Argument Concerning Desolification

[Grailknight]

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

This depends a lot on what one considers a “complete fix” to encompass.  My “complete fix” encompasses only killing attacks.  It would include the following:

 

 

 

·         One Killing Attack power, which simply renames “RKA” to “KA”.

 

 

 

·         Example powers would include Claws (KA, No Range), “Sword” (1d6 + 1 KA No Range + 1d6 + 1 KA, No Range, STR Minimum).  Maybe even a “Rapier” (1d6 + 1 KA No Range + 1d6 + 1 KA, No Range, DEX minimum). Perhaps a “Cutting Words” spell that has a PRE minimum.

 

 

 

·         STR Minimum would become Characteristic Minimum. Let’s break that out below.

 

 

 

·         The Weapons Chart would include numerous uses of Characteristic Minimum limited KAs, HAs, etc. It would include some ranged weapons (why do we not shriek about the disconnect of being unable to have a Strength Bow like d20?) and some weapons linked to characteristics other than STR (what?  There’s no Weapon Finesse in Fantasy Hero?).  Genre books could expand on this with weapons like Doc’s Ego Whip, more powerful with EGO or an Illusion spell that becomes more powerful for high INT characters better able to craft a convincing illusion.

 

 

 

6e V2 p 199  would form the basis (but it would move to the same place all the other Limitations are presented).  The limitation would apply based on the STR (or other characteristic) required to get the full DCs from the power. For example, my partially limited Sword above is a Champions sword. It would have a 20 STR minimum applied to the limited portion of the power.  For every 5 STR below 20, it would suffer -1 OCV and -1 DC.  This would be a -1 limitation.  That sounds pretty high, unless one considers the alternatives of:

 

 

 

·         Current rules – just take more of the characteristic since it’s effectively free.

 

·         Put the characteristic and the power in a Multipower.

 

·         Current rules – you get the same limitation AND the potential to double the damage output.

 

 

 

The characteristic dedicated to the CHAR Min could be applied to only one ability with that limitation per phase.  So, if you have a Rapier in your right hand and a dagger in your left, you need to dedicate STR to both in order to maximize their damage, and that STR cannot also be used for an STR strike.

 

 

 

The limitation would be made more granular. It would need a “no OCV penalty” option to simulate the current STR minimum (so most weapons would limit some dice with an OCV penalty and others with none).  It might vary with the characteristic (STR costs 1 point; the limitation could be higher for characteristics that cost 2 points).  It would vary by working in different increments – every 3 STR, or every 7 INT, for example. It could be possible to pick the best of 2 (or more) characteristics, or be stuck with the worst. Some of these could be flagged as “at the GM’s Option” rules.

 

 

 

This is a “KA only” fix, except that the “Char Min” could apply to any attack.  It could even apply to a Hand Attack (which is just extra STR with a limitation, so this would likely only be done for weapons purchased for cash instead of CP). GMs could certainly outlaw the limitation in Supers games. It’s intended for games where purchased equipment would often be used by characters lacking the characteristics to maximize the weapon’s DCs.

 

 

 

It could be embedded in the weapons without presenting the limitations. It could be “heroic only” – in games where gear is purchased in CP, gear is generally customized for the character, so they would virtually never lack the characteristic required to fully benefit from the gear. This would be no different than the 1 – 3 Stun Multiple that typically applies in Superheroic versus the hit location table that normally applies in Heroic.

 

 

 

A significant change? Sure – we have 6 editions and over 40 years of history.  Would it have felt so significant if we had always had one KA power, and adapted to mechanics that enhanced claws and swords for STR in other ways over those years?  Probably not.

 

 

 

Removal of COM and Figureds, a 1d3 Stun Multiple, Adjustment Powers becoming ranged by default (and Aid costing END), implementation of the doubling rule way back in 2e (see those Enemies books), streamlining RDEF over the years and the removal of “plus EGO/5” when you bought mental defense felt really significant too.  We take Combat Luck for granted now, but many of us had different fixes to avoid agile, non-bulletproof heroes from dying every time a KA showed up. That was pretty revolutionary, and still attracts its detractors.

 

 

 

Part of that challenge is that Hero chose reverse-compatibility over the d20 model of “that was last edition – here is the brand-new game we’re calling X+1 Edition”.

