Argument Concerning Desolification

[Doc Democracy]

4 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

What about the character with a 15 STR or a 10 STR, they still easily could be using a knife but still only doing as much damage as that weak halfling.

 

Actually, if you are skilled in the use of the weapon, STR might not be (and perhaps should not be) the deciding factor in that knife fight.  I think that I would be content to see the damage each  of those opponents delivering with slashes and stabs being reasonably consistent.  The 10 or 15 STR character has options in picking up bigger weapons that do more damage - an advantage in purchasing that STR.  I am reasonably comfortable with that.

 

6 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

But this may just be something to state that we agree to disagree.

 

But there is not much else to talk about.  If I had a range of threads buzzing, I might have given up on this a week ago! 🙂

[Gauntlet]

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Actually, if you are skilled in the use of the weapon, STR might not be (and perhaps should not be) the deciding factor in that knife fight.  I think that I would be content to see the damage each  of those opponents delivering with slashes and stabs being reasonably consistent.  The 10 or 15 STR character has options in picking up bigger weapons that do more damage - an advantage in purchasing that STR.  I am reasonably comfortable with that.

 

 

But there is not much else to talk about.  If I had a range of threads buzzing, I might have given up on this a week ago! 🙂

 

True, and also considering that this was originally about Desilification I am not sure how it got into HKA Damage.

[Doc Democracy]

18 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

True, and also considering that this was originally about Desilification I am not sure how it got into HKA Damage.

 

It is the Bushido Paradigm, as a thread progresses beyond three pages, the likelihood of it shedding any further light on the original question diminishes geometrically.

[Gauntlet]

5 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

It is the Bushido Paradigm, as a thread progresses beyond three pages, the likelihood of it shedding any further light on the original question diminishes geometrically.

 

So, moving forward, why in the heck do threads more than three pages move off to random conversations?

Edited September 26, 2023 by Gauntlet

[Doc Democracy]

5 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

So, moving forward, why in the heck do threads more than three pages move off to random conversations?

 

I think once the narrative impetus of the OP fades, there is a tendency to drift into well-worn paths of conversation.

[Gauntlet]

12 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I think once the narrative impetus of the OP fades, there is a tendency to drift into well-worn paths of conversation.

 

Please discontinue from answering so directly and informatively. How else are we gonna get this into the 10,000 posts range if we are being direct??? 

[Doc Democracy]

22 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Please discontinue from answering so directly and informatively. How else are we gonna get this into the 10,000 posts range if we are being direct??? 

 

Well, personally, I thought that conversations were more original when we were talking 1st edition on Usenet...

Edited September 26, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[Hugh Neilson]

4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

That's why I always utilized the double rule. You can only double a HKA, so that knife at 1/2d6 can only do a maximum of 1d6+1. And I was only using a Troll to show a major difference. What about the character with a 15 STR or a 10 STR, they still easily could be using a knife but still only doing as much damage as that weak halfling. Plus, considering how reduced many FH characters can be, they can't afford to purchase a whole bunch of additional damage bonuses, they need it for skills.

 

But this may just be something to state that we agree to disagree.

 

With that in mind, I'll move the chain back to its initial distractor...

 

My proposal is not to remove STR adds from Heroic games. It is to shift that "extra dice requiring STR" to be a function of the specific HKA, just like a spear does not become Armor Piercing because it is pointy, but because it is purchased as armor piercing.

 

That knife would be constructed as 1/2d6 KA, No range (STR min to get that 1/2d6 without penalty) + 1/2d6 KA, No range, requires 5 additional STR per additional DC.

 

So the weak halfling is still doing less damage than the average human, who does less damage than that above-average human. Just the same as it always has.

 

And the damage caps out at about that above-average human level, because the knife build has 2 extra DCs requiring STR, so no matter how strong you are, you can't access any more HKA DCs - the knife doesn't have any more HKA DCs.

 

But you could do a Combined Attack with the knife and your raw STR, which that Troll would logically do, inflicting 1d6+1 KA with the knife and 7d6 Normal from its raw STR - so the massively strong 35 STR Troll will do more damage with a strike than that 15 STR human.

