Galactic Champions

[loraxxx]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

I was thinking of Invisible Kid, Shrinking Violet, and Princess Projectra in particular. These individuals were good in a fight not so much because of their powers themselves as because of their creative use of them, and whatever equipment they had with them (usually provided by Brainiac 5, another easily-underestimated character).

 

no-- if you want pure, unadulterated POWER then you're talking about the LEGION OF SUPER-PETS!!!

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Agent X

Do you read comic books?

 

Yes, moderately.

 

I don't like to see cake-walks against modern military hardware. I know they're something of a staple of comic books, but IMO they reflect a basic lack of understanding on the part of the writers and artists as to just how powerful some of that hardware is.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Storn

Of course, my tactic for Vector (600 pts) would be to entice the tank into firing...then missile deflect and reflect the shell back... which he can do with great skill. 120mm HEAP attack is nothing to sneer at.

 

A) A HEAP or HEAT round is just going to go off if you try to deflect it.

 

HEAP and HEAT rounds are largely ineffective against the Abrams and similar tanks. That's why the main ammunition type fired tank-vs-tank is APFSDS. It's basically the world's deadliest lawn-dart, made of tungsten or depleted uranium (very dense stuff) and relying on raw kinetic energy to penetrate the armor of enemy tanks.

[Kristopher]

IMO, Dr. D should get his butt trounced if he tries to take on the kind of mile-long interstellar warships in question here. He's one guy. In a suit of power armor.

[Twilight]

Kristopher, alright already! We get your point, you like to play in a world where supers can get their asses kicked by the military WE GET THE DANG POINT!

 

Now could we please all go back to the original point of the thread, namely what you would like to see in the upcoming Galactic Champions book?

[Kristopher]

Geez, I just didn't get a chance to respond for a couple of days, and thought I should follow up on the responses to my earlier posts.

 

To honor your request, what I want to see in Galactic Champions is at least some restraint on the raw dice numbers.

[Twilight]

Sorry, you're right I overreacted.

 

My bad.

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Geez, I just didn't get a chance to respond for a couple of days, and thought I should follow up on the responses to my earlier posts.

 

To honor your request, what I want to see in Galactic Champions is at least some restraint on the raw dice numbers.

 

Well, I think the baseline PCs are assumed to be 600 points, or just shy of the cosmic level. So that would put them at around 16-24 dice(120 AP cap).

 

I think that's fairly restrained.

 

Now, there's a few DBZ characters that can vaporize planets--that's a few thousand active points!

[Ghost who Walks]

When supers attack vehicles/spaceships in the comics, the important thing is not that they destroy the ships, its that they try to. Its that whole defend the Earth/civilization/humanity/NYC/Aunt May thing.

 

As for Galactic Champions: Something that will be consistant with the space stuff that HERO (5th edition) has already published.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

When supers attack vehicles/spaceships in the comics, the important thing is not that they destroy the ships, its that they try to. Its that whole defend the Earth/civilization/humanity/NYC/Aunt May thing.

 

As for Galactic Champions: Something that will be consistant with the space stuff that HERO (5th edition) has already published.

I don't know if I'm playing a the last son of a dead planet with dark hair, a cape, superhuman strength and durability, Extra Ray Vision, and Flight - I might just want to be able to tear up a battleship.

[Storn]

A) A HEAP or HEAT round is just going to go off if you try to deflect it.

 

Not that this is all that important, but the sfx of Vector's Reflect (not deflect) is to gently guide ala Akido, the force of the incoming missile, around him, using the force to return it to sender. Hey! Its Supers... it doesn't have to make perfect sense, just internal logical sense. Its not like I'm putting a force wall up in front of the damn thing. Although, I can do that too if I wanna. Which proved very effective vs. pursuing Apache helicopters one adventure... amazing how bad they fly without a couple of rotary blades! .

 

The vulnerability of the M1 to Supers is that it can rarely traverse its cannon into position to fire upon a super who is close. And most supers can close quickly. So, yeah, getting hit by 120 mm shell is going to really hurt Vector (won't kill him though, that is how tough the ol' boy is)... but the tough part is hitting, especially when I can fly above the the cannon's arc.

