Guest Hunter1 Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Captain Marvel aka Bill Batson Powers: The Wizard Shazam gave him the following powers: Solomon-Wisdom Hercules-Strength Atlas-Stamina Zeus-Power Achilles-Courage Mercury-Speed He must say the word "Shazam" in order to become Captain Marvel, transforming from a boy into a large, muscular man. Captain Mar-Vell aka Rick James? Powers: The Kree captain named Mar-Vell is fused with the normal human Rick James. His powers come from the Kree nega bands on his wrists. Rick has to bang them together to bring Captain Mar-Vell to this dimension, and he then takes his place in the Negative Zone (I think). Captain Mar-Vell can fly, has enhanced strength and durability, can shoot energy blasts, and he has cosmic awareness. This is the version that I want to use in this showdown. Some time travel may be required. Verdict: I have to go with the original Captain Marvel. I think that in some ways he is more powerful that Superman, due to his magical background. Of course, his "Achilles Heel" is the fact that he is really a boy-Billy Batson. Captain Mar-Vell may be able to make Captain Marvel make a mistake, but I think he just doesn't have the power to knock him out or subdue him. It would be interesting to see it in a comic book some day. By the way, I hate Rick James. I hope he get's stuck in the Negative Zone forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 I love Marvel's Captain Marvel, but obviously this one goes to DC. This one is too easy. Next we'll be comparing spiderman and a house spider. (...Hermit! Back away from that poll button...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Captain Mar-Vell would give a good run. He's very understated and goes against some very tough cookies. I'll give the edge to Marvel. But I think Mar-Vell would win 3 out of 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Rick James does "Superfreak" Rick Jones is the professional sidekick I go for Captain Marvel or Captain Marvell - Mar-Vell was never that interesting a read until they killed him off and Captain Marvel demonstrates extreme power far more consistently than Mar-Vell ever did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Scrivner Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 And then there's Isis What can I say? Mar-Vell never had his own Forties movie serial or live action Saturday morning TV show. I give the nod to the Big Red Cheese. Now, if Mar-Vell teamed up with Marvel (Photon), Marvel ("Split!"), and Marvel (the other cosmic fellow) against Marvel ("Shazam!") THEN things could get interesting. Hmmm, I suppose we could throw Captain Marvel Bunny into this one, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I want Rick James as my sidekick! I'll be Funkmaster Blue and he'll be Superfreak! I shall have the power to raise the roof and make your booty shake. And he shall have the power of the mighty B****slap! Pimpsquad assemble! The power of funk compels you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I would give it to Billy hands down ... has anyone seen the last issue of Batman/Superman? How about Kingdom Come? Mar-vell would give him a race ... but at one point, Billy has to get setbacked and turn into the kid and, as Mar-vell approaches him, he screams "SHAZAM!" and nukes Nega-Bands Nelly to Kingdom Come Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 The Fawcett Captain Marvel could beat the Kree Captain Marvel but OTOH, Rick Jones could quite easily defeat Billy Batson. I guess that makes it a tie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 I think that given the statistics they have given the heroes would indicate that Shazam's boy would whip the Kree wonder, but there is this little nugget. If you have ever read the DC Heroes RPG mailing list they talk of Mar-Vell's propencity to ALWAYS rise to the level of his villains. He gets punked around by lowlifes and overcomes them and he goes toe to toe with Thanos and holds his own. His "Protector of the Universe" powers and cosmic awareness might give him clues as to how to deal with the big red cheese. He seems alot more capable in that respect than Marve's "Wisdom of Solomon". