High Dex characters aborting

[The Souljourner]

One other thing irked me during my first game of Hero (besides no attack then move, which is in a separate thread):

 

Once you act in a phase, you can no longer abort until the next phase.

 

This restricts high dex characters to these two options:

 

1.) Hold your action until everyone has gone so you can abort if you need to (which totally negates the whole "going first" benefit, since a low dex character can abort even though he hasn't gone yet).

 

2.) Go first (which is what high Dex is supposed to do), and then be completely helpless while everyone else in the round gets to go. And since they watched you go and do your thing, they *know* you can't abort, so they're *more* likely to throw things at you that need an abort to properly defend against.

 

I had a high dex, high speed character (they often go together), and I got screwed on a number of occasions because I went first (yay high dex) but then got tagged by area of effect attacks from which I couldn't dive for cover.

 

So what's up with that? You can abort even if you don't go this phase, by giving up your next segment... but if do go this phase and you have already gone, you can't give up your next segment? Why? It doesn't seem to make any sense. It seems like you always ought to be able to give up your next phase in order to abort, regardless of when you go.

 

Thoughts? Explanations?

 

-Nate

[Talon]

High DEX gives you the choice -- act or wait. If you fear people throwing stuff at you, wait. The low DEX types don't have that option; if they /need/ to get something off before everyone else, they can't, whereas you can. It works well, but does involve playing some tricks with held actions.

[lemming]

Actually, with this one we did experiment with allowing aborts at any time even if you attacked during that segment.

For Fantasy Hero games it seemed to work fine. In Superheroic combat where we had a wider spread of speeds and powers, it was too easily abused.

[Monolith]

Re: High Dex characters aborting

 

Originally posted by The Souljourner

I had a high dex, high speed character (they often go together), and I got screwed on a number of occasions because I went first (yay high dex) but then got tagged by area of effect attacks from which I couldn't dive for cover.

Well right there you have learned a rule of HERO. It is a thinking game, and a tactics game. If you know you are going to be fighting people with area effect attacks then you need to be more cautious in your choices of what you do in combat.

 

Too many people have the D&D mentality of I go, he goes, or he goes, I go. It does not work that way in HERO. In HERO you must decide from a dozen different combat maneuvers and how you want to use them. If you think you are going to need to dodge or dive for cover then you do not want to be attacking.

 

Half of Spider-man's combats consist of him dodging 5 panels and then hitting on the next. What is that in HERO terms? 5 phases of Dodge with 1 Phase of attack on a 6 SPD character.

 

Now I don't know the nature of your character, or the nature of your GM. It could be that the GM just wanted to toast you for some reason that night. Or it could be that your character is so high in DEX and SPD that the GM cannot hit him any other way. Like I said, I don't know. As a GM myself I would probably have one villain with an AE attack in a game just to fight my Spider-man clone. I wouldn't have several though. And I would also expect the player of that character to use combat maneuver to beat the attack, not just hope they missed so that the high SPD character could attack on any Phase he wanted with impunity.

 

Now if you think it is fair that you should be able to abort to a defensive action after an attack, you should talk to your GM about allowing you to do it, or allowing you to buy a special Talent, something along the lines of "Hyper-Reflexes," to allow you to do it. Personally prefer it if the player just use his delays and combat maneuvers to the best of his ability.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: High Dex characters aborting

 

Originally posted by The Souljourner

So what's up with that? You can abort even if you don't go this phase, by giving up your next segment... but if do go this phase and you have already gone, you can't give up your next segment? Why? It doesn't seem to make any sense. It seems like you always ought to be able to give up your next phase in order to abort, regardless of when you go.

 

Has this changed or have I always played it wrong? The way I play it is that you cannot abort on the very same segment on which you attack. On the very next segment I can abort my next phase to a defensive action.

 

For example. MartialArts Man (SPD 6) on segment 2 throws a kick at BrickGuy (SPD 4) hoping to take him out of the fight. It just makes BrickGuy mad and on segment 3 BrickGuy throws a bus at MartialArts Man. As it is the next segment MartialArts Man aborts his segment 4 phase to dive for cover. Both will next move on segment 6.

