Toadmaster

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here I have no problem with this except for the sidekick part, I have 5th ed, I have 5th ed revised, I have sidekick, don't make me buy them again. I have mixed thoughts on the idea of expanding side kick, part of me says it might be a good way to lure in more players but part of me also sees it as a drain on the resources that could be making more book I want. I some ways I think sidekick is too detailed, it is big enough that DOJ really has to sell it compared to GURPS Lite that SJG can just give away. Don't get me wrong Sidekick was and is a good idea, I'm just not convenced it should be a line of its own although I suppose you could support it with a line of "lite" genre books that cut out all the theory and just have some weapons,armor, critters and background (magic, who are the good guys. bad guys etc). An Ultimate Character would be good but it would be big, while I would be happy to see such a thing or even a series of books covering various aspects of them (the ultimate perk, the ultimate stat etc) In my opinion the somewhat negative aspect of disads is why I would like to see something like this, I don't find people really have a problem picking something that gives them an advantage, disads often seem to be an excersize in making something look like it causes the PC a problem without actually causing the PC a problem. Making disads be positive (even though they hinder the PC) is where I see the advantage to this. Its certainly not required, but then really none of the books are. I am actually surprised at the negative attention it has, I understand those who feel they don't need it but don't really get the I hate the idea part. In my opinion disads are one of the weakest and most misunderstood parts of the game, the comments about just padding the character for points simply reinforces this to me. Disads should be much more than just extra points.

Re: Damage: Realistic vs. Epic Here is where I think HERO excells, its flexibility, as you noticed HERO does massive damage but the heros get back up time after time, well, this is also where the basic write ups typically are as well. It is this feature that allows HERO to do genres like Supers so well. However if you start using the optional rules you can really start to change this, by using some you can increase the likelyhood of the PC's getting taken out of a fight, but not raise the mortality rate greatly, by using all you can really up the threat, by changing the writeups (not the rules simply how things are built) you can change this drastically. This same concept also allows much more granularity than many think HERO can do. For example you could write up a mace as Mace 5d6 (normal) HTH attack or Mace 1d6+1 KA the difference in lethality just went way up because although the first mace can do more damage it is normal damage which even an unarmored person can absorb a fair bit of the body (assume a decent PC with PD 4, on an typical hit (5 body) he will only take 1 body from the first mace, while the second write up will cause an average of 4-5 body and the PC's PD doesn't stop any of it). Now that 2nd Mace however pretty much looks just like a sword, so you might want to make it different, at the lowest level you could add +1 stnX to the mace so it is more likely to knock someone out, than a sword, but maybe that is still not enough, so how about Mace 1d6 KA, +1 Stn, Penetrating Now this mace does less actual damage then a sword (assuming 1d6+1 KA for a sword) but does more stun and even against a heavily armored opponent some damage will usually get through (sounds like a mace to me, they were used to bash through plate armor). Combat not deadly enough, add a damage class or two or 3 until it fits what you want. Don't get hung up on the official write ups, unlike most games while the write ups are "official" nobody really expects them to be followed exactly, they are basically given as examples (and in my opinion are written to the lowest level of lethality for Champions). HERO is made to allow tinkering, re-writing a weapon is not a house rule it is part of the campaign parameters just like making all the characters take a certain package or which "everyman" skills they get. If you want to run a very gritty game with "realistic" (ie deadly) combat you will probably want to write up the weapons differently from a cinematic the hero can get shot a dozen times before feeling the effects style game.

Re: Damage: Realistic vs. Epic I agree with you for the most part, however I do take some exception to this. "Realistic" combat is great in the right game. If you don't want players fighting their way through every problem "realistic" combat is what you want. I actually ran and played in a campaign using Phoenix Command (PC is probably the most realistic combat game ever created, I am also one of the only people that seems to have actually done this ), it was a great game however it was very different from anything I have ever played, to make it even more interesting were using it for a post apacalypse game. As a result we either talked or we hit them with everything we had from a position of advantage, we didn't start fights when the other side had the drop on us. I would not recommend the system for a game where you expect to have lots of combat but little actual death (like many movies), it would be a very poor choice to play an A-Team campaign. If you want great honking battles (as I think most gamers do), then I agree with you realistic-ish is really what most who say they want realistic combat actually want, it kind of bites when your Clint Man with No name character takes one between the eyes and dies in a gurgle of blood, instead of flipping back that poncho and shooting down 7 badguys (with his 6 shot revolver)while cool spaghetti western music plays.

