APG 3 Ideal: AVLD Levels Beyond Rare.

[steriaca]

I was just thinking about a thought character whose Aid power could be resisted, and always be resisted, by Power Defense (something it normally cannot be used to resist the power). That got me thinking...should there be levels beyond Rare? Well...

 

Extra Rare: The power is only resistance to a given situation, and the chances that the power is resisted against are unlikely, but not impossible, to appear. The character could presumably encounter one or two people immune to that power in his lifetime (if he is unlucky).

 

Undefensable: (STOP SIGN!!!) There is no defense for this power. Everyone can be affected by it, excluding being Desolification upon hit. While this is the sixth level of this advantage (costing +2 and 1/2 advantage starting from Level 1), the GM is free to use the same overly effected attack mandatory +1 extra as Autofire if he thinks the power is too thugly (or even higher).

 

What do you think? Should there be another level between Extra Rare and Undefensable?

[Grailknight]

I doubt these are necessary  but I could change my mind.

 

Please give some  power examples as rarity varies greatly from campaign to campaign. I've seen worlds where 5% of the general population had 5-15 points of defensive powers such  Mental or Power Defense, a random Life support or 1-3 points of Resistant PD?ED  to reflect humanity's continued evolution. In such a world your extra categories may not be appropriate.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

So, for 63 AP, I get 2 1/2 d6 that bypasses all defenses.  That will average 9 STUN past defenses. 

 

If I bought a 12 1/2d6 normal attack, for 63 AP, my average roll is 44, so I get 9 STUN past 35 defenses.

 

I don't see a huge imbalance if we allowed + 2 1/2 "attack with no defense"

 

However, I would not give it Affects Desolid for free when the lower levels of AVLD are affected by desolidification.  [EDIT: My misread - the intent was not to allow this to harm a desolid target]

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I doubt these are necessary  but I could change my mind.

 

I am in the same camp, but the APGs are pretty much niche "what if we did this" super specific ideas for the most part anyway so it fits in.

[Duke Bushido]

Before throwing in with the "I don't think we'd ever need it" club, 

 

I will show you the proper courtesy of due diligence, because I think there's always a chance I could be wrong:

 

How do you see this being different from AVALD or existing Advantages?

 

(and I agree with Chris:  the APGs are less "guides to getting familiar with the rules and playing more smoothly" than they are "hey!  Want to twist the rules and do some really goofy stuff?" or "We know you love rules for corner cases; now let's check out some fractals!" books.)

 

 

[steriaca]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

However, I would not give it Affects Desolid for free when the lower levels of AVLD are affected by desolidification.

I didn't give it a free Affects Desilid. Desolification is still a defense, and valued one, against such powers.

 

Examples of Extra Rare: left handed, red haired people named Ffred, a straight faerie, people who have died once but are not undead (ok...that was a bit tongue in cheek).

 

Like people have said, what is considered Extra Rare depends on the Game Master and there universe. 

[Hugh Neilson]

Sorry; I misread the "desolid" - edited now.

 

A "virtually no one will have the defense" power that does the same STUN as a campaign average attack against well above campaign-average defenses does not seem unbalanced to me.

 

Oh, and I do recall, many years back, some "push the envelope to breaking" Vulnerabilities foisted off on a rookie GM:

 

 - octogenarian Norwegians wielding hammers;

 - green and purple froglike martians using solar-powered cold weapons.

 

I also recall considering "Invasion of the Green and Purple Froglike Martians Using Solar-powered Cold Weapons" as a campaign arc in some future game...

[Grailknight]

16 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Sorry; I misread the "desolid" - edited now.

 

A "virtually no one will have the defense" power that does the same STUN as a campaign average attack against well above campaign-average defenses does not seem unbalanced to me.

 

Oh, and I do recall, many years back, some "push the envelope to breaking" Vulnerabilities foisted off on a rookie GM:

 

 - octogenarian Norwegians wielding hammers;

 - green and purple froglike martians using solar-powered cold weapons.

 

I also recall considering "Invasion of the Green and Purple Froglike Martians Using Solar-powered Cold Weapons" as a campaign arc in some future game...

 

I agree with the caveat that the same does not hold true for BODY damage.

[SCUBA Hero]

That's already the case: (6E1, p 326) "AVAD attacks only do STUN damage (even if in their ordinary form they do BODY), and the specified defense reduces their effect as usual."

[Grailknight]

14 hours ago, SCUBA Hero said:

That's already the case: (6E1, p 326) "AVAD attacks only do STUN damage (even if in their ordinary form they do BODY), and the specified defense reduces their effect as usual."