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Wisdom of Solomon, Smizdom of Solomon Mar-Vell would win, nega bands down. It was Mar-Vell's job, as Protector of the Universe, to defeat vastly more powerful, mind numbingly scary entities who were set on death and cosmic destruction. Capt. Marvel, on the other hand, semms to have difficulty defetaing some dime store Lex Luthor with a guardianship and a trust fund. In the smarts and startegy department, Marvel doesn't even register, nonetheless rate. have you ever seen on single instance where the wisdom of Solomon has amounted to...anything? Any insight? Anything? No. It seems hard enough for Marvel to grasp the obvious, nonetheless the subtle. In short, he's a big, strong, moron. Mar-Vell, on the hand is, in my opinion, a cosmic version of everyone's beloved Capt. America. He's smart, endlessly determined and so resourceful and scheming that even Thanos was uncomfortable around him. Mar-Vell would punch Marvel's punk card in record time and all the wisdom of Solomon would reveal is that, "Yes, he is your daddy!". I rest my case. Vigil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Originally posted by Enforcer84 I think that given the statistics they have given the heroes would indicate that Shazam's boy would whip the Kree wonder, but there is this little nugget. If you have ever read the DC Heroes RPG mailing list they talk of Mar-Vell's propencity to ALWAYS rise to the level of his villains. He gets punked around by lowlifes and overcomes them and he goes toe to toe with Thanos and holds his own. His "Protector of the Universe" powers and cosmic awareness might give him clues as to how to deal with the big red cheese. He seems alot more capable in that respect than Marve's "Wisdom of Solomon". The way to reflect that in Champions is probably armor piercing attacks and/or Find Weakness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Re: Wisdom of Solomon, Smizdom of Solomon Originally posted by Vigil Mar-Vell would win, nega bands down. It was Mar-Vell's job, as Protector of the Universe, to defeat vastly more powerful, mind numbingly scary entities who were set on death and cosmic destruction. Capt. Marvel, on the other hand, semms to have difficulty defetaing some dime store Lex Luthor with a guardianship and a trust fund. In the smarts and startegy department, Marvel doesn't even register, nonetheless rate. have you ever seen on single instance where the wisdom of Solomon has amounted to...anything? Any insight? Anything? No. It seems hard enough for Marvel to grasp the obvious, nonetheless the subtle. In short, he's a big, strong, moron. Mar-Vell, on the hand is, in my opinion, a cosmic version of everyone's beloved Capt. America. He's smart, endlessly determined and so resourceful and scheming that even Thanos was uncomfortable around him. Mar-Vell would punch Marvel's punk card in record time and all the wisdom of Solomon would reveal is that, "Yes, he is your daddy!". I rest my case. Vigil If you are going to point out what Mar-Vell's job description and power description is and then bash Batson's powers based on power depiction instead of power description... Mar-Vell tangled with some real losers and had far too much of a problem with them for the Protector of the Universe. Incidentally, the way he handled some of those major threats to the universe was to call out the Avengers, etc. to help him. If Captain Marvel gets to do that... Marvel Family, Justice League:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 As much as I like Mar-Vell I'd have to say Captain Marvel, whom I like a whole lot more, would take this hands down. As Agent X stated Mar-Vell's strategy for handling those really big threats was to call in assistance, I don't recall ever seeing him defeat a real big and nasty threat on his own. On top of it, Mar-Vell isn't even the most powerful of the Marvel breed of Captain Marvels. Both Photon and Genis were far more powerful then him in my opinion. Sure Mar-Vell would give it his all and would probably make a good fight out of it, but in the end the Power of Shazam is just too much for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Properly written, they'd never fight at all. Mar-Vell would get a flash of Cosmic Awareness, telling him the Red Cheese's place in the Universe was as a fellow Protector. Captain Marvel's wisdom of Solomon would show there is nothing to gain by it. Had someone set them up to fight, both of those respective abilities should allow them to pierce the ruse and team up. And actually, it might be a very cool team up at that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Denial is more than just a river in Egypt... ...to Captain Marvel fans it's a way of life. Not to put it to harshly but I think, at times, in this discussion you're mistaking the Big Red Cheese for the Bis S Meister himself. Let's look at some of the evidence. Dc Heroes in their RPG gave Captain Marvel pretty high stats (around the range of Captain Atom without the energy stuff...and nothing else. and I think that's apt. You see the thing with Capt. Marvel is that he has amazing abilties and attributes (kinda like Wonder Man in a lot of ways) and very little creative capacity in using them. I asked in my last post if anyone can cite any occassion when