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here Wow, actively boycott? I can understand not being interested, I don't play Champions so I only buy a few books from that line so I could understand passing on a book you don't want but why would you feel so strongly against the idea that you would do something more than not buy it? I could understand if it was a product that offended you like the Ultimate Racist, or the Ultimate book of Vile acts, but a book of disads? I don't see where having more material to work on disads diminishes the ability to add to the character, your comments are exactly the opposite of why I'd like to see the book, peoples "flaws" can be a huge part of their character but I don't see disads being used that way very often, I see lots of the same old thing, overconfidence, hunteds / watcheds, the occasional distinctive feature or rep, dependant NPC (usually used to advantage and should be a contact or a follower, at best as a GM plot hook).

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here Actually the reason I support the idea is eactly to avoid the situations you mention. Provide more ideas and guidance for using disads to make them more useful, interestihg and be a part of the character instead of just a way to get more points (and typically how to get more points with the least pain). Have you ever designed a character around a power? how about a skill or set of skills? a theme (fire, music, gadgets etc), I would guess yes, I've seen many. Now how about a disad? probably not, I can't think of any I've seen but in fiction and real life I can name several, not all are necessarily going to be PC's but most could be in the right circumstances. Jack Nicholson in as good as it gets? Monk? Steven Hawkings? The doctor in ER with the crutches these characters disads are a major part of their character. Can you see where a book with some detail for disads and how to use them could be more than just a way to get points?

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here This is a pretty negative comment towards the idea so I basically took it as this book will never happen because there isn't enough to make it worth doing. I can understand if you don't feel this isn't something that would sell, I disagree I think its sales would depend very much on how it was done, from some of the negative or less than constructive comments I think many misunderstand the idea I have. Personally I can't imagine how it could be anymore dull to write than some of the other books (USPS must have been very exciting to write ) that have been done or are planned (not that they are bad but some things are more interesting than others, it doesn't effect their usefulness). Personally I think the core of HERO fans would be less likely to want it than new players coming into the system, the old timers have a decent idea of how to work disads, the new players coming from systems with nothing like disads would be the ones I would target, those are the ones I've generally used the GURPS disads for. As this is at best a many, many years down the road DOJ project would you consider it for the free stuff area if those of us who like the idea put something together?

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here The Master list of limitations is the one I was looking for. I find it interesting that an ultimate energy projector or brick or skill, prebuilt powers (USPS, spacers toolkit) can fill a book but one on disads (or disads and power limitations) can't even fill a 128 pager? There is at least as much material there, phobias, diseases, mental illness, codes of behavior, injuries, reputations, social status etc plus some stuff on using and choosing disads. I guess I just feel like there is more than there is being mentioned, the website mentioned alone could fill a good chunk of a book. Oh, well I have that site again so that takes care of alot of my issues.

Re: HERO combat - somewhat abstract or entirely specific? For the most part I look at it as one roll one attack, but there has to be a certain amount of abstraction, particularly with hand to hand fighting, maybe not multiple swings but definately fienting, some dancing around the hex and such. It is harder to agree to this with missile weapons though, even assuming aimed shots are the standard, it is very slow to assume a normal can only get off 2 shots in 12 seconds and the ammo pretty much means that is what is happening. Really the big problem is probably a turn should be 6 seconds with 1/2 second phases (still slowish but not as obvious), or just ignore the time lag and have fun which is what I do.

Re: The limits of the toolkit approach this is very true, I find probably 75-90% of the things HERO "can't do" is simply people getting hung up on the official write ups, the rules in fact can do almost anything but often the writes ups are the limitation and nothing says you can't change those.