 

Known. I would not agree to allow this with  Does BODY added however while I might if only STUN were involved.   

[SCUBA Hero]

Makes sense.  You'd need a 36d6 Normal attack to do Body on an average roll against 35 defense.

[Duke Bushido]

11 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Known. I would not agree to allow this with  Does BODY added however while I might if only STUN were involved.   

 

 

Yep.  See "Penetrating Points" in.... Champs III?  to do Body against any Defense.

 

 

[SCUBA Hero]

Yeah, I was sorry to see that one go.  But it's really just more dice of damage added to the base attack with the Limitation "Only Against Defenses", possibly with Standard Effect.

[steriaca]

16 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Known. I would not agree to allow this with  Does BODY added however while I might if only STUN were involved.   

I would enforce the "overly effected attack" of +1 mandatory advantage. Especially with this at the Undefencable level and Does BODY.

[steriaca]

It should be noted that, as an option for the GM, any Undefensable attack power have a extremely rare defense in the same way that an Unbreakable Focus can be broken. I don't expect any deity level being can be affected by an Undefensable attack. Or any cosmic incarnation of an eternal concept like time and space and life and death.

[steriaca]

Anybody have anything they want to see in a theroical APG3? I'm sure my expansion of AVAD isn't the only thing.

[Grailknight]

A fix for Growth.

[steriaca]

6 hours ago, Grailknight said:

A fix for Growth.

Ok. What would you like fixed about Growth?

[Grailknight]

10 hours ago, steriaca said:

Ok. What would you like fixed about Growth?

 

Something that is not the current templates but level based as in earlier editions. A set package of STR, Running and some form of Defenses that is consistent from level to level.

[steriaca]

4 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

Something that is not the current templates but level based as in earlier editions. A set package of STR, Running and some form of Defenses that is consistent from level to level.

Oh. That.

 

We might have to wait for the next edition for that.

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't so much mind the size templates, but a more granular Growth power between those levels would be beneficial.

[Duke Bushido]

On 3/8/2022 at 5:51 PM, Grailknight said:

A fix for Growth.

 

On 3/9/2022 at 10:45 AM, Grailknight said:

 

Something that is not the current templates but level based as in earlier editions. A set package of STR, Running and some form of Defenses that is consistent from level to level.

 

9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 more granular Growth power between those levels would be beneficial.

 

 

Let me preface this by saying that I am well aware that this won't work for anyone who started HERO / Champions with 6e, but my "fix" for _lots_ of my personal complaints has been to ignore the Hell out of every 6e "fix" for things I never found to actually be broken.

 

 

Just sayin'.....

[Grailknight]

I posted this before and got minimal feed back

 

Posted June 10, 2018

Here's my post from the other thread.

 

That's part of my modifiers but its still a work in progress.

 

Here's a rough draft. Take note that all these powers are being valued with 2x /Costs End because you pay End for Growth and then in some cases for the added power.

 

Growth: Each level costs 15 points and gains the character the following

 

+10 STR

+1 OCV (HTH only)

+1 PD and +1 ED Damage Negation

+1" Knockback Resistance

+1" Stretching

+2 Meters Running (not sure here)

+3 Pre ( also open to debate)

 

-2 DCV

2x Size

8x Mass

-2 Stealth 

 

Feedback is welcomed.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

I posted this before and got minimal feed back

 

Posted June 10, 2018

Here's my post from the other thread.

 

That's part of my modifiers but its still a work in progress.

 

Here's a rough draft. Take note that all these powers are being valued with 2x /Costs End because you pay End for Growth and then in some cases for the added power.

 

Can you explain that...  differently?  No; I'm not an idiot (said the moron), but something just isn't clicking.  Could be all the late nights, but something's not clicking.  I'm not sure why you're doing the 2x END here.  Yes: I get that if you use the STR that comes with Growth, you pay END for that STR, but I think you're saying something... beyond that, maybe?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

Growth: Each level costs 15 points and gains the character the following

 

+10 STR

+1 OCV (HTH only)

+1 PD and +1 ED Damage Negation

+1" Knockback Resistance

+1" Stretching

+2 Meters Running (not sure here)

+3 Pre ( also open to debate)

 

compared to what pre-6 Growth was, I think I get the costing: you're adding in a few things it didn't get before, like the stretching and the movement.  With that in mind, I have no problem with the price increase.  Be aware, however, that just like that God-awful "Growth Momentum" thing that popped up an edition or so back, including those as default does two things:

 

it assumes a particular special effect (I become huge, and remain perfectly me-not-grown shaped and proportioned and become a bit faster (more in a moment).