 

For a Supers character, if they want a 1d6+1 KA, they buy a 1d6+1 KA, No Range.  If they want it to have a STR minimum (how come the Super's sword never has an STR min, only an adder?), they take a limitation. If they want it to do more damage from STR, then they buy more DCs limited to require STR (may not be much of a limitation if their STR maxes it, but I'd at least give -1/4 since they can be drained - and they can expect it will happen when they take the limitation).  If they only want the +6DCs from 30 STR, great - don't put the STR Min on there.

 

Just as you saying "I believe STR should add" need not mean "I think Grond should do 9 1/2d6 KA with a knife",  my saying "I believe more KA DCs for extra STR should be paid for" does not mean "I think fantasy weapons should not have added damage for STR". We both seem to agree that verisimilitude suggests that STR augment the damage from those weapons. Where we seem to disagree is whether that verisimilitude should be a mechanic provided due to SFX, or a mechanic paid for because the SFX require that mechanic.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Gauntlet]

14 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

That knife would be constructed as 1/2d6 KA, No range (STR min to get that 1/2d6 without penalty) + 1/2d6 KA, No range, requires 5 additional STR per additional DC.

 

This seems more like how complicated can we get...

 

14 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

For a Supers character, if they want a 1d6+1 KA, they buy a 1d6+1 KA, No Range.  If they want it to have a STR minimum (how come the Super's sword never has an STR min, only an adder?), they take a limitation. If they want it to do more damage from STR, then they buy more DCs limited to require STR (may not be much of a limitation if their STR maxes it, but I'd at least give -1/4 since they can be drained - and they can expect it will happen when they take the limitation).  If they only want the +6DCs from 30 STR, great - don't put the STR Min on there.

 

In the case of Superheroic characters, they don't need to purchase STR Min because they pay points and END for the HKA.

 

14 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Just as you saying "I believe STR should add" need not mean "I think Grond should do 9 1/2d6 KA with a knife",  my saying "I believe more KA DCs for extra STR should be paid for" does not mean "I think fantasy weapons should not have added damage for STR". We both seem to agree that verisimilitude suggests that STR augment the damage from those weapons. Where we seem to disagree is whether that verisimilitude should be a mechanic provided due to SFX, or a mechanic paid for because the SFX require that mechanic.

 

I never said that Grond should do 9-1/2d6 HKA damage with a knife. I stated that it should only allow doubling. So that 1/2d6 HKA Dagger can only do a maximum of 1d6+1. To be able to get a HKA attack up to 9-1/2d6 the starting weapon would have to be at least 4-1/2d6 HKA.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Gauntlet

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

This seems more like how complicated can we get...

 

In play, it seems like exactly what I have to do now.  Do I meet the STR min?  If yes, start with base DC and full OCV.  If no, subtract 1 OCV and 1 DC for every 5 STR (or fraction thereof) short.

 

If STR - STR MIn is 5 or more, add 1 DC for 5, and one more DC for every additional 5, capping at doubling the DCs.

 

How is that different from the current play experience?

 

I note that:

 

Quote

The values for STR Minimum are based on the assumption that the average character has around STR 10-13 and the average weapon a STR Minimum of about 10. If that’s not the case in your campaign, or you want to emphasize a particular approach to the creation and use of weapons in the HERO System, you might prefer to adjust the values accordingly.

 

I am not sure I have ever seen a fantasy game where the average character has 10-13 STR (especially those using melee weapons), but who cares when the equipment is purchased for cash instead of CP?

 

When I look at the weapons on p 204 6e V2, specifically their Active and Real costs, I realize pretty quickly that these builds are already quite complicated.  I also realize how seldom they have any actual impact on the game. I am also reminded that most have 1 meter of Stretching built in.

 

Finally, I will note that the changes to adding damage, including the potential removal of the doubling rule, was intended to simplify those rules.  Not sure we got there...

 

3 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

In the case of Superheroic characters, they don't need to purchase STR Min because they pay points and END for the HKA.

