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Set value for increased characteristics

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Just wondering, would buying characteristics as a power, not with a focus, but with something like costs END to activate/maintian, rather than using Aid or Boost and rolling for the result work?

 

Mainly asking because another player had a power frame work with the x2 END limitation, and figured that, since it was a spell that had a more structured casting as opposed to being random, it would make sense for it to have the same effect each time.

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Just wondering, would buying characteristics as a power, not with a focus, but with something like costs END to activate/maintian, rather than using Aid or Boost and rolling for the result work?

 

Mainly asking because another player had a power frame work with the x2 END limitation, and figured that, since it was a spell that had a more structured casting as opposed to being random, it would make sense for it to have the same effect each time.

Yes, you can buy a Characteristic as Power, but I will point out that you can also buy Aid with Standard Effect to make it predictable.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And you can always predict a palindromedary tagline in a Lucius Alexander post.

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Yes, many spells increase a characteristic and could easily cost end to cast.

 

It happens in other genres too. Taipan, an Aussie snake themed villain has extra speed which costs him end to bring him up to 12 speed when in a tight spot.

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The long answer is it's complicated.

 

If this is part of a framework then a Self Only aid approach might be easier as it doesn't lock up the Framework Reserve/Pool.

 

HM

This point probably bears repeating. If the player wants to cast the spell and then enjoy the bonus Characteristics while going on to cast OTHER spells, then Aid may be the way to accomplish that.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys Aid with a Side Effect that turns it yellow and sour.

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Limited characteristics have been in play since early editions. "Extra Push: +20 STR x8 END" and so forth.

 

Aid with fixed effect, Only on Self and matching limitations will also work. 

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Otherwise once the points move onto something else the characteristic is gone. Of course if you have a large enough reserve you could have several 'spells' active at once.

 

In 6E one could use the Time Limit modifier to get around problems with such a spell being in a Reserve (such as a Multipower or VPP).   For example:

 

Wisdom of the Gods Spell:  +20 INT, Incantations (at activation; -1/4), Requires a Magic Skill Roll (-1/2), Time Limit (1 hour; -3/4).  Active cost: 20, Real cost: 8

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?

I think Time Limit denotes how long it takes to cast, not how long it lasts.

 

Even if that is wrong it still shouldn't turn it into an instant 'fire and forget' ability.

 

HM

 

See 6E1:346.  Here's the first example used:

 

 

 

Xeldruthak creates a spell that makes his hand grow demonic claws from the tips of the fingers. He defines this as an HKA 1d6 with Time Limit (1 Minute). After he casts the spell (which requires a Full Phase, Gestures, Incantations, and a successful Magic roll), for the next minute he can use his HKA in any Phase without having to go through the preparations all over again. He pays END when he casts the spell, and any Phase when he uses the HKA. On the Phases when he doesn’t use the claws, other people can still perceive them, but he doesn’t pay END for them.

 

As to having such a spell in a power framework:

 

 

Similarly, if a Time Limit power is bought as a Multipower or VPP slot and the character switches the Framework to a different slot, the Time Limit power doesn’t turn off; it continues to function until the defined duration ends.

 

Since Characteristics are generally Persistent, the Time Limit would be a Limitation rather than an Advantage.

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Note that in the case of non-Persistent powers, (such as the Claws spell) Time Limit is an Advantage. It's only in the case of Persistent powers (like characteristics, based on the OP) that Time Limit is a Limitation.

 

I believe the thinking behind a Persistent power's Time Limit being a Limitation is that it stops it from being a nigh-permanent feature, as any Persistent power would otherwise be.  (Not every power has to be in a Framework, after all.)

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Yes, many spells increase a characteristic and could easily cost end to cast.

 

It happens in other genres too. Taipan, an Aussie snake themed villain has extra speed which costs him end to bring him up to 12 speed when in a tight spot.

 

Taipan always has a 12 Speed. What you're referring to is extra DCV that costs End.

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A limitation that isn't limiting isnt a limitation. That claw spell time limit is an advantage freeing up his points to cast other spells.

 

I think you may misunderstand. It's the timer on using the power again that's still in play; if they swap back to that power again it doesn't renew the Time Limit. That's fixed until the conditions to reset it occur.

  1. Activate the Claw, pay the activation END, Time Limit is now in play.
  2. Change the VPP to some other power for a bit.
  3. Change it back to Claw. Once the Time Limit set in step 1 expires, power ceases.

One point I'm unsure of is if the activation cost END needs to be paid a second time. I would say yes, but happy to hear other opinions. A lot may depend on how the Multipower or VPP is set up. For example, a multipower with an overall Activation END probably doesn't need a new END expenditure every time you change the slots.

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I think I definitely misunderstand :- ) I'm away from my rulebook, so possibly missing something obvious here.

 

So, without the "Time Limit" limitation, if I activate the Claw! then switch the VPP to another power I lose the Claw! - correct?

But with this "limitation" I can have the Claw! AND another power?

 

I really don't see how Time Limit can be a limitation except (as you say) where initiating the power requires a lot of hassle (Extra Time, END etc) and where without the Time Limit this would just be a constant ongoing power.