 

The way Nate has phrased it seems back to front to me...

[Monolith]

Re: Re: High Dex characters aborting

 

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

The way Nate has phrased it seems back to front to me...

What Nate is talking about is punching someone on Phase 2, and then wanting to abort on Phase 2 to avoid being hit by something after he has already attacked or done a full move. There is not problem if he wanted to do that abort on Segment 3.

[misterdeath]

Re: Re: High Dex characters aborting

 

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

Has this changed or have I always played it wrong? The way I play it is that you cannot abort on the very same segment on which you attack. On the very next segment I can abort my next phase to a defensive action.

 

For example. MartialArts Man (SPD 6) on segment 2 throws a kick at BrickGuy (SPD 4) hoping to take him out of the fight. It just makes BrickGuy mad and on segment 3 BrickGuy throws a bus at MartialArts Man. As it is the next segment MartialArts Man aborts his segment 4 phase to dive for cover. Both will next move on segment 6.

 

The way Nate has phrased it seems back to front to me...

 

No, you're both right.

 

You can't abort in the Same Phase you've taken an action.

 

So, if you were on Phase 12, MartialArts Man throws his kick and BrickGuy and fails to put him out of action. On his Dex in Phase 12 BrickGuy grabs a car and pastes MartialArts Man, who can't do much other than take it, since it's the same phase.

 

If it were different phases, then sure, you can abort to your next action. If it's the same phase, you're fragged.

 

D

[The Souljourner]

Originally posted by Talon

High DEX gives you the choice -- act or wait. If you fear people throwing stuff at you, wait. The low DEX types don't have that option; if they /need/ to get something off before everyone else, they can't, whereas you can. It works well, but does involve playing some tricks with held actions.

 

But there's rarely a time when I would choose "go first and quite possibly get screwed" or "wait, and don't get screwed".

 

I don't like the fact that the wise thing to do is to hold your action every single phase. If you have a high dex character (presumably with lower than average defenses, since you're relying on not getting hit rather than soaking up the damage with armor), and you know that your opponent has an area of effect attack, then you'll *always* hold your action. You'd be foolish not to.

 

Personally, I don't think holding your action should be the no-brainer thing to do every single round of combat. It should be a special case, on the order of "I'll hold my action to shoot him when he comes out from behind cover", not "That wizard has fireballs, so I'll hold my action every round so I'll have at least a slight opportunity to avoid them".

 

 

Right.... you punch a guy on 4, and he throws a car at you later on 4, you just have to take it, but if he had thrown it on 5, you would be able to do something about it. Why?

 

-Nate

[Monolith]

Originally posted by The Souljourner

Right.... you punch a guy on 4, and he throws a car at you later on 4, you just have to take it, but if he had thrown it on 5, you would be able to do something about it. Why?

Because otherwise everyone would be attacking and dodging, and would take additional Speed just to be able to deal with the aborts. It is about balance. Ask yourself this... would you like it if everytime you attacked someone they were allowed do a dodge maneuver, even though they had already attacked?

 

So on Phase 12 Mechanon grabs your teammate and started ripping him in half. You think: Oh! I must save Paper-man! So you do a "techno-turbo spinning robot-destroyer kick" but Mechanon decides to abort to a block to keep from getting hit.

 

So do you say: Ok GM, I know he had a Phase-ending attack action, but it's ok that you made me miss him?

 

Or do you say: Hey! Mechanon cannot go this Phase! That's why I chose to do my 3x END techno-turbo spinning robot-destroyer kick! You cheated me!!!

[Nevenall]

I like to think of the rule in terms of a duel.

You can defend, or you can commit to an attack. Once you commit yourself to an attack you are more vulnerable then if you just stood back and defended yourself.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by The Souljourner

But there's rarely a time when I would choose "go first and quite possibly get screwed" or "wait, and don't get screwed".

 

I don't like the fact that the wise thing to do is to hold your action every single phase. If you have a high dex character (presumably with lower than average defenses, since you're relying on not getting hit rather than soaking up the damage with armor), and you know that your opponent has an area of effect attack, then you'll *always* hold your action. You'd be foolish not to.

