Duplication

[GCMorris]

I'm building a duplication guy who is basically a normal bloke with maybe 100 points in skills and martial arts. I want a lot of dupes, what are some non crippling ways of increasing the number of dupes I can get with 375 points?

[Hyper-Man]

Duplication is one of the few powers I've never used in a character build before. 

 

Best general advice I can give is to look for the 'chink in armor' you can live with.

 

The first option that come to mind would be some sort of time limit (possible sfx is a personal time-fugue).

 

HM

[Surrealone]

You know how The Hulk always blacks out when he's done using Multiform (i.e. extreme Side Effects that always occur when the power ceases)?  You could do something like that when you stop using Duplication -- perhaps it's system shock to reintegrate all experiences into one being that causes it?

 

You could make Duplication cost END to activate.  You could also do things like apply Limitations to the act of creating duplicates or the act of recombining -- such as Extra Time, Concentration, and the like.  (Note that Limitations placed only on the act of creating duplicates or the act of recombining are worth only half their normal values.)

 

The -1/4 version of Feedback (where damage done to the original impacts all duplicates, but not vice-versa) would make a lot of sense, too -- and isn't something I consider crippling...

[Tom Cowan]

the 5 point to 2x the number of dupes, so 50 points is 10 levels or 1024 dupes

1,048,576 dupes is 100 cps is that still to small of number?

100 base plus 2,361,182,414,348,200,000,000

dupes for 375 cps, not bad.

[Hyper-Man]

Another option I've seen in the comics is an Absorption ability that feeds into the Duplication.

 

HM

[GCMorris]

I don't have much experience building anything other than bricks and energy wielding ppl. I'm trying to spread my wings into different things. I should point out that I'm using 4e.

[GCMorris]

Another option I've seen in the comics is an Absorption ability that feeds into the Duplication.

 

HM

That would be Multiple Man. I'm not wanting to copy him directly but it is a good example. Thank you.

[Doc Democracy]

I found duplication a real pain in play - every duplicate takes time and the player with duplicates gets more and more of the GM spotlight. It begins to feel unfair. When my friend came to me with the idea of a character called the Madding Crowd, I found another way...[http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/261-madding-crowdpdf/]

[eepjr24]

I found duplication a real pain in play - every duplicate takes time and the player with duplicates gets more and more of the GM spotlight. It begins to feel unfair. When my friend came to me with the idea of a character called the Madding Crowd, I found another way...[http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/261-madding-crowdpdf/]

You decided to just not write up the powers at all? Or is there a version for folks who actually want to see the write up?

 

- E

[Doc Democracy]

oh, you want details!? :-)

 

I do have the sheet somewhere, let me see what I can do...

[Doc Democracy]

OK, have uploaded it.  You can find it here.

[eepjr24]

OK, have uploaded it.  You can find it here.

How much body does each "double" get for the "available" limitation?

[eepjr24]

And just curious why no indirect on the HA?

[Doc Democracy]

With the HA, the idea is for all the duplicates to mob her opponents.  I guess I could have put indirect on it but it didnt seem quite right.  And the increased damage needs lots of duplicates - she aint that strong by lonesome.

 

:-)

[Doc Democracy]

How much body does each "double" get for the "available" limitation?

 

Not quite sure what you mean but in my head I reduced the effectiveness of all her powers every 10 BODY or so.  Once 50 BODY was gone, she would have no powers to use until more alternates appeared.  She only has 6 defence, none of it resistant and so that BODY disappears quite quickly and the damage reduction ensured she was not often knocked out.

 

Kind of a bloody build, the idea is that dozens of alternates die but more appear....

 

Not just super-agent, iron age super-agent...

[Christopher]

I found duplication a real pain in play - every duplicate takes time and the player with duplicates gets more and more of the GM spotlight. It begins to feel unfair. When my friend came to me with the idea of a character called the Madding Crowd, I found another way...[http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/261-madding-crowdpdf/]

That is one problem. Every doubling doubles the fraction of Playtime that player get's player a greater share of the actions.

 

The other is weakness of each Character sheets. Duplicates do not get to spend the points used by Duplication (at least usually in 6E, check that for 4E). So as natural Result they have weaker defenses, Skills and the like then the original.

