Shoug

We are definitely close kin in this matter. My story is almost identical to yours. I seriously suggest getting a physical copy of the books. I've got 6e1 and 2 and Basic. Basic is really excellent, and after reading that a little bit, everything clicked for me. The game is actually quite elegant.

I couldn't agree more with this. I recently got physical copies of the sixth edition books and, after like 2 years of distant admiration and occasional futile glances at the PDF on my phone, the game finally clicked. At least, the general philosophy of the whole character point system and the very basics of combat started to make sense. I still haven't played nor do I have really any idea how I should actually use this system at the table. It doesn't help that I'm a relatively inexperienced GM when it comes to systems which require preparation, I've been playing Fate and FU all these years, and not very often.

Though, seeing as the core books already lack this "Missing Chapter," I think the next best option would be to release a kind of starter kit. I don't mean anything that would have parts or anything similar to Hero Basic, I mean... I'm talking about a magazine, on the thicker side. A magazine containing these micro-adventures with prebuilt characters and stuff. The magazine would contain 3, maybe 4, unique genre studies: Champions, Fantasy, Sci-Fi, and maybe something spicy like Weird West or Psionic Zombie Apocalypse. You can copy the character sheets out of the book, but the expectation would really be that you safely tear out the pages you need to use: things like character sheets, maps, and maybe some other stuff.
 
On the one hand, it can be called a kind of stand alone short tales style adventure book made for use with Hero System, but on the other hand, it can be called a collection of educational adventures best used with Hero Basic. I'd buy one the moment I found out such a thing existed. I might not even necessarily run the adventures, just read them and get a feel for what an adventure is supposed to look like, what a character is supposed to look like, what the range of Combat Values ends up looking like, what the range of SPDs is supposed to look like, etc. I would use it like a rosetta stone just to get a basic ballpark of how I am going to put together my game.

I really wish such a thing existed.

I’ve almost given up trying to explain my thoughts over the years.  It is almost as if I speak a different language.
 
I don’t understand the constant referral to the need to change the rules as they are written.  5th Ed, 6th Ed, Basic Rulebook (both rulesets), Fantasy Complete and Champions Complete.  They are all fine as written.  The rules are fine.
 
I say again.
 
THE RULES ARE FINE.
 
The problem is not the rules themselves. 
The problem is that understanding how the rules actually work in play is not straight forward.  They are easy, once they click.  For some people that is not an issue, they get it just from reading the book.  Some people get it from reading a super battle walk through.  Some people get it from a detailed description of a power build. 
But the majority don’t. 
 
The issue is not another rewrite of the rules. 
 
The issue is the need to add the missing chapter.
 
A short pre-generated micro-campaign with pre-generated PC’s, equipment, adversaries and so on.  Initially presented with NO POINT BUILD TOTALS VISIBLE.  Just the in-play stats. 
 
The idea is for the new to hero players to read through the playing rules, NOT THE BUILD RULES, and then play.
 
I’ll expand using Fantasy Complete, mostly because I can crib off of D&D and everyone will get my meaning.
Reorganize the rulebooks, not by rewriting, but by reordering.  Or at least to limited editing to make the flow work.  Basically move “Core Concepts And Game Basics” (page 7-10) and “Character Creation” (page 16-152)(not pages 153 & 154) behind “Combat” page 187. 
 
The book order would change from:
·        Table of Contents
·        Introduction
·        Core Concepts
·        Core Concepts and Game Basics
·        Character Creation
o   Results and Recognition
o   Heroic Action Points
o   Experience Points
o   Movement
·        Characters and the World
·        Combat
·        Equipment
·        Swords and Sorcery — Fantasy Roleplaying
·        Appendix 1: Playing Other Genres
·        Appendix 2: Summary & Reference Tables
·        Index
To a the new order of:
       ·        Table of Contents
·        Introduction
·        Core Concepts
·        Core Concepts and Game Basics
o   Results and Recognition
o   Heroic Action Points
o   Experience Points
o   Movement
·        Characters and the World
·        Combat
·        Micro-Campaign
·        Character Creation
·        Equipment
·        Swords and Sorcery — Fantasy Roleplaying
·        Appendix 1: Playing Other Genres
·        Appendix 2: Summary & Reference Tables
·        Appendix 3: Micro Campaign Build sheets.
·        Index
 
All of the chunking dice actual playing rules would be presented first and just before the “micro-campaign”.  While all the “how we build characters and stuff” would fallow on the heels of the “micro-campaign”. The micro-campaign would have all of the setting, creatures, equipment and pregen characters plus prebuilt advancement abilities to allow the PC’s to advance on a loose equivalent of first through third “level”.   All presented as end items with NO BUILD POINTS DISPLAYED.  An added appendix would have all that for when the new players become curious. 
 