 

Now, Battle Crusiers with laser gatlings, ebeams and micro missiles and whatever evil weapons systems our feverish imaginations can come up with, might have a better chance of targeting supers, especially in the "RDU" model. And the typical sci-fi military starship seems to have lots of weapon system redundancy, overlapping arcs of fire.

 

I think in a galaxy where supers (villians and heroes) are whacking away at ships... the ol' Damage Shield is gonna come in real useful. "Electrostat the hull Ensign! Galaxy Girl is going to have a new hairstyle" "Yes sir, Cap'n."

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Yes, moderately.

 

I don't like to see cake-walks against modern military hardware. I know they're something of a staple of comic books, but IMO they reflect a basic lack of understanding on the part of the writers and artists as to just how powerful some of that hardware is.

 

Not to belabor this point too much, just want to try to split the difference. Think of a character's STR as the amount of weight they can lift to their assumed height of about 2 meters. That means the potential energy of that STR is "mgh", where h= 2 meters, g= roughly 10m/sec/sec, and m is the lift amount in kg. The result will be an amount in joules. The amount of energy the character can put into a punch will be a percentage of this. Let's assume between 10 and 80 percent(for a skilled martial artist).

 

For a tank round, the kinetic energy of the round is given by the equation "E(k)= 1/2 mv^2", where m is the mass in kg of the projectile and v is its velocity in m/sec. For a 120mm tank round, assume a mass of about 30 kg, and a velocity of about 1000m/sec(about 2160 MPH). That gives you a result in joules. About 15 million joules of energy.

 

For a superhero to punch with as much energy as a tank round, they have to have at least 20 million joules in STR potential energy, and possibly as much as 150 million. Dividing through by 20(for g times h), we get a lifting mass requirement between 1 million and 15 million kg, or between 1000 and 15000 tons.

 

So, roughly speaking, a character with a STR of 80 should be capable of denting or even penetrating tank armor with their blows, and one with 100 STR or more should be able to tear through them pretty quickly. At 150 STR(potential energy of 500 billion joules), apply the confetti rule if Mon-El decides to haymaker the Abrams:D

[Ghost who Walks]

We seem to have lost Find Weakness with 5th edition. (can't seem to find it)

 

It would be so easy to have every space capable dude/dudette to buy:

 

Find Weakness, only vs. Alien spacecraft <11

 

As to why they guys in comics trash military hardware. Could it be because the comic is about the guy trashing the tank, and not about the tank itself?

 

In campaign, I have no problem having military stuff shoot up guys with powers. Just remember the following:

1) Tanks are relatively slow. My car is faster than they are. (0 point vehicle after disadvantages)

2) Helicoptors are not nearly as heavily armored as they are in movies

3) Jets can be take out by bird strikes

4) Any military deployment takes a couple of days to get ready

5) The regular army cannot be deployed inside the USA, without a special dispensation

6) The military already has a job. It occupies a lot of their time.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

We seem to have lost Find Weakness with 5th edition. (can't seem to find it)

 

 

It's now grouped with Powers.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

5) The regular army cannot be deployed inside the USA, without a special dispensation

I think in a world with Supers we'd see the National Guard activated more. Or it would just be Primus.

 

Other than, I'll go along with your points.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by megaplayboy

Not to belabor this point too much, just want to try to split the difference. Think of a character's STR as the amount of weight they can lift to their assumed height of about 2 meters. That means the potential energy of that STR is "mgh", where h= 2 meters, g= roughly 10m/sec/sec, and m is the lift amount in kg. The result will be an amount in joules. The amount of energy the character can put into a punch will be a percentage of this. Let's assume between 10 and 80 percent(for a skilled martial artist).

 

For a tank round, the kinetic energy of the round is given by the equation "E(k)= 1/2 mv^2", where m is the mass in kg of the projectile and v is its velocity in m/sec. For a 120mm tank round, assume a mass of about 30 kg, and a velocity of about 1000m/sec(about 2160 MPH). That gives you a result in joules. About 15 million joules of energy.

 

For a superhero to punch with as much energy as a tank round, they have to have at least 20 million joules in STR potential energy, and possibly as much as 150 million. Dividing through by 20(for g times h), we get a lifting mass requirement between 1 million and 15 million kg, or between 1000 and 15000 tons.