Caps, alleged, wisdom of Solomon made any difference at all and I haven't seen any responses. Now, generously, a lot of that is charcter based, Billy hasn't grown into that wisdom yet, but it reflects a deeper reality...Marvel is a pretty poor to medoicre fighter and an abyssmal tactician. He, like Wonder Man, is kinda a bull in a china shop type hero. ( Ifeel compelled to say at this point, that the other difference between Wondy and Marvel is that Wondy is an interesting, compelling character and Marvel isn't) Marvel's got muscle and speed and invulnerability and makes the least of them on every occassion. He's constantly shown to be an incredibly powerful underachiever. (On that note I think it's prudent to point out that the KIngdom Come portrayal isn't relevant since it's an imaginary story as far as continuity goes.) The good Kree captain, on the other hand, is constantly shown and stated to be one of the finest military thinkeers the Kree ever produced, so much so, in fact, that he bacame a danger to The Supremor himself. In his career, Marvel constantly demonstrated a grasp of tactics and psychology that rivalled Captain America's (and anyone who doesn't believe that Capt A can't think circles around Captain Marvel is in a state of psychotic denial of reality) and that was amplified geometrically when he became cosmically aware. Proably the only two demonstrably better tacticians in marvel are Warlock and Thanos, and that's saying a lot for Marvel. So, tactically and psychologically, Mar Vell has it all over Marvel. As for the level of opposition that Mar Vell has faced well there's an insane Cosmic Cube powered Thanos to start. And, yes, he did call on the Avengers and Drax for aid on that occassion but they were there to deal with Thanos's minions. It was Mar Vell himself who had to deal with Thanos, alone and it was his keen mind and determination that carried the day. I don't think Capt Marvel has ever dealt with a nemesis of that power. Beyond that, here's a brief laundry list of some of Mar Vell's other foes: The Stranger (and that was at a time when his power was halfed...without his tactical genius he would have been a smear in that one), Chaos, Stellarax, Elyssia, Nitro, the Super Skrull, the Controller, the Hulk, Sub Mariner and even an insane ISAAC. Again, Marvel's rogues gallery pales in comparison. As for the comment of working down or up to the level of his opponents, I think that there's a fundamental error of perception in that statement. When Mar Vell is depicted fighting goons, etc it isn't that he's having a hard time dealing with them. He isn't. What he is doing is making sure that he only uses the absolute minimum power required to accomplish his goal with the least harm done possible. Then when he's dealing with the big guns he opens up and allows a lot more leeway with his powers but again, seems to only use the minimum amount of power necessary for the job. What I'm trying to say in this rant is that those of you who support Capt Marvel seems to be of the mistaken impression that raw power is everything and it simply isn't. Captain Mar Vell's brilliant mind and tactics coupled with his cosmic awareness would turn the table on Marvel just as it did with the Controller, Thanos and so many others. All the power in the world doesn't make a difference if it isn't used effectively. And that's why, again, Captain Mar Vell would overcome all of Captain Marvel's physical advantages and emerge victorious. Vigil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Re: Denial is more than just a river in Egypt... Originally posted by Vigil ...to Captain Marvel fans it's a way of life. Not to put it to harshly but I think, at times, in this discussion you're mistaking the Big Red Cheese for the Bis S Meister himself. Let's look at some of the evidence. Dc Heroes in their RPG gave Captain Marvel pretty high stats (around the range of Captain Atom without the energy stuff...and nothing else. and I think that's apt. You see the thing with Capt. Marvel is that he has amazing abilties and attributes (kinda like Wonder Man in a lot of ways) and very little creative capacity in using them. I asked in my last post if anyone can cite any occassion when Caps, alleged, wisdom of Solomon made any difference at all and I haven't seen any responses. Now, generously, a lot of that is charcter based, Billy hasn't grown into that wisdom yet, but it reflects a deeper reality...Marvel is a pretty poor to medoicre fighter and an abyssmal tactician. He, like Wonder Man, is kinda a bull in a china shop type hero. ( Ifeel compelled to say at this point, that the other difference between Wondy and Marvel is that Wondy is an interesting, compelling character and Marvel isn't) Marvel's got muscle and speed and