 

 

 

If I were trying to fix Hand Attack, it would probably be a Limited STR fix, incorporating Martial Arts DCs, the ability to retain non-direct damage DCs (like Grab and Escape) and maybe even the “floating DCs” conundrum of Deadly Blow and its cousins.  That would be a separate project.

 

A lot of words that don't address the main problem of why your solution is incomplete. You do an excellent job of finding balance in the rules, but you cannot express it in a manner that makes me accept that STR does not add to HTH Combat. I told you that if you could, I'd switch my position and you didn't even try.

.

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

 

Doubling is simply a "abuse is OK but only some abuse is OK". As an alternative, we could have unlimited adders of +1 DC HKA per 10 STR so that not buying the STR to maximize the adder isn't automatically stupid.

 

That's a glass is half empty way of looking at a functioning compromise.  It's also incorrect.  Doubling is a limit to the extreme abuse that can occur without it but not a perfect solution. Not buying matching STR is a choice that can be made because the concept doesn't call for it, not an unholy heresy against the gaming gods.

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

"It's not an RKA if it has no range" seems as easy a cognitive disconnect to fall into.  "No STR or Movement Addition" is part of the core rules (6e v1 p 242), with the example of a lightsaber (excuse me, laser sword). Partially limited powers are defined as part of the core rules. If STR did not add to KAs, we would not have the issue at all.

 

Not nearly as big a disconnect as STR not affecting HTH combat. The fact that the limitation is in the rules but is not the default should be an indicator of something.

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Ratcheting my STR up from 10 to 30 (to take advantage of the free STR since I want that 4d6 KA anyway; taking a 4d6 RKA no Range to shave 10 points off the concept; using a multipower to trade off STR and HKA; or partially limiting my HKA to avoid paying for the ability to add STR I don't have (we're not supposed to pay for things with no significant in-game benefit, remember) can all be viewed as cheesy.  The real problem, however, is that various different costs for buying (other than the MP) the exact same game mechanics is a poor approach.  That's why rDEF evolved from different costs to various "1 CP makes 2 defense resistant" models.

 

As long as the choices have the same cost, what's the problem? Why do you insist that any nonoptimized build is badwrongfun even if it's what the player wants? What about a player who wants to start with a smaller HKA and wants to buy it up with XP?  Or one that starts with an HKA as a slot in Multipower and only needs 1 or 2 XP to bring it up the campaign standard without increasing STR?

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

If it is not associated with STR in any way, why would it enhance, or be enhanced by, STR? Brass knuckles or steel-hard fists add normal damage from STR. They do not provide anything that buying more STR would not provide. That's a Hand Attack.  Conversion of STR to energy damage is a +0 advantage, and making STR 0 BOD is a -0 limitation. Nothing that STR could not have done anyway.  Tacking on advantages makes it a little more challenging, and the system has grappled with various means of addressing that over the years. If you have a more elegant solution than pro rating it down, I'm open to hearing it. But it's not related to the completely separate mechanic of Killing Damage.

 

Again, you use your definition to debate my point. In my version of HA it still adds STR just as an HKA does. It's just normal damage instead of killing. It's a needed power for defining Normal damage weapons but it's application outside of Heroic games is limited.

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

I'm pretty challenging to offend.  Perhaps we simply replace my comment with"Try encountering a GM who opens 6e V1 to page 366, reads the rules for partially limited powers and interprets it in a non-disingenuous manner."  Now we're both using the same term.

 

So, no apology and a sarcastic use of the word you found offensive in another backhanded insult. No problem. I'll still stay civil even if you felt the need to get one last dig in.

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

The same logic applies if the attack is 15d6.  Let's make it a 2d6 Fire RKA flamethrower - if the "flies  through the blazing sun" character wants any defenses at all against that attack, she needs resistant defenses.  If she bought none, she takes all of the STUN and BOD.  The "Free HKA if you buy STR" (or "may as well take the free STR - I'm buying the campaign limit HKA") model is just as much a sacrifice of balance for "common sense says". 

 

 So certain concepts should get things for free then? Maybe you should just tell that player that that star surfing character doesn't fit within the constraints of the campaign because it would be too expensive to buy.