It makes available a less-expensive version of Growth by taking custom Limitations on the bits you're not interested in:  I don't want the stretching or the running; is that a -1 or a -1.25?  (yes; those values are pulled completely from the air, because as I mentioned: I have a head full of fuzzy visions of sleep right now.  Anyone following along: arguing those numbers is playing solitaire: they are used for example, and I have no interest in defending them now or in the future.  Have fun with it  ).

 

I can sort of get behind the PRE, so long as it was "only to create reaction."  Just because you're big doesn't mean you don't suffer the same phobias or fear of guns or whatever that you had when you weren't big.  It _does_, however, make you a bit more startling to stumble into.    Yes; I get that "well now that I'm way up here, I can't see how scary you are!"  However, HERO doesn't require any sort of eyesight or PER penalties assessed against you because you're big, so by the rules, what was unnerving before is just as unnerving as it was before.

 

No the promised more on movement:

 

First, I can go either way on this:  It's easy to say "but my stride has become huge!"  It's easy to say because... well, you're _right_!  At least, assuming you are still little-guy-you shaped when you're big.  However, each leg is eight times as massive as it was before, and inertia remains, so it is not guaranteed that you will be faster than you were; it's entirely reasonable to assume that, against inertia, you move in a more slow-motion type fashion.  I say "type" because it's not actually slower; it just takes longer to move each leg.

 

As a F'rinstance, in boxing, it's generally accepted (at least until Mike Tyson way back then) that a big fighter was slower than a smaller fighter.  Yes, he also hit with much greater power, but he didn't do it as quickly.  Even a "fast" big guy was slower than a fast little guy.  One of those reasons is throw length (though, for Growth, it would be leg length).  A fighter throwing a twelve-inch punch doesn't have to move as far to punch, draw back, and punch again as a fighter throwing a sixteen or an eighteen inch punch.  In order to just move at the exact same speed-- that is, blows per minute-- the bigger guy would work much harder, and have to punch much faster, just to hit the same number of blows in the same length of time.

 

I think the same thing comes into play with Growth:  you're legs are moving further with each step, but they aren't necessarily covering more ground per minute than they would when you're small; there's a lot more leg to lift and push, and a lot of you to rock forward onto each new step.  Again: I _get_ the justification for the extra movement; I am simply saying that I see equal justification for _not_ getting that extra movement.  Granted, it's easier to see than when you grew up as both the shortest and the fastest of thirteen kids. 

 

The Stretching--- well, I can go either way with that, too.  Granted, lots of this is because I tend to be leery of "compound powers."  That's "compound powers" with quotes, as opposed to compound powers without quotes, because compound powers without quotes means that you are paying for each power (though sure: depending on your rules edition, you may take discounts on one of them, but you are still legitimately buying it.  "Compound powers," however, is free other powers tossed in as SFX of some other power but not actually paying for those extra powers.  I see that you have raised the cost a bit, and were I not able to see a number of Growth SFX that do not provide extra reach, I probably wouldn't think twice, so like I said:  I can go either way on that with what you've got thus far.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

-2 DCV

2x Size

8x Mass

-2 Stealth 

 

I wouldn't assess a Stealth penalty per se.  I would go with the older editions rules and assess a PER bonus to anyone who might detect you.  It works out the same way, with the added bonus that I can't bypass the penalty simply by not trying to be stealthy. 

 

 

That, and if part of your power set is Desolidification or even Flight, there's no reason that being bigger should make you louder.  Walking, sure, but flying in stealthy and quiet?  That's a possibility too, and one that should not take a penalty because you grew (Good Lord!  Did you hear that?  It sounded like a really _huge_ guy in a hang glider!    )

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

 

Feedback is welcomed.

 

I hope you meant that. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Grailknight]

The mention of 2x END or Costs End was mentioned just to help someone figure out how I arrived at the cost.

 

As far as PRE goes, making it only for offense  would be fine.

 

The Stretching should be there, it's just reach given it's actual game term.

 

The Running makes sense. Growth doesn't make you slower in any way by RAW. You lose DCV because you're bigger but your DEX, SPD and OCV are unaffected.

 

Same with Stealth, you're not noisier but it's hard to hide when you're 4 meters tall.

 

And yes I do want the feedback, thank you.