Until your opponents run out of actions. Also, look at the SPD chart. There are gaps in the middle where a high SPD character picks up extra actions over lower SPD Actions, so for example a 6 SPD goes on 2 4 6 8 10 12, but a 4 SPD goes on 3 6 9 12. You hold your 2 for their 3, go on 4, hold on 6 for their 6, hold on 8 for their 9, go on 10, and hold on 12 for their 12. Plus, if at any time you dont have to use your held action to dodge/d4c then you go anyway AFTER everyone else has already committed, using your heightened response time to strike not necessarily FIRST but when it is most opportune.

 

Originally posted by The Souljourner

Personally, I don't think holding your action should be the no-brainer thing to do every single round of combat. It should be a special case, on the order of "I'll hold my action to shoot him when he comes out from behind cover", not "That wizard has fireballs, so I'll hold my action every round so I'll have at least a slight opportunity to avoid them".

Unless the wizard is also high SPD high DEX, you will have extra actions in which to do things. Also, if someone is launching AoE attacks at you, close on them, getting as close as possible. If they dont have Personal Immunity to their own attack, they'll stop using the AoE, or at least have to manuever to do so.

 

Originally posted by The Souljourner

Right.... you punch a guy on 4, and he throws a car at you later on 4, you just have to take it, but if he had thrown it on 5, you would be able to do something about it. Why?

Because youve committed to an attack. 1 Phase is 1 second. You try punching a guy and simultaneously leaping out of the way of a car. Also remember that if you punch someone that you fear will swat you with their next action, you should do so expecting to stagger them or knock them so far back they cant effect you. If you cant do either reasonably, then dont punch them -- find a better option. In this case, if you think they are likely to throw a car at you exercise other options including, throwing them away from the car, throwing or destroying the car, hitting them with the car first, entangling them, distracting them, etc. Better yet use your superior reflexes to wait for them to act and then effectively block-stop them by taking your action during their action to interfere with what they are doing. The guy goes to grab the car, take your held and legsweep him, so he falls over. Or take your held and run around a corner. Or take your held and do anything else that presents itself in that situation based upon your characters abilities.

 

This isnt like many other games where you just trade hits with opponents like rock-em-sock-em robots, and the 1st person to hit has a marked advantage. There is a give and play to HEROs combats, a pacing. I usually spend the 1st half TURN to TURN measuring each combat, figuring out the pace of it, who has what SPD and relative DEX, and finding the perfect time to strike. Ill also often conceal my real SPD and DEX from enemies, not taking all of my actions or going at my full initiative, luring them into a pattern of attack and counter, much like fencing, until I find an opening and then accelerate to my full DEX and SPD to surprise them.

 

You have to think your way thru a HEROs combat and realize that there is more to it than "I hit you first".

 

Also, being fast isnt enough in the HERO System, youve go to have something to back it up. If you dont have much to do with all that extra DEX and SPD, then you arent going to be very effective. You'll take a lot of actions but accomplish little. Ive seen it so many times where a new player will obsess over DEX and SPD to the detriment of a well rounded, flexible character and then get frustrated when they arent very effective. Ive got a player in my current group in fact who is trapped in the MORE DEX+SPD = GREAT trap. His current character is one of the fastest in the group, much faster than he really should be considering he's a major brick. But he's one of the least effective members of the group. Sure, he can take a beating and lay one down as well, but thats all he can do. He's constantly overshadowed by less characteristic-heavy characters that can actually do things with their actions other than hit really hard.

 

So basically Im saying that a) you need to learn how to use the SPD chart to your advantage, and you might just have a poorly designed character that is unable to take proper advantage of his boosted DEX + SPD.

[Tech]

Souljourner, I don't much more to add. I've run into situations where I've had a high Dex character wait alot because a brick was trying to smack my character around. However, don't forget the DCV is in itself a form of defense. If you strongly feel that you need some form of combat option as you speaking about for your game, talk to the GM. Try a game but be open: I've tried many 'new' options to combat only to drop every single one of them (I think). An idea in concept may sound like a good concept to be able to have your character do until you realize what's good for one is good for the other - villains will get this, too!