Among the "5 point per 1 CP powers", duplication has these properties:

Full Control over the Duplicates.

Non-Disposeable Duplicates.

Duplicates are identical to main Character (inlcuding points on Duplication not be reuseable)

each sheet for itself is weaker

 

 

In the end it is better to simulate game effects revolving with Duplication Special, then actuall duplication with tons of Sheets to control.

A classical is using Teamwork with 1-3 Duplicates. The "multiple Attacker" bonus can add up quickly, and then there is the Bonus for Stunning the target.

But past 2-4 total Characters, it becomes plain unfeasible.

If you want to use up a lot of points, consider Altered Duplicate. At least that way the Duplicates can have unique abilities.

 

Naruto is quite ingenious when it comes to using his Shadowclones in unique ways, and most of them could not be modelled at all using Duplicate (the Power) at all:

He made a rope ladder of clones (Stretching).

He once used the clones to prevent being pushed back against incredible (adding STR to simulate "having Clones add thier STR to resist being moved").*

Another time he let the Clones throw him (Leaping) to get into melee range fast enough*

Ninja's often use Triggered powers to blindside thier enemies or force them into one defense action (i.e. block vs melee) that they can then abuse (ranged or AoE attack). Or set them up to trigger when the enemy attacks, to blinside them when they can not dodge. Like having transformed a lot of Clones into Debris, then springing that on his enemies.* Howerver this might be hard to pull off in hero, due to the Action Economy.

It is part of his "Special Effect" for using his signature attack (the Rasengan) most of the Series. He simply lacks the speed to do it without those extra Hands.

It is even part of his special effect for training (clones transmit Experience to the original, allowing him to speed up his training).

The original use was "for scouting in dangerous territory", so a form of very Clairsentience with Material Manifestation/inobvious power effects.

Unable to Enter Sagemode without standing still/unable to have a helper merged to your Body? Shadowclones that gather the power, then Despawn to hand it over!**

There is also the "Mirror Image" trick, where the enemy is not sure wich target to attack (clones just dissipate after "one solid hit", most of the time).

*these were even in the same battle sequence, the end of his fight against Pain.

 

**Oddly that always worked. He kind of just change the Limitation to a "Extra Time, can act while doing it" variant down from Concentration.

 

Naruto Combats and Fillers are a Treasure Trove of "Duplication special effect abilities" that can not be modelled with Duplication at all.

[whitekeys]

If you can dupe good enough, you might be able to get it for free.

[GCMorris]

If you can dupe good enough, you might be able to get it for free.

Enlighten me.

[Doc Democracy]

Enlighten me.

A play on words, dupe the GM rather than dupe the character...

[Surrealone]

the 5 point to 2x the number of dupes, so 50 points is 10 levels or 1024 dupes

1,048,576 dupes is 100 cps is that still to small of number?

100 base plus 2,361,182,414,348,200,000,000

dupes for 375 cps, not bad.

The trouble with 2,361,182,414,348,200,000,000 dupes is that each normally takes a half phase to create. That's 1,180,591,207,174,100,000,000 phases, which on a SPD 4 character equates to 295,147,801,793,525,000,000 turns.  Doing math and not accounting for leap year, a character who can create this many duplicates had better have 11 points of Life Support (5pts - Longevity: Does Not Age, 3pts - Does Not Eat, 3pts - Does Not Sleep) because it will take 467,953,769,967 CENTURIES of doing nothing but creating duplicates to get out all duplicates.  *snicker*

 

​Even with with Rapid Duplication advantage decreasing the duplicate total and doubling the speed, it'd still take longer than anyone cares to spend on it.

 

 

That is one problem. Every doubling doubles the fraction of Playtime that player get's player a greater share of the actions.

 

The other is weakness of each Character sheets. Duplicates do not get to spend the points used by Duplication (at least usually in 6E, check that for 4E). So as natural Result they have weaker defenses, Skills and the like then the original.

Among the "5 point per 1 CP powers", duplication has these properties:

Full Control over the Duplicates.

Non-Disposeable Duplicates.