invulnerability and makes the least of them on every occassion. He's constantly shown to be an incredibly powerful underachiever. (On that note I think it's prudent to point out that the KIngdom Come portrayal isn't relevant since it's an imaginary story as far as continuity goes.) The good Kree captain, on the other hand, is constantly shown and stated to be one of the finest military thinkeers the Kree ever produced, so much so, in fact, that he bacame a danger to The Supremor himself. In his career, Marvel constantly demonstrated a grasp of tactics and psychology that rivalled Captain America's (and anyone who doesn't believe that Capt A can't think circles around Captain Marvel is in a state of psychotic denial of reality) and that was amplified geometrically when he became cosmically aware. Proably the only two demonstrably better tacticians in marvel are Warlock and Thanos, and that's saying a lot for Marvel. So, tactically and psychologically, Mar Vell has it all over Marvel. As for the level of opposition that Mar Vell has faced well there's an insane Cosmic Cube powered Thanos to start. And, yes, he did call on the Avengers and Drax for aid on that occassion but they were there to deal with Thanos's minions. It was Mar Vell himself who had to deal with Thanos, alone and it was his keen mind and determination that carried the day. I don't think Capt Marvel has ever dealt with a nemesis of that power. Beyond that, here's a brief laundry list of some of Mar Vell's other foes: The Stranger (and that was at a time when his power was halfed...without his tactical genius he would have been a smear in that one), Chaos, Stellarax, Elyssia, Nitro, the Super Skrull, the Controller, the Hulk, Sub Mariner and even an insane ISAAC. Again, Marvel's rogues gallery pales in comparison. As for the comment of working down or up to the level of his opponents, I think that there's a fundamental error of perception in that statement. When Mar Vell is depicted fighting goons, etc it isn't that he's having a hard time dealing with them. He isn't. What he is doing is making sure that he only uses the absolute minimum power required to accomplish his goal with the least harm done possible. Then when he's dealing with the big guns he opens up and allows a lot more leeway with his powers but again, seems to only use the minimum amount of power necessary for the job. What I'm trying to say in this rant is that those of you who support Capt Marvel seems to be of the mistaken impression that raw power is everything and it simply isn't. Captain Mar Vell's brilliant mind and tactics coupled with his cosmic awareness would turn the table on Marvel just as it did with the Controller, Thanos and so many others. All the power in the world doesn't make a difference if it isn't used effectively. And that's why, again, Captain Mar Vell would overcome all of Captain Marvel's physical advantages and emerge victorious. Vigil Denial isn't a river in Egypt. The Nile is a river in Egypt and it's the longest river in the world. You must not read Captain Marvel stories or posters on the boards who write about them. I haven't really kept up with Captain Marvel but other posters have mentioned that the writers have been using his Wisdom of Solomon more often of late. Show me an example of great military thinking on Mar-Vell's part. Rogue's Gallery: You forget that part of Captain Marvel's rogues gallery are MYTHOLOGICAL GODS that, I would say, are the equal or more than the equal of the opponents Mar-Vell has faced. Nitro vs. Mammon, hmmm? I'm pretty sure Mammon is tougher. As far as Thanos is concerned, they liken him often to the big gods like Odin and Zeus... when he's powered up on some plot device. Captain Marvel: Power of Zeus among other things. Minimum Power? I guess that worked out for him, what with the cancer and everything. Mar-Vell's brilliant mind? Could you provide an example? Since the Wisdom of Solomon doesn't count without examples, I think it's only fair for you to give us examples of brilliance. Beating Thanos isn't of itself proof of brilliance. BTW, half the Marvel cast has beaten some loon with a Cosmic Cube at one time or another. That's such a big deal they threw it in with a throwaway villain in a Marvel 2 in 1 issue where Cap, the non-powered hero, took the guy out. Heroes beat the bad guys. It's a poor method of comparison. Spiderman beat the Stranger. Are you telling me that Spiderman, barring plot device, is gonna take down Captain Marvel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Originally posted by Hermit And actually, it might be a very cool team up at that I'm willing to proclaim winner at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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