 

In Supers, the STR Min is still a limitation. We just don't use it.  Maybe we should.  4d6 HKA, STR Min 20 (-1), Can't Add Damage (-1/2) drops that KA down to 24 points, cheaper than a 2d6 HKA, even if the character has a 30 STR.  But that's why STR Min shouldn't be used in a Supers game.

 

3 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

I never said that Grond should do 9-1/2d6 HKA damage with a knife. I stated that it should only allow doubling. So that 1/2d6 HKA Dagger can only do a maximum of 1d6+1. To be able to get a HKA attack up to 9-1/2d6 the starting weapon would have to be at least 4-1/2d6 HKA.

As I said, "allow STR adds" does not have to mean "allow unlimited STR adds". I'm not sure anyone is suggesting unlimited adds, although that's not a lot cheaper than STR and KA in a Multipower.

 

hmmm...

 

15 STR (5 points)

 

75 Multipower Pool

7  f  +75 STR

7  f  5d6 HKA

 

Total cost 94 points.

 

A bit more than 90 STR (80) and a 1 pip HKA (5).

 

45 STR (35 points)

 

45 Multipower Pool

4  f  +45 STR

4  f  3d6 HKA

 

88 points.  That's a lot closer.  And the HKA can be combined with a 9d6 STR strike. So, is 8 points the fair price for adding a 6d6 HKA to Grond's repertoire? I guess it must be, because the doubling rules are a reasonable compromise, right? 

 

"Grond can use his mighty fists to strike powerful blows (Normal; STR slot), or to rend his targets (Killing; HKA slot)."

Edited September 26, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Duke Bushido]

Both goals are achievable.

 

The STR bonus can be capped at at effectively doubling the HKA attack.  At one time (for a long run), it was.  I _believe_ (but may be misremembering) that 6e still retains the idea in print as one of the published "optional rules."

 

HKA can be built to deny an STR bonus entirely: "Strength does not add" is an officially published power modifier; how the case requires anyone to leave publisher-approved country and travel into in the Hinterlands of House Rules.

 

What you _cannot_ have is some way to make the points work out identically per DC with additional costs paid only by the guy who buys dice of HKA.  You (this would be the American conversational third-party "you," of course; I am not looking at anyone.  In fact, I am looking mostly at my ceiling in bouts of frustration with my autocorrect) cannot have that.  You cannot have that becauae every single power doubles as at least two things.  If it didn't, it would be a characteristic.

 

Desolid is a movement and a defense.  Energy blast is damage and the ability to affect things at a distance.  Granted, rather lumited interaction options, but you get where this is going:  powers do things.  Some do things that characteristics also do; some so things characteristics can't.  Aomw do both.  

 

Problem is we measure their worth directly in either dice, die roll modifiers, or direct addition /subtraction on some points cost per number adjusted scale:  three points od this gets you the ability to reduce two points of damage.  Dive points of this gets you the power to inflict _up to_ six points of this (minus any adjustments your opponent bought), but possibly only one point minus adjustments.  If the total is less than zero, the extra adjuatment is wasted (six points of defense against four points of damage doesnt let you heal back two points, after all).

 

And there is absolutely no way to reconcile any of that, except possibly removing the dice altogether and playing Magic or Pokemon or some other CCG, and frankly, I am certain that I will get thousands of years of that once I get to Hell, so I am not about to do it here in the realm of mortals.

 

I am not a particularly insightful person; I am not even an especially intelligent one, but it _kills_ me to see people that I so consider to be exceptional still cling to the nonsensical idea that there is a way to include precise measurements, sliding scales, specified costs, amd random number generators all mixed together and somehow still have everything work out perfectly to the point cost every single time.

 

And even if you could somehow do just that, you have to do it all over again each time the situation changes:

 

I would trade my 30d6 of electrblast for enough points of life support to survive the 150 degree heat of this death trap!   

 

Ha!  My 40 points of Desolid lets me slip right out of it!

 

So does my 2" of teleport.

 

Oh crap; it isnt fair, because all,thise things didn't cost the same in this instance, and some of them have differeing secondary applications!