 

So, roughly speaking, a character with a STR of 80 should be capable of denting or even penetrating tank armor with their blows, and one with 100 STR or more should be able to tear through them pretty quickly. At 150 STR(potential energy of 500 billion joules), apply the confetti rule if Mon-El decides to haymaker the Abrams:D

 

One of the major problems with Hero, is that the STR chart has doubled the lift value, while not doubling the damage dealt. There is no one-to-one correspondence between STR (lift) and STR (damage.) Double the STR does 1d6 more... not double the d6.

 

Changing that basic flaw, as I've done, is by dropping the lift capability of STR. Up through about 45-50 STR, I follow the STR chart. at 50-100, it is the equivalent in tons.

i.e. 50 STR = 50 tons... 85 STR = 85 tons... 100 STR = 100 tons. I don't care for or desire the Silver Age STR concepts like battle ships being tossed around. I've scaled that stuff back in concept for my game.

[Marcus]

RE: Destructability, et. al...

 

I've really enjoyed this thread so far. Some comments/occurences based on my own experience, in my own extended, local campaign:

 

After 4.5 years, the party has grown from 250 to 370 'ish' points, with one regular player who came in on the very happy side of 5th ed grandfathering 'way up' at 460 points.

 

As far as we can tell, we are the lowest powered things in the entire gaming universe. Our GM's take on the few surviving X-Men? 750+ points. All of them. Emphasis on the plus. Every NPC we fight? 2 DCs, 5 DEF, 1 SPD, 2 CV better. And thats not the menaces. Around the corners lurk the Giant-Government-Mutant-Killer-Robots, who after FOUR YEARS no PC has dared fight. He bills the things like 'Agents' from the Matrix (You know, the whole 'Noone who has tried to stand and fight them... Not One')... and judging from the effect on the other (now-dead) and then more powerful superheros its a valid billing. Then I open up 'Spacers Toolkit' and think to myself "Hmm. Superheros vs Space Ships-Never Happen". I consider that Giant-Killer-Robots have to be at least as good as tanks (else why build Giant-Killer-Robots, other than to cackle madly?) and realize that a pushed, dice-cap haymaker wont dent a modern MBT.

 

All this sounds like ranting, but it leads to an interesting occurence: 'Stealth Attack Itis' or 'Saying it without Active Points'. These are the things that PCs who feel outweighed, outclassed, and helpless spend their hard earned XP's buying a multi-slot for. When you see 'Penetrating' 'Autofire' 'Killing' and, somewhere else on the sheet 'Autofire Penalty Skill Levels'... you know whats coming. Most PCs (in my experience) would rather just have a 10d EB, or at the most extreme a 4d6RKA, and get on with the blasting of things. Once players learn (and they do, eventually, learn) that these things cannot, and will not, impact their enviornment (at least, not the ENEMY parts of the enviornment... the same 8d6 EB that just barely scratches Dr. Badguys paint will, when missile reflected, reliably near-kill a DPNC...) they start shopping 'Usable-As-Attack' land, they fall in love with Suppress to Body, and they discover that the words 'Sweep' 'Rapid Autofire' 'Penalty Skill Levels' and 'Penetrating', taken together, may be their last best hope for survival.

 

Whats the solution? Im not sure. For my own game, I can just hope that something, at some point, happens to make the hero's feel like something other than the Other Guys, the people who are doing the job because the people who SHOULD be doing it are afraid (or too smart?) to do so. For the rest of the CU... I like both the double-body and damage-per-hex solutions (though not on my growth character for the latter, please??!!).

 

Just my 2c

[RDU Neil]

I really think there is a middle ground between

 

1) destroying a tank with a single blow

 

or

 

2) being afraid of every congressional aide with a butter knife.

 

I have no problem with the first, as long as the point totals reflect the power needed to do such.*

 

The second, I understand as the GM having a world view that explains why supers haven't totally dominated the normal world and warped it away from anything we recognize.