The idea is:
·        New players buy book.
·        They read the “rules”.
·        They PLAY the micro-campaign.
·        They then read the Build Rules and Campaign Build advice.
·        They then go on the either expand the micro-campaign or build their own unique world now that they actually can see how thing work in play.
 
In my opinion this is why Hero is fading fast. It placed the cart before the horse and is too proud to admit everyone is driving cars. 
Anyway, my 2 cents.
Again......

This tactic reads like a lunatic fantasy from my perspective. It's the same fallacious in the same way as "You need at least 5 year of industry experience to get any jobs in the industry." 

The only way I can possibly play Hero at all is to learn it and GM it for my friends. It's taken me years of shallow bites into Hero System before I could even comprehend it well enough to say that I understand the basic premises of the system. I am now gearing up to play it with m friends, and I can see all the pitfalls before I even walk into them. I wish I could just tag along in some group somewhere and learn how they handle damage maximums or CVs or SPD. 

This tactic reads like a lunatic fantasy from my perspective. It's the same fallacious in the same way as "You need at least 5 year of industry experience to get any jobs in the industry." 

The only way I can possibly play Hero at all is to learn it and GM it for my friends. It's taken me years of shallow bites into Hero System before I could even comprehend it well enough to say that I understand the basic premises of the system. I am now gearing up to play it with m friends, and I can see all the pitfalls before I even walk into them. I wish I could just tag along in some group somewhere and learn how they handle damage maximums or CVs or SPD. 

This tactic reads like a lunatic fantasy from my perspective. It's the same fallacious in the same way as "You need at least 5 year of industry experience to get any jobs in the industry." 

The only way I can possibly play Hero at all is to learn it and GM it for my friends. It's taken me years of shallow bites into Hero System before I could even comprehend it well enough to say that I understand the basic premises of the system. I am now gearing up to play it with m friends, and I can see all the pitfalls before I even walk into them. I wish I could just tag along in some group somewhere and learn how they handle damage maximums or CVs or SPD. 

This is important. All you need to do is define a mechanical effect that's so solid that you really don't have to think about it during play anymore. If you spend a healthy amount of points to build the most robust and "kludgy" effect for the spell, then you can relax during play, comfortable with the knowledge that all you need to know is you can press this button and unbind things. Hell, you could think of it not as banishing the restrictive object, but banishing it's restrictive nature. Whatever portion of a thing's nature is restrictive is erased from reality. Locks become paperweights that look like locks, chains and cages become uselessly maleable and soft, ropes lose the ability to tie into knots, and Lock/Knock spells are just erased from existence completely (because all they are is pure elemental restriction, so there is no portion of their nature that can be retained).

This is important. All you need to do is define a mechanical effect that's so solid that you really don't have to think about it during play anymore. If you spend a healthy amount of points to build the most robust and "kludgy" effect for the spell, then you can relax during play, comfortable with the knowledge that all you need to know is you can press this button and unbind things. Hell, you could think of it not as banishing the restrictive object, but banishing it's restrictive nature. Whatever portion of a thing's nature is restrictive is erased from reality. Locks become paperweights that look like locks, chains and cages become uselessly maleable and soft, ropes lose the ability to tie into knots, and Lock/Knock spells are just erased from existence completely (because all they are is pure elemental restriction, so there is no portion of their nature that can be retained).

This is important. All you need to do is define a mechanical effect that's so solid that you really don't have to think about it during play anymore. If you spend a healthy amount of points to build the most robust and "kludgy" effect for the spell, then you can relax during play, comfortable with the knowledge that all you need to know is you can press this button and unbind things. Hell, you could think of it not as banishing the restrictive object, but banishing it's restrictive nature. Whatever portion of a thing's nature is restrictive is erased from reality. Locks become paperweights that look like locks, chains and cages become uselessly maleable and soft, ropes lose the ability to tie into knots, and Lock/Knock spells are just erased from existence completely (because all they are is pure elemental restriction, so there is no portion of their nature that can be retained).