 

Recalculate the prices!  Everything is down to one point each- intelligence, ego, dex-  and _somehow_ some of them are still too cheap!

 

 

Honestly, my friends:

 

It's lunacy to continue to believe it is possible in any way other than demonstrated in this tongue-in-cheek extrapolation:

 

Everything costs 1 pt.  Everything does 1 pt.  Want an energy blast?  It costs 1 pt per point of damage you want it to do.  We don't track body and STUN separately anymore: that leads to disputes over which represents a better cost / benefit deal.  We go back to hit points.

 

Defenses are 1 pt for 1 pt of defense.  Your defense points deduct directly from your attacker's damage points.  Abolish the speed characteristic, because there may be an advantageous way to spend points there: for the cost of one point of speed, one character could have an additional,action denied to other characters, which might prove to be a cost-effective expenditure, as it could be an attack, a movement, both, or even a recovery!

 

Getting did of the option to "take a recovery" can help remove a lot od the temptation to buy extra speed anyway, which can only lead us closer to the path of perfect equality for points spent.

 

 

Eventually, we both have the same number of checkers, all with the same movement options, and the same attack options.  The goal is to remove all of your opponent's checkers by capture.

 

 

Perfect points balance.

 

We keep saying "you get what you pay for," and we need to stop _right there_.  You get what you pay for.  There is nothing in the system that prevents someone else from getring what he paid for.  As long as we buy in six different kinds of lots, though, there will always be a way for someone to get more while paying the same.  

 

This is the game That introduced power modifiers (with one type of costing) and then Adders (with another type of costing) _specifically to let you squeeze out a bit more of what_ you want by sacrificing what you want a bit less--  that is to say: the huge attraction to this game is _not_, amd has _never been_ "you get what you pay for," but in fact has always been "the greater your mastery, the more you can get."  The big draw of the HERO System is specifically learning how to get the bigger half.

 

 

Now fess up, and let go of the delusion.

 

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

While I find "perfect balance" elusive, when you can buy the exact same mechanical effect in multiple different ways, for multiple different costs, that is clearly "not balanced" in my view.

[Duke Bushido]

And you are not wrong, Sir.

 

But as long as there is more than one mechanic- particularly if one is a random number generator and the other are not, balance will not be attainable.

 

Unless there is a movement to remove both the random number generator and the tendency for situational fluctuations making one ability more or less useful at any given moment,  any attempt at making everything equal is doomed to fail.

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

And you are not wrong, Sir.

 

But as long as there is more than one mechanic- particularly if one is a random number generator and the other are not, balance will not be attainable.

 

Unless there is a movement to remove both the random number generator and the tendency for situational fluctuations making one ability more or less useful at any given moment,  any attempt at making everything equal is doomed to fail.

 

Very true.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

And you are not wrong, Sir.

 

But as long as there is more than one mechanic- particularly if one is a random number generator and the other are not, balance will not be attainable.

 

Unless there is a movement to remove both the random number generator and the tendency for situational fluctuations making one ability more or less useful at any given moment,  any attempt at making everything equal is doomed to fail.

 

Equal can never be achieved. Equating +5 PD with breathing underwater can't be done.  But I do know that the ability to breathe underwater is situational enough that it should not cost 75 points, nor should +75 PD be reduced to a cost of 5 points.  And I know that when the exact same points spent one way generate the exact same mechanical benefits as a different spend, and gets something else as well, that is unbalanced.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Duke Bushido]

13 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I know that when the exact same points spent one way generate the exact same mechanical benefits as a different spend, and gets something else as well, that is unbalanced.

 

 

Again, you are absolutely correct.   I am saying that you can't fix it and the result still resemble this game.  _potentially_ do this, and way back when I used to play this game myself, here is how I tried:

 

you must find the basic--  well, as I actually appreciate you for your intelligence just as much as your willingness to carry a discussion, I have no doubt you will understand what I mean when I say "effect level"  of everything.

 

So you are looking for the base components of Mind Control or a step up the size chart- whatever.