Duplicates are identical to main Character (inlcuding points on Duplication not be reuseable)

each sheet for itself is weaker

Both of these problems are largely offset if you tend to only allow duplication on lower-speed characters.

 

i.e. A character with SPD 2 who can create three duplicates has exactly the same number of usable phases (in aggregate) as a SPD 6 character ... and instead of spending CP in SPD s/he spent them in Duplication -- and should have pretty much the same defenses available as the 6 SPD character.  Thus, the 'unfairness' people above spoke of isn't there when SPD is used to help balance Duplication in a campaign.

 

Note:

Do, however, consider the fact that the original duplicating SPD 2 character will spend 3 half-phases of his/her actions creating the three duplicates (unless the Rapid Duplication advantage was used), so when weighing combat efficacy it would be reasonable/fair to compare to a SPD 5 (instead of SPD 6) character in terms of usable actions in the first 12 segments of combat.

 

 

In the end it is better to simulate game effects revolving with Duplication Special, then actuall duplication with tons of Sheets to control.

A classical is using Teamwork with 1-3 Duplicates. The "multiple Attacker" bonus can add up quickly, and then there is the Bonus for Stunning the target.

But past 2-4 total Characters, it becomes plain unfeasible.

If you want to use up a lot of points, consider Altered Duplicate. At least that way the Duplicates can have unique abilities.

I think actual Duplication has its place (your teamwork example is a good one), but I agree that beyond 1-4 Duplicates it can become a logistical issue for the players/GM in combat.  That said, it's not a problem outside of combat -- and I do not feel powers within the active point limits of a campaign should be unnecessarily restricted just because of potential combat applications.  After all, a strong GM can handle such issues when they come up (or creatively preclude them from coming up) -- while a weak GM will either fail to do so or seek to avoid the issue, entirely.

 

I also agree that duplication as a special effect (using your Naruto examples) definitely has its place on character sheets where many duplicates can be created.

[Duke Bushido]

The first option that come to mind would be some sort of time limit (possible sfx is a personal time-fugue).

 

HM

I'm not sure what you mean here, but if it's that your duplicates are "you" from other points in time, I _really_ like it (except I couldn't like it because I'm all out for the day. HA!)

 

And it opens up a whole new wave of paranoia if one of them gets killed or maimed, doesn't it?

 

Or that crazy fear that this is the moment you will be whisked into some battle in the future then popped back here, beaten and bruised...

 

I like it! I really, _really_ like it!

 

 

(Unless that's not at all what you meant, in which case I'm just an idiot who still likes this idea. )

[Hyper-Man]

That's exactly what I meant.  I got the idea from the TimeWars series of novels from the 80's. 

 

HM

[Surrealone]

In 5ER in the left margin's power example of Duplication on page 152, there is this within the build for Astral Form:

​Both Characters Die If They Do Not Recombine Within 24 Hours (-1/2)

 

​As for fear of death/maiming, when a Duplicate dies, the character points spent on it are lost forever and the character loses a part of him/herself -- so that fear should already exist. (Example: If a character has the ability to create exactly one duplicate and that duplicate dies, the character can create no duplicates -- but still has the power and simply can't do anything with it until the player spends some points to double the number of duplicates from 1 to 2 (assuming the GM permits it -- which most would after allowing for cinematic effect)  ... in which case instead of being able to create 2 duplicates s/he'll still be limited to only 1 -- since the other one died.)

[Duke Bushido]

Ah; I see.

 

I suppose it's true: even good ideas appear more than once. Still, it's a _great_ idea!

 

Imagine being the "core" character: you've been on more cases than you can call to mind, if they weren't your first. That one you remember. The others.... they just sort of blend together anymore. First time out or the one last week; the others might not even have happened. You and your team, you've done a lot of good, and been in a lot of scrapes.

 

This case, it feels like so many of the others. You've come to know it almost like it was a part of your body. That tugging tension in your neck muscles. It's time for another scrap. Sure enough, you hear the doors creak open behind you and the soles of shoes scuffling into place behind you. You don't even look back. You don't even call your team; they'll understand why you're a bit late. You just reach out with your mind, opening your senses, feeling that flow backward and forward, seeing a billion other seconds of you life. Some parts you've lived; some you haven't. Those are the weird ones. Seems like they're just a little bit different every time you feel forward.