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by The Souljourner

you punch a guy on 4, and he throws a car at you later on 4, you just have to take it, but if he had thrown it on 5, you would be able to do something about it. Why?

For the same reason you can't have a SPD above 12 or Hold an action into a Phase in which you already act. The system doesn't allow you to "double-up" and take two "Phases" in the same Segment. Saying that you can't Abort in a Segment where you've already acted is just consistent with the rest of the system. You can't act twice in a Segment by any other means either.

[Farkling]

I've played a max DEX/SPD speedster in a campaign within the last year and a half (longer ago than I thought!)

 

I had a SPD 8 in a group where SPD 5 was the highest.

My DEX was 15 points higher than the highest, and my CV was atrocious. I had very little in the way of combat ability compared to the people we fought with. The GM did use the Area Effect approach, and I did a lot of holding and diving for cover. Luckily I could dive further than the AE attacks could blast. My tip is to dive towards the attacker. If he flys, get someone else in the group to go after him while he shoots at you. Then run around drawing his fire until your buddy gets the bastard.

 

I had electrical powers that were of little use against most supers, single doses were not as useful as the multiple doses over a long period... however, I could do some really terrific damage to metallic objects. I started snatching focusses from people in combat, with move bys. I couldn't break a lot of them, but I had a temamate who could. And I made very short work of some well armored high-end agents we fought, I ran by and stole their weapons, and I even half disentegrated their tank.

[Guest Keneton]

Some of the confusion on this thread is that people are using PHASE interchangebly with SEGMENT. As for my fellow hero gurus answering the system complaints, I say well said!

 

One "attack action" or abort per segment is plenty fine and correct.

[caris]

Ok, Souljourner, first of all, remember that you are dealing with a fixed initiative system, and therefore there is no chance that your lower DEX characters will ever go before the higher DEX character. There really has to be something to balance that out. The choice made was to create a situation that would discourage the high DEX character from committing his full action every Phase.

 

From the way you are describing the situation, I don’t think that your character would have been greatly benefited by being able to abort earlier than the next segment. It sounds like your character would have gotten one attack, and then the lower DEX character would have pinned him with AoE. Since you loose your following phase’s action whenever you abort to a defensive action. They would just have to keep you diving for cover to keep you from ever actually getting an action.

[Catseye]

When I gvie new players at cons characters I generally give them a tips sheet.

 

If its a "light fighter" (high speed, low armor) then IU generally recommend they hold their action regularly until just before their next action for this reason.

 

Having played such a character, as well as had a whole 6 weeks of fencing, it actually feels quite natural and correct. In fencing the rule is generally block/riposte. You wait for the incoming attack, block it out and then immediately attack back before your opponent his his sword back to a defensive position.

[Paragon]

Originally posted by Catseye

When I gvie new players at cons characters I generally give them a tips sheet.

 

If its a "light fighter" (high speed, low armor) then IU generally recommend they hold their action regularly until just before their next action for this reason.

 

Having played such a character, as well as had a whole 6 weeks of fencing, it actually feels quite natural and correct. In fencing the rule is generally block/riposte. You wait for the incoming attack, block it out and then immediately attack back before your opponent his his sword back to a defensive position.

 

It also feels very much like the martial arts I trained in in my younger days. I've played quite a few characters like this over the years, and they work out very well. You just have to remember to pay attention to where you are in the round. For example, if you're on seg 5 and fighting mooks of some kind, chances are you can take your action; they aren't going to be able to do anything untile 4 or 6 anyway unless they delayed, so by the next time they do you can abort.

[Chromatic]

Ironic that I find this thread a few days after signing back on. This has been a long time quirk of Hero. Anyone that plays a fragile high speed character is going to run into the situation. Bothersome enough that I poke fun of it in my location.....

 

As a player of a relatively high speed martial artist for a long time, I came up with some ideas that helped this situation, and our gaming group had some house rules as well.