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Buying 4d6 HKA, no STR Add and buying 2d6 HKA to allow your 30 STR to add 2d6 are both valid options to achieve the exact same result.  Buying 4d6 RKA no range is almost the exact same result.  When the system presents three mechanical ways to get the exact same result, it suggests that all three are valid.  The Laser Sword example does not mention tying the option to the character's STR.  Voltaic Touch (6e v1 p 389) does not suggest this option be denied to a character with low STR.

 

 

Except that metarule of the system clearly states that only the more expensive options are valid for use. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Grailknight

[dmjalund]

STR and HKA (Phys) share an overarching special affect "Physical" this contains the everyday experience that if you apply STR to a sharp object it will do more damage. taking that away may be more 'balanced' but costs verisimilitude

 

[Doc Democracy]

7 hours ago, dmjalund said:

STR and HKA (Phys) share an overarching special affect "Physical" this contains the everyday experience that if you apply STR to a sharp object it will do more damage. taking that away may be more 'balanced' but costs verisimilitude

 

 

The system is not built on verisimilitude.  The essence of any build question that people come to the boards with is, "describe what you want to happen, then buy the game effects that happen in game".  Verisimilitude is not built in.

 

I can buy Flash, no range, to simulate hitting someone so hard they briefly lose their ability to see/hear.  Common sense says the stronger they are the more effective this should be.

 

I can buy Blast (Phys), to simulate throwing rocks, or other weapons. Common sense says the stronger you are, the more damage these should do.

 

I can buy RKA as above.

 

I can buy Tunnelling, using my immense strength to tear through walls etc.  Surely as I increase my STR that should also increase, for the sake of verisimilitude.

 

Ultimately, STR adds in these ways for historic reasons, possibly even because other games did it and it "made sense" to do it.  It is however an orphan mechanic that is not there to accomplish something that could not be done (I would love an orphan mechanic that facilitated possession). 

 

It even works against the maxim being used to argue for it, the one saying the most expensive way to accomplish an outcome is the valid way (something I don't 100% buy into). As the most expensive way to get 30 STR and 4D6 HKA is to buy them separately. 

 

My key argument is that we do not do this anywhere else it would make sense.  We do not advantage any other characteristics to increase the effectiveness of defences, movement, or anything else: only for STR.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

12 hours ago, Grailknight said:

A lot of words that don't address the main problem of why your solution is incplete. You do an excellent job of finding balance in the rules, but you cannot express it in a manner that makes me accept that STR does not add to HTH Combat. I told you that if you could, I'd switch my position and you didn't even try.

 

You asked for a fix.  To me, a fix is mechanical. The cognitive dissonance is part of game philosophy.  That's more linked to the Hero Maxim that you get what you pay for and pay for what you get, and that mechanics are separate from SFX. Doc nails it, but there is a simple answer that was clarified in 4e.  Depending on who one believes, it was RAI from 1e.

 

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

The system is not built on verisimilitude.  The essence of any build question that people come to the boards with is, "describe what you want to happen, then buy the game effects that happen in game".  Verisimilitude is not built in.

 

I can buy Flash, no range, to simulate hitting someone so hard they briefly lose their ability to see/hear.  Common sense says the stronger they are the more effective this should be.

 

I can buy Blast (Phys), to simulate throwing rocks, or other weapons. Common sense says the stronger you are, the more damage these should do.

 

I can buy RKA as above.

 

I can buy Tunnelling, using my immense strength to tear through walls etc.  Surely as I increase my STR that should also increase, for the sake of verisimilitude.

 

Ultimately, STR adds in these ways for historic reasons, possibly even because other games did it and it "made sense" to do it.  It is however an orphan mechanic that is not there to accomplish something that could not be done (I would love an orphan mechanic that facilitated possession). 

 

It even works against the maxim being used to argue for it, the one saying the most expensive way to accomplish an outcome is the valid way (something I don't 100% buy into). As the most expensive way to get 30 STR and 4D6 HKA is to buy them separately. 

 

My key argument is that we do not do this anywhere else it would make sense.  We do not advantage any other characteristics to increase the effectiveness of defences, movement, or anything else: only for STR.

 

There is also the dissonance which arises from comparing to d20.  Yet many gamers express a problem with STR, rather than DEX, improving the chance of hitting in melee, and with armor making the target harder to hit instead of harder to damage.  And the doubling cap also carries cognitive dissonance and d20 deviation.