 

I've dealt with this by allowing my players and supers in general to change the game over time... initially starting characters at low power... but as their point totals grew, they gained more and more influence in the world... changed science and society, etc. Characters started out needing to be careful... work within the system, find allies, etc. But the ones with a decade of history and lots of EXP have moved up to the point where people seek THEM out for aide, and THEY make the political decisions and have giant robots (well, at least one...) working for them, etc.

 

I know, as a GM, that it is hard to let go, and let the players really influence the world... but I learned how to guide it and make it work. Maybe your GM will too.

 

* To the point about Space Cruisers and defenses being too much for any regular super dude... it suddenly occurred to me that the problem is linked to the concept behind the STR chart.

As I said before, STR damage doesn't accelerate at the same rate as lifting/force/energy of STR does. This is a game mechanic designed to keep damage at playable levels.

 

Problem is, things like Def and Body of objects and vehicles... as well as military hardware damage breaks this rule. All of these seem to be figured based on more "realistic" calculations of force and mass and energy... but STR and normal EBs etc. are still calculated on a slow progression of double of force is only 1d6 more of damage.

 

Maybe I'm wrong... but that indicates a basic unbalancing of some stats in the game. I dunno... this is all off the top of my head, but I'll do some reading tonight and see. Anyone know what book and page it is stated how they came to the damage and defense levels assigned to tanks and the like?

[Lord Liaden]

I have no problem with whatever degree or level of "realism" one wants to put into one's superhero games. Some folks will want military-level equipment to pose a threat to heroes whatever their point totals, while others will want their Hulk-level heroes to pulverize tanks like Hulk has done in the comics (and the recent movie, I might add). If HERO is to truly allow for play of all the subgenres of superheroics, though, IMHO it should allow for the full spectrum of power level possibilities. Mighty characters should be capable of massive damage, at least to property, if that's appropriate to their concept. OTOH I have concerns with just giving characters extremely high Active Points for their attacks, defenses etc. - that can make it nigh impossible for teams of lower-point opponents to bring them down, which is a scenario which also occurs in comics.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I suspect that the DEF and BODY of many objects statted in HERO are meant to scale with the 4E brick Haymaker, generally much more damaging with high-powered attacks than the current model. Perhaps those stats simply should have been changed to reflect the new reality. However, I've been experimenting with that 1.5 x Base Damage Haymaker for HTH and Ranged attacks in my 5E games, and initial results are promising. The inherent penalties to a Haymaker make it of limited use against a quick, aware opponet; it's more of a finishing maneuver against a Stunned or restrained foe. Hence the effect on most supers combats is not major. OTOH against architecture and relatively slow-moving vehicles it's a practical method to deliver massive damage.

 

Since heavily-Advantaged attacks may do more damage under the 5E Haymaker rules, I'm allowing my players to choose which version of the maneuver they want their attack to do at the time they build it.

 

One thing I have noticed, though: a Haymakered Ranged attack is inherently more difficult for a character to avoid than a HTH attack, which they can often step out of range of before it lands. I've found it useful to make the S/FX of the Haymaker obvious, so that potential targets can notice and anticipate it... something like Thor whirling his hammer, or the Dragonball Z fighters grunting and straining while energy crackles around their hands.

[megaplayboy]

well, yeah, 6d6 RKA has 500 times the energy of 3d6 RKA, but is only twice as lethal. In other words, a 100+ mm round is only twice as likely to kill you as a .50 caliber round:rolleyes:

 

This seems like it was a kind of compromise to keep dice levels relatively low.

 

 

There are some aspects of superbeings which military hardware can't match--speed, accuracy, versatility, relative toughness(a 350 point brick can have higher resistant defenses than a main battle tank, and can survive a couple hits by a big conventional weapon--they'll be deeply unconscious, but very much alive), and lots of loophole abilities(teleportation, invisibility, mental powers). I seriously doubt that a military force could prevail against a sizable group of moderately capable supers(say, 20 or more supers built on 250-500 points), just because the supers wouldn't fight "fair"(sowing confusion behind enemy lines, capturing the leadership, disrupting supply lines, ambushing heavy units, etc).

 

I really don't know what "realistic" means when we're talking about flying bulletproof guys who can lift trucks and fire laser beams out of their eyes;)

 

Back on topic--I'd like the supplement to spend some time talking about running very high level and cosmic games, and the problems and rewards of doing so.