 

But then, the idea of Constant or Persistent powers that take loads of limitations on initiation, then remain on indefinitely is problematic in itself!

As a GM would you be happy if a character had a bunch of extra characteristics and constant powers with "Extra Time (1 hour, only to initiate) -3/4, Gestures and Incantations (only to initiate)-1/4"

What if the character only had to cast the ritual once a year, say?

 

In this case I can see Time Limit reducing the abuse potential, but potentially making things worse - if I put "Time Limit 1 day" on all the powers in my VPP what is to stop me having multiple constant powers running simultaneously?

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I think I definitely misunderstand :- ) I'm away from my rulebook, so possibly missing something obvious here.

 

So, without the "Time Limit" limitation, if I activate the Claw! then switch the VPP to another power I lose the Claw! - correct?

But with this "limitation" I can have the Claw! AND another power?

 

 

Not at all. If the Claw has been swapped out for another power, you don't have it active and can't use it for that reason.

 

But once the timer runs out you are no longer able to swap back to Claw until the conditions required to reset the timer occur. The timer gives you a fixed time during which the power is able to be used. Doing something in addition to prevent its use adds to that.

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Not at all. If the Claw has been swapped out for another power, you don't have it active and can't use it for that reason.

 

But once the timer runs out you are no longer able to swap back to Claw until the conditions required to reset the timer occur. The timer gives you a fixed time during which the power is able to be used. Doing something in addition to prevent its use adds to that.

 

If I understand you correctly, in other words, what you are saying is that once you activate the timer, the timer is running even if you don't have the power anymore.  When the timer completes, whether you have the power on or not, you no longer have the power until the condition which resets the timer is activated. 

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If I understand you correctly, in other words, what you are saying is that once you activate the timer, the timer is running even if you don't have the power anymore.  When the timer completes, whether you have the power on or not, you no longer have the power until the condition which resets the timer is activated. 

 

That's my understanding, yes.

 

In essense, you're using the same principle as used for Charges. Just changing power allocations doesn't renew the charges of a particular power bought through the power framework.

 

In practical terms I'd avoid combining Time Limit with VPPs, except as an overall limit on all powers bought with it. ("Once I rub my magic smartphone I wield THE POWER COSMIC for the next hour! But I must take care, for it can only be invoked once per week!") 

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Time Limit persistent powers are another one of those 'is this really a disadvantage?' areas for me unless I'm seriously misunderstanding how they're used.

 

Combat Reflexes 1:  +10 DEX (20 Active Points); Time Limit (1 Minute; -2). Real Cost: 7

 

Combat Reflexes 2:  Aid  Dex 7d6 (standard effect: 21 points) Self-Only (-1): Real cost *21*

 

Both of these will give you +10 dex.  The first will last 1 minute (longer than a fight, for certain).  It takes a 0 phase action to use.

 

The second will drop 5 AP every turn and so will only be +10 dex the first turn it's activated (and then +8, +6, +4, +2, and gone at 48 seconds).  Alternatively it can be bought as a Boost instead for 4 End per phase to keep the +10 as long as desired. Either way it takes an attack action to use.

 

Edit: Ah, forgot that the aid with standard effect could actually be used a second time if it *wasn't* bought as a Boost for a hearty +20 dex instead.  Which is Apples to Oranges.  If you're willing to spend two turns instead to get that +10 dex you can buy a 3d6+1 aid (standard effect 10) for 10 RC with self only.  That's much closer in cost but but is still more expensive and takes two attack actions to ramp up and runs into the other problems I mentioned.

 

 

The first doesn't have any charge restrictions so if I'm not mistaken when it turns off all a character would need to do is spend a 0 phase action to turn it back on. Dangerous potentially for life support but less so for something like dexterity or con.

 

It is superior in every single way and could even have 'usable on others' applied for a lot cheaper than the cost of removing that 'self only' limit on the aid - blocked ONLY by the guidelines of Usable on Others that state if there's already a way to simulate an effect.

 

 

(I used dex instead of a fairly common genre example... armor/resistant protection... because of the interaction on adjustment powers with defensive attributes)

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Time Limit persistent powers are another one of those 'is this really a disadvantage?' areas for me unless I'm seriously misunderstanding how they're used.

 

Combat Reflexes 1:  +10 DEX (20 Active Points); Time Limit (1 Minute; -2). Real Cost: 7

 

Combat Reflexes 2:  Aid  Dex 7d6 (standard effect: 21 points) Self-Only (-1): Real cost *21*

 

 

Okay, the main problem here is that Time Limit doesn't define how long before it can be used again, which is why it's best used in conjunction with other modifiers. As written, you can just use the power again at the end of the minute.

 

It's worth pointing out that Time Limit isn't much of a culprit here since you could also buy a simple +10 DEX for 20 points and slap on any number of limitations that limit how long it will last; Charges, Nonpersistant, Costs Endurance and so forth. These ALSO come in cheaper than Aid (Self Only).

 

On the other hand, if you make the Aid regular instead of standard effect, you can use it multiple times and boost up to double the Standard Effect value in a couple of uses.

 

Using Standard Effect on cumulative effect powers should probably be a limitation, to be honest. Unless you allow two uses to exactly reach the maximum, which seems fair.

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