I was thinking the same Power construct, but decided not to suggest it for fear of it seeming too radical or "kludgy." I should have known better -- these are Hero gamers.
 
But remember, EDM is just the mechanic. The Special Effect can look exactly as you describe it.
 
OTOH that Power construct requires a defined Defense. I would suggest that since since your character's patron goddess is of Chaos, that any barrier or restraint specifically consecrated to a god of Order, or spell drawing on the power of Order, would be immune to this unbinding spell.

Good thread.  I'd go with small AoE Transform of Things that Restrain to Things that Don't Restrain.  So cages fall apart, manacles fall off, coffins open, etc.

I never said the special effects justify any kind of mechanical handwave. Of course he will have to buy some kind of strange molecule of Linked powers in order to achieve his desired game effect. All I was saying is that the special effect is cool. It's delicious and beautiful. It's magical. If feels like something a powerful wizard from some classic fantasy would do. Not hard magic, but soft (but in the context of Hero, of course it would be "hard").

"Reinard heard footsteps coming from the dark hallway at the end of which his cell was located. His heart dropped when he saw Dohl Faendar, the wizard. 'You're time has not yet come.' he said, and Reinard's cell door fell ajar."

It's mysterious and badass and is a black box because magic (at times, depending on the setting) is a black box. "Thaumaturgy" literally translates to "Miracle Working." It's a miracle. To me, SFX doesn't mean, "What does it look like?" but "What is the concept you're trying to capture?" I think the concept here is perfectly strong enough to justify building such a unified power as "picks locks and escapes entangles."

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more with "This spell has no clear special effect." It's an incredibly elegant special effect, especially because it is magic and not superpowers. The spell isn't some kind of idiot lockpicking ghost, or merely "telekinesis with fine control so he can pick the lock without lockpick, oooooh." Those obviously do not free you from an entangle. No, the spell could be called, "Liberate." It just... liberates things. Locks unlock themselves, ropes untie themselves, chains break, the spell liberates anything which is physically confined in some sort of concrete, physical way. It can't change the intentions of captors or make them let you go, it can't magically teleport a priceless jewel out of a guarded museum, and it can't emancipate you in the eyes of the law. But if you were trapped in a steel cage welded shut, it could break the cage. If you were buried alive, it would make the soil sink around you and the casket come unnailed. This is a wicked cool spell.

Honestly, the superhero model is a good one to use as the foundation for a generic system like Hero. Supers have come to have an enormous influence on Anime, and therefore Fantasy. In superhero settings, everybody has a few powerful and unique abilities of enormous implication, unlike fantasy where everybody for the most part shares the same abilities and the story is about characters and plot surrounding those abilities and how they're concentrated. Fighters do violence, rogues have skills and backstab, wizards have magic. But Anime has bridged the gap with increasing success over the years with shows such as Naruto (where Ninjas are warrior mages with completely unique magical Jutsus), Demon Slayer (where Demon Slayers are warrior mages who use breathing techniques to empower themselves until they are strong enough to cut through boulders and use special moves mostly unique to each character), and JoJo (where Stand users are able to exercise the physical manifestations of their own fighter spirits to be warrior mages). 
 
The days of the "Warrior, Mage and, Rogue" are over, Hero system has ushered forth unto me the dawn of taking a character concept as far as you want to go mechanically with no restrictions. I wanna be a pyromancer? I don't have to look through the spell tome and find all the fire themed spells, pick all but one them because that one basically sucks, and I'd rather just have something useful like misty step or greater illusion. I want to be a battlemage? I don't have to multicast and then just be a mediocre fighter who can sling a few spells that a wizard could use since lvl 3. EDIT: In Hero, I'm able to make a barbarian who accidentally goes berserk, which turns him into a "whirling devil of burning red elemental rage" granting him fire breath and flight. 
 
It's awesome.

I think this is a great idea. Imagine the new player experience! You saw a nifty book about the size of Fate Core or something on the shelf of a game store. It's got a picture of a secret agent using X-Ray contacts lenses to see a gun through the jacket of somebody he's talking to, or of a monk meditating in his room on a spaceship (make the room look all sleek and sci fi), something along those lines. The point is, they pick up the book and take a look and it appears to be an RPG set in some kind of super intriguing genre bend. In fact, maybe the book has like 4 genres that you are expected to mix and match as you choose. Anyways, everything in these books is "Power by the Hero System." To the user, however, this is an opaque detail. All the content in the book is built in such a way that you would never need to reference 6e1/2, but at the end of the book there is a chapter briefly detailing how to use 6e1/2 to mod the game. 