Re: The Ultimate Disadvantage, talk about it here I'm going to try to quote the comments up to this point here, hope nobody minds being quoted out of thread. If you do or if I missed a comment let me know and I'll edit.

Some discussion of this has started growing over in the Upcoming Ultimate Books thread since Steve basically said DOJ isn't interested in this book further discussion of it really doesn't seem appropriate over there, so I thought I would be proactive and start another thread (particularly since I seem to be the one doing most of the talking ). You can read the prior comments over there if interested http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40126 but lets try to keep any discussion here so we don't hijack Steve's thread.

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies Not familar with 24 either but the H&K USP Compact in .45 is in Dark Champions,for the 9mm or .40 versions you could base it on the appropriate Glocks. The AI is used by the British as the L96A1, which is also in DC. It is available in calibers other than .300 winmag, if he uses the 7.62 version you could use the stats for the M40 also in DC. I don't use the stats in the 5th ed so any stats I gave you from my game would probably not be very useful to you.

Re: Damage: Realistic vs. Epic I agree with this 100%, although there is much more to HERO the way damage works really sets it apart.

Re: New Advantage: Rate of Fire

Re: War HERO I've been reading The Great War in Africa, it would make a great setting for a WW1 based game, lots of wierd small unit actions years before their time in the civilized world. Raids on railroads, missions to carry gunboats overland to slip them into a land locked lake, attacks from rhinos, hippos, lions and killer bees, find the cruiser in the delta and direct naval fire onto it etc. Highly recommended for anyone that wants a low technology Spec ops environment. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393305643/qid=1135558820/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5119878-8806244?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 Osprey also has several books covering the various nations armies from 1914-18 that could be used for more info.

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies Revolvers cycle much faster than semi-autos, so a semi-auto revolver would actually have a slower potential maximum rate of fire not faster. The idea that revolvers have a slower rate of fire is something that game designers seem to have come up with and it has travelled from system to system. As this kind of statement generally results in someone claiming revolvers are slower look to the autocannon, the fastest firing cannons are the multi-barrel gatling style cannons and the single barrel revolving chamber style cannons. If you are suggesting that the revolver be set up as a true auto weapon that would be possible I suppose but the mass of the cylinder, barrel etc would upset the point of aim far worse than your standard full auto pistol like a Mauser M712 or Glock 18, and that is before you consider using a powerful cartridge like the .357 magnum. Full auto pistols using much less powerful cartridges have rarely been a success. Of course it is anime so physics may not apply

Re: Batman Begins: Batman If you are interested I have all the GURPS Conan stuff, I could probably copy the write ups if you would like to see how SJG did him.

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies Well I was leaving this alone since I sort of figured you were going for a cinematic thing anyway so a little fudging to give an auto revolver its gimmick seemed appropriate. As this has become more of a discussion of the real world application, I would have to agree the gun is kind of silly, I mean considering that the first auto revolver was introduced prior to WW1, it wasn't a great success and there have been no others for 60+ years (according to the link to the gun), there is probably a reason for that, its cool but not a really great idea. It has one advantage over a double action auto, if the round doesn't fire pull the trigger again, a new round will be brought in line as the cylinder is turned (bad idea if the round was a hang fire), the DA auto you would have to chamber a new round. It also has one advantage over a DA revolver that I can see, you don't get that double action trigger pull, I'm not one that feeles this is really an issue but some do. However it also defeats one of the safety issues that make revolvers a popular choice for newbies, the heavier double action trigger pull, on this gun you would have to decock it if you are done shooting and still have live rounds in the gun. I wonder if it has a safety? the Webley-Fosbery did. Gewing, I would think the design of a top break revolver would pretty much prevent it from being used for really powerful ammo, as I understand it the Portcyl on most single actions is stronger than a Swcyl and both are stronger than a top break. I'm not familiar with any top break revolvers more powerful than the old .45 S&W, the only current top breaks I can think of are the H&R revolvers, mostly .22 LR or Magnum and some in .32, they did make one in .32 Magnum but I don't recall if that ws a top break or not. (all these years and I still use Aftermath's abreviations for magazines ) Still like the auto-revolver they do look cool, and something large bore like say .45 Colt would make a handy monster hunters gun since it would be fairly easy to load special rounds in as needed (silver bullets, garlic shot, saboted mini-stakes etc)