 

You used to try to pick your moments, when you weren't doing other things our around other people. Not any more, though. Now it's just random-- whichever bits of you feel the freshest, the strongest. Those are the ones you gently tag, then yank back like setting a hook in a prize bass. Snatched back, they begin to spring up all around you, the air and the light itself twisting slightly to make room for their sudden presence.

 

Now you turn. You turn, and you can't help that twisted smirk as you grind your teeth into a sardonic smile, knowing you're surrounded by the best backup you've ever had. After all, who can you trust more than an army of you? You step forward and down into that familiar fighting stance and in the corners of your vision you can see all the yous doing the same, taking their cue from you. Why worry about them? Each scrap you've ever been in is somewhere in their memory. Every trick you've ever learned, and even a few you don't know for yourself yet. The smirk melts into a proper smile. "I hope you fellas aren't disappointed. I _am_ the guys you're looking for, right?" You flex your hands a bit, limbering up for the pounding you hope to deliver.

 

Someone steps forward from the shadows around the doorway. Another figure moves from the hall and stands silhouetted in the door frame. "We are not interested too terribly much in you, I'm afraid."

 

"Oh, you should be. Though it doesn't matter too much. You're gonna find this to be far more interestin' than anything you've been through before; I promise." Just to make a point, you pull a few more of you from your timeline. It's almost crowded here in the alley. It didn't sound like perhaps six men coming through that door, but there's almost two dozen of you.

 

"No; I don't think so" says Doorframe, that proper and clipped accent making him sound almost bored. European? Where? "You see, these men are only interested in what I tell them that they should be. And I.... Well I am only interested in the money. In this case, the money I am getting to distract you."

 

Then you hear the screaming. You can feel it-- two of you, gone. Knives-- swords maybe, right through the spines. The screams.... even they pain they're in can't be as bad as that unholy scream. Most of you whip around to find the attacker, but find only the flash and thump of a teleport signature and most of you can't turn back fast enough to avoid the gunfire tearing through your light armor.

 

You're screwed. You're screwed, and you know it, and it takes way, way too long for you to get your head back on and more of you fall gasping for air and choking on your own blood and the only thing you know how to do is to pull more and more of you into this slaughter as you run blindly forward, lunging for the doorway and chasing the shadow in the door, trying to out distance his shooters in the alley---

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're clear now. You've lost them, even captured the leader, but you really can't say how you did it. Maybe it was that adrenaline frenzy of watching yourself die over and over and over and watching some of you disappear for no reason. But you got him, and you sent as many of you back to when you belong as you could still feel. Your teammates have taken over the case and told you to rest and get yourself together. You can't, though. You can't do it, because tonight you watched yourself die. Not once or twice and maybe not just a dozen times.

 

You've learned a lot of things since you decided to put on the mask and fight the good fight, but tonight-- tonight you learned just exactly how and where you're going to die, and you didn't see a whole lot of other yous that looked much older than you are right now....

 

 

 

Sorry.

 

I just couldn't not do that.

 

 

I really LOVE that idea!

[Duke Bushido]

​As for fear of death/maiming, when a Duplicate dies, the character points spent on it are lost forever and the character loses a part of him/herself -- so that fear should already exist.

 

Sure; there's a fear. But it's a Player fear more than a Character fear:

 

Oh noes! I will have spent some points for which I no longer get good value!

 

Sure; there's a character side:

 

I feel like there's a part of me that I've lost forever. I hope that perhaps, someday, I may be able to repair that part of me that's missing-- etc, etc, etc, on and on and on.

 

But as written, the lost guy is _duplicate_. A copy. Perhaps even closer than an identical twin; perhaps even closer than a siamese twin. But a different person.

 

 

The "I pull copies of myself from other points in my life" build, combined with a dead duplicate---

 

that's some scary stuff right there.

 

At least, as I see it. Short version: A copy of me is not "me." It's a copy. _Actual_ me has more intrinsic value to me.

 

 

 

since the other one died.)

 

precisely my point: the "other one" died.

 

With the "pulling myself from other points in time" concept-- _I_ died. There's just more fear there.