kickstarter for Pugmire and it looks like a small press game - because he partnered with an established RPG company that deals in RPGs to market and sell it.
 
Hero *is* an Indie game so far as I'm aware. It's the labour of a few people (plus a lot of supplemental help) who sold it to the public themselves.

If the game line is more or less its own company, I'd call it Indie. Owned by a larger company, I would not. Smaller companies like Cubicle 7 might edge their games into the category just about, even though technically they shouldn't. The term "Indie" feels more like a cultural affiliation than a technical category to me. A sort of "We're not the Man, man!" branding. There were lots of "Indie" bands from Seattle that were corporate as Hell. Whilst something like Pugmire might be produced by Onyx Path but somehow feels more small "labour of love" game than you'd think.

Restraint?

Your game, your choices. ? Also remember they can set and brace, use teamwork skills, buy weapon specific CSL's, get targeting computers, laser sights (or other weapon enhancers), etc.
 
A skill roll penalty alone is going to be way easy to beat if they face Wave Serpents on a regular basis. If you go that route, I would make it an opposed skill test. The first time or two you can assume the pilot / gunner is unaware of what they are trying. Later they can be more aware and have higher skills as "only the fittest" survive combat. If it turns out to not be a problem then no sweat, just let them keep trying.
 
All this assumes that they have something that can dent a Wave Serpent once they get past the force field. In that case, then maybe just the threat of being able to get past the FF will change the enemy strategy and make them drop troops further back or just bomb them from orbit.
 
- E

I don't know Eldar stories that well and there are a ton of them out there, but I have never heard of someone exploiting the timing of a wave serpents shots. If someone wanted to try it, I would probably impose a skill roll and OCV firing penalty. I assume there are countermeasures in place for this type of thing, like random cycle times, etc. So something along the lines of a System Operations roll at -6, maybe -4 if you have absolute time sense. And then OCV penalty of -12 or so, this is considerably harder than something like a head shot in my mind.
 
- E

Essentially you have a custom limitation here that completely negates the barrier.  I would decide how likely it is, probably +0 limitation for how often it is likely to happen.  You then have to decide how they might go about this and put in a limitation of "not versus attacks where opponent makes a [something] roll".

I would suggest using Telekinesis, with a Limited Range to how far you want the claw to be able to reach, and a Focus Limitation if you want it to be targetable and damageable apart from the tank.

You can buy the power Regeneration to do other things than Body with GM permission, he might let you buy it for your barrier (be somewhat expensive in real points to get it fairly quick but the "barrier only" limitation has to be worth a fair amount of limitation).  Healing could do the same thing with GM permission again.