 

The simple answer to cognitive dissonance in this regard is "Combined Attack".  If you have a 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA, you can currently combine a 4d6 HKA and a 6d6 Strike.  Remove HKA boosts from STR, and you get what you paid for from each element - 2d6 HKA + 6d6 Strike combined attack.  That means that the 10 STR, 3d6+1 HKA character gets what he paid for (3d6+1 HKA and 2d6 Strike combined attack) as does Matterhorn (10d6 Strike + 1/2d6 AP KA) and Grond with a hatpin (18d6 Strike + 1 pip HKA). The d20 system adds an STR add to your damage.  The Hero System permits combination of the two attacks.  In both cases, the high STR character can do more damage than the low STR character.

 

12 hours ago, Grailknight said:

That's a glass is half empty way of looking at a functioning compromise.  It's also incorrect.  Doubling is a limit to the extreme abuse that can occur without it but not a perfect solution. Not buying matching STR is a choice that can be made because the concept doesn't call for it, not an unholy heresy against the gaming gods.

 

One might say that rejecting a balanced fix consistent with Hero maxims because "cognitive dissonance" is a half empty way of looking at a functional fix to an imbalance.

 

12 hours ago, Grailknight said:

As long as the choices have the same cost, what's the problem? Why do you insist that any nonoptimized build is badwrongfun even if it's what the player wants? What about a player who wants to start with a smaller HKA and wants to buy it up with XP?  Or one that starts with an HKA as a slot in Multipower and only needs 1 or 2 XP to bring it up the campaign standard without increasing STR?

 

If choices have the same cost but different benefits, this is a clear and objective balance problem.  It moves us from the Hero maxim of "get what you pay for and pay for what you get" to "pore the rules and splatbooks to find the most effective character optimization choices - don't fall into character traps - model of the d20 system.  I find very few players who will express the desire to play the sub-optimal comic relief sidekick. Many will accept a sub-optimal character in the interests of achieving their character concept. To me, a game which markets playing any concept you can imagine should strive to make all of those concepts playable, not require players of some concepts to be less effective in-game.

 

12 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Again, you use your definition to debate my point. In my version of HA it still adds STR just as an HKA does. It's just normal damage instead of killing. It's a needed power for defining Normal damage weapons but it's application outside of Heroic games is limited.

 

Daredevil uses a billy club.  DCAU Batman uses electric brass knuckles.  That's two micro examples of HA in a superheroic setting. Captain America's shield is an HA. Green Arrow strikes with his bow. Robotman has metal fists. So does Colossus.  Hand Attack - STR damage providing no other elements of STR - is a necessary construction in all games. It needs to be a "power" only in the sense that we define a characteristic with a limitation as a "power".  It is one element of STR, like Lightning Reflexes is one element of DEX.  As it provides only a portion of STR, it should cost less than STR.

 

Your approach causes me cognitive dissonance. Persuade me that doing more damage with STR is not a limited form of STR.  And tell me how to use your system to also enhance Disarm, Grab, etc. without all the benefits of STR, and without Martial Arts.

 

12 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Except that metarule of the system clearly states that only the more expensive options are valid for use. 

 

That metarule is mis-applied routinely. For a character with 30 STR, a 2d6 HKA costs 30 points, but a 4d6 HKA (no STR Add) or a 4d6 RKA (no range) each cost 40.  Should the more expensive build be required?

 

Try building a mental attack using Blast and advantages - you will pay much more than 10 points per 1d6.

 

That rule means "finding a super-cheap mechanic to achieve a highly effective result is very clever, but should be denied in the interest of balance", not "we must seek out the most expensive possible way to buy the effect".

 

11 hours ago, dmjalund said:

STR and HKA (Phys) share an overarching special affect "Physical" this contains the everyday experience that if you apply STR to a sharp object it will do more damage. taking that away may be more 'balanced' but costs verisimilitude

 

Why should this be the one and only exception from the separation of mechanics and special effects, and the maxim "you get what you pay for and pay for what you get" that defines Hero.  1 pip HKA + 90 STR seems much more consistent with your statement when used as a Combined Attack than when used as a 1/2d6 HKA.  Quick - hand Grond a thumbtack - as long as he strikes with that, we're safe!"