 

Take the given list of characteristics, skills, powers, talents, and what-note, then start chopping out the individual elements of each of those things and subdivide the cost.  Eventually you will reach a point where nothing else can be broken out.  Each of these elements is assigned a cost of 1 point.

 

Take That lengthy list of items from the book- talents, characteristics, skills (good luck with that one, since the 4e-style roll-your-own-skills system makes that infinite, a set which slows for infinite overlap, and shoots the whole experiment in the foot right off the bat) and the elements you have pulled from each  and compare the individual elements of each item to the individual elements of everything else.

 

At any point that you encounter a duplicate element, erase the duplicate and add the cost together.  Why?  Because that element applies to two sifferent things: it has twice the potential utility.  At this point, that element is reclassed as a stand-alone building block. 

 

Even Odin knows how often we play this game with STR, so let's use that real quick:

 

It breaks into (depending on edition): lift

Throw

Carry

Deliver damage

Part of many figured characteristics. For editions with figured stats, list each time STR is used as a separate element under that characteristic.  If 1/2 of STR is used, then that element will cost as 1/2 a point under that characteristic.

 

So the cost of STR is either nothing (as it doesnt exist; it has been reduced to its elements) _or_ the total cost of each of it's sub-elements plus it's cost as a sub element of the various figureds.

 

If you are not allocating any sub elements to STR itself, then it only costs the total of its costs as a sub-element of other characteristics.

 

If you are not using figureds, then STR gets even cheaper, because it is free, because it doesn't exist, and you must buy each of its sub-elements individually, based on the totally balanced price of how much utility potential that element has, which is, of course, determined by the number of times it appears as a sub-element elsewhere.

 

So "deals damage" would appear under STR, HA, EB, HKA, RKA, Ego Attack, Telekinesis, and probably fifteen others I am not going to thumb type.  The final base orive for Deal Damage comes in at let's say 23 points for a die.

 

Problematically, Killing Attack will have to away completely, as it is "deals damage" with special rules.  "Killing" can still be a modifier if you want to keep the special rules for it.  The multiplier, if you want to keep it, becomes an adder, or possibly just another purchaseable element.

 

 

Then there is the  "adds to dice pool" mechanic, which can be found under the bulk of mental powers, Flash, Entangle, and other places.

 

Doing STR damage is pretty expensive,  but now it is balanced.  There is nothing to "add" to the damage, because you are buying the damage from the ground up.

 

It costs _exactly_ the same as Hand-to-Hand Attack, and Energy Blast is a simple matter of applying the  "ranged" modifier to your "do damage" build.  Make it Killing, once you decide what the cost of that should be. 

 

I cannot speak on 6e, but in the early editions, STR contributed to Leaping (sub-element: move self),  but now you will have to buy all leaping from zero, as with all other movements.

 

Power Frameworks will have to go, as they are a way to get the same effect for less than someone else spends or a different mechanic to get the same effect (same powers for less cost).

 

While I already said Skills kind of mess things up, they still have to be addressed.  Skill Levels go immediately.  I can increase a skill per its individual rules (which will have to be changed so they all cost identically) or adjust groups of skills at a discount with Skill Levels, and of course, the combat skill levels are a non-starter, as they are a means of achieving CV or damage, and we can by both CV and Deal Damage. 

 

Skills should be built from the ground up: buy your roll up from 1- (or 3-; it seems reasonable what with 3d6, but at some point, some savvy mathematician may find a way to make that initial 1 for 3 beneficial.

 

Then you have to adress skill progression:  is it more equal (cost v benefit) to pay 1 point for each plys 1 to the roll, or should costing be based on the increase to success percentages?  I suspect that the most fair thing here is to charge 1 of for each percentage increase, with rolls above 18 paying the 18 cost for each point above 17.  Stupid pricey, but the most equal, most impossible-to- "abuse" method I could ever come up with.

 

But once you start considering percentage-based costs, other things get screwy, too: the attack roll leaps to mind, since CV is essentially a plus-one progression against your Attack Skill and DCV is a -1 against your opponent's Attack Skill.