Lighting Bolt would read "Attack..." (which they would know stops your turn and takes half a phase) "...Costs 4 END, Range of 45m..." (which we would know is just a consequence of the points we spent to build it, but the players may sense a pattern anyway) "... deal 3d6 Killing Damage. For 3 additional END, you may also blind and deafen your target for 6 segments." We know this is just an RKA with a Flash (built using Standard Effect, no less, for maximum simplicity to the player) linked to it. We know how it works, and they could find out how it works, but to them it's a simple spell. 

I feel like this would be the best approach. Fate kinda does this, but Fate is a weird animal, what with all the wacky "storygaming" and "narrativism" and whatnot. Hero could actually let you fight a Ninja against a Pirate against a Knight, with combat rules and stuff. It could be very popular like that.  

I think this is a great idea. Imagine the new player experience! You saw a nifty book about the size of Fate Core or something on the shelf of a game store. It's got a picture of a secret agent using X-Ray contacts lenses to see a gun through the jacket of somebody he's talking to, or of a monk meditating in his room on a spaceship (make the room look all sleek and sci fi), something along those lines. The point is, they pick up the book and take a look and it appears to be an RPG set in some kind of super intriguing genre bend. In fact, maybe the book has like 4 genres that you are expected to mix and match as you choose. Anyways, everything in these books is "Power by the Hero System." To the user, however, this is an opaque detail. All the content in the book is built in such a way that you would never need to reference 6e1/2, but at the end of the book there is a chapter briefly detailing how to use 6e1/2 to mod the game. 

Lighting Bolt would read "Attack..." (which they would know stops your turn and takes half a phase) "...Costs 4 END, Range of 45m..." (which we would know is just a consequence of the points we spent to build it, but the players may sense a pattern anyway) "... deal 3d6 Killing Damage. For 3 additional END, you may also blind and deafen your target for 6 segments." We know this is just an RKA with a Flash (built using Standard Effect, no less, for maximum simplicity to the player) linked to it. We know how it works, and they could find out how it works, but to them it's a simple spell. 

I feel like this would be the best approach. Fate kinda does this, but Fate is a weird animal, what with all the wacky "storygaming" and "narrativism" and whatnot. Hero could actually let you fight a Ninja against a Pirate against a Knight, with combat rules and stuff. It could be very popular like that.  

I think at this point it would be worth giving OP and many others in this thread a new name for their genre, "Historical Fantasy." Almost every single piece of source material that inspires my generation diverges completely away from historical precedence. In none of the video games, shows, movies, or books that I consumed growing up did anybody ever worry about a horse throwing a shoe, or having a chamber pot emptied onto their heads, or getting poisoned by heavy metals in the food and water and dying around 45 from it. These things just don't come up. We're trying to emulate the genre we acquired The Taste for when we grew up, which is largely based on video games and anime. This is what's so great about Hero. Me and my friends can build the Rage Meter from WoW, or the Assassin's Rush spell from Fable, or Mana that's limited but recharges quickly, or whatever. 

If I want to play some lowdown fantasy where my players' characters are dying every few sessions from a lucky arrow to the heart, I'll play TFT thank you.

This isn't Quite the same as what I was talking about. I don't mean fantasy has borrowed from supers through the presence of fantasy crossovers in kitchen sink superhero canon. I'm talking about airtight fantasy worldbuilding taking on the meta-structure of superhero literature (mostly through anime). In standard fantasy, the magic available to characters is some subset of a collection of spells which represent all of the magic in the setting, and it is all done by mages. Fighters and cleric/paladin style characters represent the majority of the characters who do physical combat, with more lightweight characters having practical skills and knowledge like rangers and thieves. In anime fantasy, each character represents a powerful but narrow band of the supernatural nature of the setting, and all are physical fighters, such that vanilla fighters with no magic are seen as a unique type character all on their own (deathstroke/batman (in justice league)). To me, this is the best type of setting: Fantasy, but modeled as a supers setting. I'm not interested in crossovers, I like thing like Demon Slayer, where the worldbuilding is perfectly circular, simple, harmonious, and sound.