 

One thing to remember, if your MA has a 30 dex and you delay to act at dex 18, you can still get the jump on that dex 18 monstrosity that wants to paste you into oblivion.

 

House rule: If you have a waiting action, you can just "walk" for cover. Roll the dice, make your dex move, and you can move as fast and as far as your halfmove. No need to declair a distance in advance.

 

This works suprisingly well. As long as the fra-geeelay hold an action. Of course if you have too much speed and don't want to lose an action, well you know the phrase: Speed kills.

 

The game mechanic that I came up with helps to simulate the really fast guys in gang type combats. Spiderman always seems to have a half-move to jump out of the stray bullets, Captian America is uncanny in his ability to bring his shield up just in the nick of time. The answer? Floating Speed pip. (dear God, he's opened the Pandora's box and the world is no longer safe!)

 

Floating speed pip is essentially +Speed to bring you to a full 12 speed, only usuable 1 time a turn.

 

Spiderman has a 38 dex, 7 speed. He buys a Floating Speed Pip: +5 speed, usuable once a turn - 1.75, total cost 18. Sure he could almost have a 9 speed for the points spent, but this gives him the ability to go on segment 1 if he needs; or he can save it to do four actions in a row on segments 9, 10, 11, and 12; or he can burn it up in an abort on any segment he hasn't already attacked. (even on 6, he aborts his given 7, then uses the float on seg 7 and continues with his normal phases on 9, 11, and 12). The Floating Speed Pip has been used for at least 15 years in various characters I've played, and been on others in a multitude of campaigns. I'm convinced that it is balanced for the points, and not unreasonable.

[Eclipse]

Interesting build there, Chromatic.

 

I think 18 points is a fair amount for that ability. However, that only comes to 18 points for a Speed 7 character. A speed 10 character would pay only 7! A speed 3 character would be paying 33. And they all get the same result. Yes, the lower Speed character's extra point is slightly more flexible since he has more "open" segments to use it on, but not enough to warrant a 15 point difference. And the Speed 10 and 11 characters get more usefelness than one point of normal Speed, for LESS cost.

 

I like the idea, but the payment for it is only balanced for a very few Speed numbers.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Eclipse

Interesting build there, Chromatic.

 

I like the idea, but the payment for it is only balanced for a very few Speed numbers.

IIRC, it depends on what your base speed is for the cost as well.

Having seen it in action, it's reasonable.

[Chromatic]

Eclipse: .....but the payment for it is only balanced for a very few Speed numbers

 

3 speed characters don't usually have a high dex (the subject of this thread, but they would get more of a limitation (-3)

 

For higher speeds, the limitation isn't worth -1.75

 

here's my take on what the lim "once per turn" is worth:

 

adding this much speed......................lim value

8......................................................-2.5

7......................................................-2.25

6......................................................-2

5......................................................-1.75

4......................................................-1.5

3......................................................-1

2......................................................-.5

1......................................................duh

 

I guess I should have included this "chart" in the first post....

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Chromatic

here's my take on what the lim "once per turn" is worth:

adding this much speed......................lim value

8......................................................-2.5

7......................................................-2.25

6......................................................-2

I can't see how this could ever be worth more than -1.75. I mean, one Charge per day is only -2. So how could one use per Turn possibly be worth more than that?

[Chromatic]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

I can't see how this could ever be worth more than -1.75. I mean, one Charge per day is only -2. So how could one use per Turn possibly be worth more than that?

 

You're correct of course. However I plead the "it was 3 am" defense combined with the meta-rule of "how much of a limitation is the limitation compared to how much use do you get out of the power?"

 

If you put a limit on say life support: no need breath (must hold breath only for 5 min) in a space opera game where the characters are going to be near vacuum every game, it would be worth more than in a down and dirty street game.

 

Thus since speed is used every phase, no matter what (by design) limiting it has a larger experienced effect than limiting say lack of weakness.

 

I agree this is a cheezy arguement. I will also stand by my original statement that I would never think of using a floating speed pip for a character with less than a six speed.