Re: Science Familiarity Chart? Well, you're kind of re-inventing the wheel. Knowledge skills, Science Skills etc sort of work the opposite of what you describe creating. They way it is set up the more specific your skill the better information you get from a success. For example, you have 3 characters rolling to get a piece of information Character A has Biology Character B has Toxicology and Character C has neurotoxins from the rain forests of the Belgian congo all three characters successfully make their roll, Character A may discover that the patient has been poisoned with some kind of neurological toxin, Character B may discover the patient has been poisoned by a neuro toxin from an animal souce, while Character C will discover that the patient has been poisoned with a Neuro toxin from the Congo "I say, old chap" frog (so named because after touching the frogs highly poisonous skin, the victim only has enough time to say "I say, old chap" before flling into a deep coma), the use of this toxin as a weapon is unique to one tribe in the Congo, the Mabutu death frog tribe (and just happens to be a group of the Toadmasters loyal followers). Alternately these skills can be used to complement each other increasing the chance of success. So while you proposed system isn't a bad way to handle skills, it isn't needed unless you happen to dislike the way skills already work.

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies Interesting but in game terms its just another .357 Magnum. The similar Webley-Fosbery mentioned in the article was developed in the early 20th century, it also was a self-cocking revolver, nothing to make it stand out except it was the gun used to murder Marlowe's partner in The Maltese Falcon. As it used the same round as the Webley .455 used by the British it was allowed to officers who bought their own weapon, during WW1 it was found to be more vulnerable to the mud and filth of the trenches than more traditional revolvers. I don't think I would really do anything different with this gun than any other revolver, although it can not use the range of rounds that a .357 normally can (.38 Special, .38 S&W, mid range .357 rounds), although it should still be able to fire these as a single shot that must be manually cycled between shots (not a great idea but if all you have is a box of .38's at least you can still shoot back), I would also probably give it a better chance to misfire using ammo other than standard types (hollowpoints, AP and ball should be fine but plastic bullets, shot rounds etc probably won't cycle it I would guess). If you want to make it stand out in someway I could go along with Edsel's suggestions. Interesting idea in a techno-geek way, and I'm sure there are many who buy it for the unique factor, but really it takes a very solid and basic design (revolver) and alters it to add more things to go wrong. The practical side of me says its a bad idea, but I still think it is kind of a neat gun, I've always liked the Webley-Fosbery, now there is a new version.

Re: How much is too much? I think you miss the point of the books you mention. Really once you have the book of FRED all the other books are unnessessary from a must have standpoint. Each book has a value somewhere, I don't really care for the supers genre so I bought Champions but none of the other supers line (well not really true, I did get a few useful for other genres like the USPD). The Ultimate series is very good but the Ultimate Mentalist will be pretty much useless for somebody who exclusively plays a straight WW2 game. Nobody expects you to buy every book ,although some do and I'm sure DOJ wishes all of us did. If it really came down to a only buy the new books you "need", I'd probably still be using my 4th ed set since I was quite happy with it. It sounds like you expect every book to be 100% new and exciting, its just not going to happen, some books are useful but dull, really how interesting can an equipment book be, its about as exciting as the SEARS catalog, but can be pretty darn useful, particularly as a starting point. As far as repeating rules over and over I think that is done to avoid the opposite argument that DOJ is making books that require you to buy another book (as it is that is an argument I have seen once or twice), Martial Arts and Ninja HERO, compliment each other well, but are still stand alone products that can be used just fine without the other. Its a fine line between too much repetition and not enough. I have never seen an equipment, powers, or magic book for a generic game that wasn't kind of dull, they are intended to inspire, and provide examples, they can only provide a bare minimum to players who won't add to it with their own stuff.