Honestly, the superhero model is a good one to use as the foundation for a generic system like Hero. Supers have come to have an enormous influence on Anime, and therefore Fantasy. In superhero settings, everybody has a few powerful and unique abilities of enormous implication, unlike fantasy where everybody for the most part shares the same abilities and the story is about characters and plot surrounding those abilities and how they're concentrated. Fighters do violence, rogues have skills and backstab, wizards have magic. But Anime has bridged the gap with increasing success over the years with shows such as Naruto (where Ninjas are warrior mages with completely unique magical Jutsus), Demon Slayer (where Demon Slayers are warrior mages who use breathing techniques to empower themselves until they are strong enough to cut through boulders and use special moves mostly unique to each character), and JoJo (where Stand users are able to exercise the physical manifestations of their own fighter spirits to be warrior mages). 
 
The days of the "Warrior, Mage and, Rogue" are over, Hero system has ushered forth unto me the dawn of taking a character concept as far as you want to go mechanically with no restrictions. I wanna be a pyromancer? I don't have to look through the spell tome and find all the fire themed spells, pick all but one them because that one basically sucks, and I'd rather just have something useful like misty step or greater illusion. I want to be a battlemage? I don't have to multicast and then just be a mediocre fighter who can sling a few spells that a wizard could use since lvl 3. EDIT: In Hero, I'm able to make a barbarian who accidentally goes berserk, which turns him into a "whirling devil of burning red elemental rage" granting him fire breath and flight. 
 
It's awesome.

But I'm not asking what the difference between Flail and Martial Flail is, or between Strike and Martial Strike is. 
I think we can both visualize the difference between Strike and Haymaker, or Strike and Grab, or Strike and Club Weapon, or Strike and Trip. 
I'm asking what the difference between using a flail to Strike and using a flail to Flail is, because I cannot conceive of a way to use a flail in a way that renders it not-flail.  (Well, without injuring yourself.  I can imagine some movements that would deliver the haft into contact with the target, but they all leave the flail bit swinging back at you.)

I think the best way to name a character is with some combination of a 1 syllable word and a 2 syllable word. This makes things sound very "Star Wars" in the best possible way. Some recent names I've used,

Jorai Grix
Yit Efek
Ural Thahn
Ysban Lod

I find these easy to pronounce, memorable, and fun to say.

I think the best explanations for the inclusion of swords in a setting include magic. I don't mean that in a demeriting may, and I also don't accept "science magic," or rather, using a rather cursory interpretation of some very broad and disparate scientific concepts as an explanation for "The tech really did just advance all the way back around to swords."

I'm talking about mystical magic. Magic that is purposefully left vague and purposefully made to function as magic achetypically. Stuff like The Force, Psionics, and The Spice (much of Dune is drenched in mysticism). If I were to approach this subject in my own worldbuilding, my solution would stick it's tongue in its cheek and say "I know I'm magic."

I think I'd include Qi and Kung Fu, basically. Once widely known to be extremely deadly, Kung Fu could never match the speed, range, and flexibility of small arms combat, and so it slowly died out. Now that unpowered (not mechanized) armor has gotten to the point where small arms are ineffective against it, some are relearning the ancient arts of Kung Fu to gain an advantage in violent encounters. Kung Fu is combat of the Qi, and can only be defended against by Kung Fu. A sword strike charged with Qi would pass through armor, leaving it undamaged, and slice down the man inside it. If a Kung Fu user is caught without his armor, surrounded by people with guns, he would be in a bit of a pickle.

I think the best way to name a character is with some combination of a 1 syllable word and a 2 syllable word. This makes things sound very "Star Wars" in the best possible way. Some recent names I've used,

Jorai Grix
Yit Efek
Ural Thahn
Ysban Lod

I find these easy to pronounce, memorable, and fun to say.

This is now a poop thread: A thread for and about poop. 

Another use for poop could be as an alchemical reagent. Dragon dung is a terrific source of sulfur for gunpowder, but the smell is so bad that only Dwarves are capable of collecting the substance.

I think you're right. My point is that, as "Realism" is already being taken further in TTRPG than in fiction, why push more into Realism than the game already is structured for. It would be very tedious to write up complications for riding animals that make you roleplay out realistic horse handling (even if you didn't have to write up the complications and instead decided to just roleplay it out), when in almost no genres are those details relevant. My point is, it is neither relevant to the genre nor easily supported by the system. So it's not a matter of "TTRPGs just tend to be more realistic than fiction," when such compunctions don't necessarily originate from the system, and also aren't represented by source material.