 

Which takes us to PSLs and so on, so let's just move away from all of that for now.

 

The modifiers become problematic unless we are keeping decimals (and given that the difference between a 17- and an 18- is a half a point, we were heades that in direction anyway.  Don't decide to just move a decimal and bring everything back to whole numbers, because then power-heavy characters are paying ten times as much for a particular thing that might be avoided by a non-power construct of 1/10 the value, and someone somewhere will proclaim since the expensive build is effectively nullified, he did not get what he paid for given the scale of the points difference.

 

Anyway,I have nodded off enough during this.  I may pick it back up, but I am sure you can see where rhis goes.  Is it more fair?  Yes.  Is it more expensive?  Only if you want things like skills and CV.  Does it eliminate characteristics?  Only the traditional ones found in most RPGs.  Endurance stays to fuel "doing stuff."  Hit points are re-introduced to prevent less-expensive builds from being unfairly effective in combat (does no BODY still drops prices and takes out 90 percent of your opponents).

 

I may pick this up later, but at the end of the day, for the price of tenfold complexity, you can get closer to balance.  You still dont really get there, because someone will always have a better insight into clever use of modifiers (and capping them restricts potential balance) and if you are doing anything beyond wargaming in an open arena, situational shifts will make some builds more effective, 

 

But sure: you can get closer to balance.  You cant get there, at least not with anything resembling HERO at the and, and it may take six weeks to make a character, and we have to adress how points are acquired, because with a Blast costing 23 points per die and skills costing several hundred, traditional EP systems will show heavy favoritism, but is it worth it?

 

Not even remotely.

 

 

[unclevlad]

19 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

While I find "perfect balance" elusive, when you can buy the exact same mechanical effect in multiple different ways, for multiple different costs, that is clearly "not balanced" in my view.

 

15 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

And I know that when the exact same points spent one way generate the exact same mechanical benefits as a different spend, and gets something else as well, that is unbalanced.

 

Not when one is looking at broader implications, or when removing the "additional benefit" makes no sense from another perspective.  Or, it creates a severe dissonance within the rules.  Giving "something for nothing" may be the best possible of a number of flawed options.

 

Balance is important...but so is (relative) simplicity and consistency.  So is flexibility.  

 

Another point:  the core approach to the system is that basic power concepts have tuning knobs called adders, advantages, and limitations.  These have complex interactions that destroy any possible notion that every path to a given effect is going to have the same cost for the same benefits.  It cannot be the case.  20 points with a +1/2 advantage and -1 limitation is not the same as 30 points with a -1/2 limitation, even when the advantage and other -1/2 of the limitation create effectively identical powers.  Note that this is exacerbated by the computational methods Hero uses (especially multi-stage rounding and very coarse granularity)...but it'll hold true no matter what.  The issues will shift, not disappear.

 

The points about the rounding and granularity also bring up a fundamental aspect:  this has to be usable by people.  In computer gaming, what we call OCV can be *extremely* messy.  This is how Base Attack Rating is derived, from Wizardry 8:

BAR SINGLE WEAPON = Floor( Floor(( CC_RC + 2 * WPN ) / 3 ) * 2 + Floor(DEX/2) + SUM(ProfessionLvLUpMul * Lvl) ) / 3) + 60

 

CC/RC are close or ranged combat generally;  WPN is your skill with a particular weapon class (sword, axe, etc.)  The ProfessionLvlUp is based on your character class, it's the broad measure about how good that class is.

 

Oh, and CC/RC and WPN improve dynamically in Wiz 8, so you can't simply sit down and grind out the numbers in advance of a session.  

 

So we can't readily, for example, switch to advantages or limitations measured in tenths, and carry over all the fractional values, rounding only at the end.  Many people don't like math, and don't do well at it.  Hero's approach opens up some notorious loopholes...END breakpoints is a big one...but it's mostly manageable, with relatively minimal assistance.  We get used to the common levels...1/4, 1/2, 1 advantage or limit, those are easy.  +0.3, +0.7, -0.4...it's not any harder but we won't see any specific ones enough to make them reflexive.