Re: Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action Actually was going off the Webley .455, most of the .44/.45s of the early smokeless period were fairly simple, so for the slightly off the wall ones I just consider them about the same as the .455 Webley or .45 S&W, these were kind of middle performers representitive of the caliber. THe .45 Colt was actually quite a bit more powerful than the others initially but it was customarily loaded to a lower level about equal with the .45 ACP, prior to the .44 Magnum there were peole loading the .45 Colt pretty hot, it had performance similar to moderate .44 Magnum loads, using modern guns and ammunition the .45 Colt can perform right alongside the .44 Magnum. While the modern .45 ACP is a bit more powerful than the Webley .455 if you look at the older loadings of the .45 they are much closer, the .45 has more energy but the Webley has a heavier bullet, I'd give the edge to the .45 but wouldn't put the .455 to far behind, it had a very good reputation with British officers, much like the .45 has in the US. My main source is the one you list, although I have several editions and the data does vary a bit from edition to edition. I have a data base I have put together with a typical load for hundreds of rounds from many sources (where ever I can get data, if it seems reliable it goes in there). For the ones that would apply here I have .44 Webley 220 gr bullet, 700 fps, 239 ft/lbs .455 Webley 265 gr bullet, 600 fps, 220 ft/lbs .45 ACP (early) 230 gr bullet, 805 fps, 331 ft/lbs .45 ACP +P (current) 200 gr bullet, 1050 fps, 490 ft/lbs .45 Colt (reduced load) 255 gr bullet, 855 fps, 405 ft/lbs .41 Magnum (moderate load) 210 gr bullet, 1300 fps, 790 fps .44 Magnum 240 gr bullet, 1500 fps, 1200 fps It looks to me as though I don't actually have the .442 listed, I need to look into that, I know I have stats for it in at least COW if not another. If you look at the above stats you can see mild .41 Magnum is far more powerful than even a hot +P .45 ACP, yet does less damage in HERO, the .44 Magnum is 2 1/2x more powerful than the .45 ACP but does the same damage. IMO somebody had a little too much cult of the .45 influencing them when writing up 5th ed and DC stats. Because of this I have a real hard time trying to recommend stats to fit with the new official HERO stats, perhaps I was a bit to hasty but -1DC behind the .45 ACP or equal with is about the same to me. As in my earlier post, the stats I use, I actually have them (.45, .455) different but roughly equal. Your suggestion to have a -1 Rmod makes sense too, I do this for mine, if the bullet has a velocity less than 250 m/s it is -1, as they go faster they get a + to Rmod (this allows rifles to get better rmod than pistols based on more than just barrel length). I also am of the big bullet is better club, but I do realize that velocity must count for something because most people agree rifles are far superiior to pistols but rifles use small light (relative to pistols) bullets at high velocity. Anyway I hope we haven't completely confused the original poster, particularly since I think we pretty much (in a long winded round about way) agreed with the nice simple first reply. I do tend to ramble on when I get into this topic.

Re: GURPS Vehicles 2nd ed worth $10? Gurps Vehicles is pretty much the opposite approach of HERO vehicles, it is very technical, lots of formulas and calculations, it works pretty good if you want to figure out what something that doesn't exist should look like, so it actually complements HERO well since that vehicle book is designed more to build something you have a pretty solid concept of. I would say it is easily worth $10. The made a couple of add on expansion books you might check out too.

Re: Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action

Re: Dark Champions Campaigns Sounds alot like Bureau 13 from Tri-Tacs Stalking the night fantastic, that was a fun game, I always wanted to translate it into HERO but some how even though there were several of us playing in the Stalking tnf, and most were HERO players we never could make the jump to STNF HERO. Tri tac still sort of exists (well they still have a website anyway) and they have many of their products as pdfs. The Stalking the Night Fantastic stuff is here, now its listed as Bureau 13 http://members.aol.com/TRITACGAMES/Bureau13.html'>http://members.aol.com/TRITACGAMES/Bureau13.html Their other games might be of interest to DC gamers too. http://members.aol.com/TRITACGAMES/