[Grailknight]

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

The system is not built on verisimilitude.  The essence of any build question that people come to the boards with is, "describe what you want to happen, then buy the game effects that happen in game".  Verisimilitude is not built in.

 

I can buy Flash, no range, to simulate hitting someone so hard they briefly lose their ability to see/hear.  Common sense says the stronger they are the more effective this should be.

 

I can buy Blast (Phys), to simulate throwing rocks, or other weapons. Common sense says the stronger you are, the more damage these should do.

 

I can buy RKA as above.

 

I can buy Tunnelling, using my immense strength to tear through walls etc.  Surely as I increase my STR that should also increase, for the sake of verisimilitude.

 

Those are just cases of defining your SFX to a concept where those powers are applications of your STR. I can just as easily make a character who bases their Flash on DEX/SPD that hits so often you're disoriented or INT that uses their knowledge of anatomy to hit nerve clusters similar to acupuncture. Can those characters improve those other abilities without improving their STR (or DEX or INT ...) or will you require both to be raised proportionally?

 

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Ultimately, STR adds in these ways for historic reasons, possibly even because other games did it and it "made sense" to do it.  It is however an orphan mechanic that is not there to accomplish something that could not be done (I would love an orphan mechanic that facilitated possession). 

 

I agree that it's that way for the reasons you mention. And yes, STR adds to HA and HKA and no other powers in HERO have a characteristic add. But please stop with this idea that they are the only orphan mechanics in HERO.

 

Every power in HERO is an orphan mechanic. 

 

Blast works differently from Flash which works differently from Entangle and so on and so on. We don't notice because we've played for so long that these things are second nature to us. It took a new player who was a GM of some other games to make this connection for me.

 

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

It even works against the maxim being used to argue for it, the one saying the most expensive way to accomplish an outcome is the valid way (something I don't 100% buy into). As the most expensive way to get 30 STR and 4D6 HKA is to buy them separately. 

 

My key argument is that we do not do this anywhere else it would make sense.  We do not advantage any other characteristics to increase the effectiveness of defences, movement, or anything else: only for STR.

 

Doc

 

We don't do it anywhere else because there are no written examples anywhere in the game. I'd have no objections to adding those options in an APG type book. Adding those make more sense that trying to disconnect STR. Of course, you'd need to add a method to stop the more abusive edge builds like say Doubling.

[Doc Democracy]

24 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

I agree that it's that way for the reasons you mention. And yes, STR adds to HA and HKA and no other powers in HERO have a characteristic add. But please stop with this idea that they are the only orphan mechanics in HERO.

 

Every power in HERO is an orphan mechanic. 

 

Blast works differently from Flash which works differently from Entangle and so on and so on. We don't notice because we've played for so long that these things are second nature to us. It took a new player who was a GM of some other games to make this connection for me.

 

I think we disagree on the definition of orphan mechanic.  If we call powers a mechanic of the game, then all the powers follow pretty similar rules.  Adding to a power from a characteristic is different from buying a power.  If is the only example of such things written into the main rules, as such it is orphan from anything else.  You do not buy the addition of STR, it is baked into the system. 

I disagree that there is an equivalency between this enhancement of a power's effeect simply by buying a characteristic that does not actually have any inherent ability to do the action that it is being enhanced.  I probably confused the situation by mentioning a mechanic that facilitated possession. 

 

Even putting that aside, I citicised the orphan mechanic doing something that could not otherwise be done by the system.  Having something that works in one instance but nowhere else, for a purpose that could be accommodated within the system is the "bad thing".

30 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

We don't do it anywhere else because there are no written examples anywhere in the game. I'd have no objections to adding those options in an APG type book. Adding those make more sense that trying to disconnect STR. Of course, you'd need to add a method to stop the more abusive edge builds like say Doubling.

And I would have no problem with STR adding to HKA to be devolved into an APG type book, alongside all of the other potential options. 😉 My concern is that it is baked into the system with no other characteristics following the principle that the presence of STR adding to HKA establishes.

 

32 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Those are just cases of defining your SFX to a concept where those powers are applications of your STR. I can just as easily make a character who bases their Flash on DEX/SPD that hits so often you're disoriented or INT that uses their knowledge of anatomy to hit nerve clusters similar to acupuncture. Can those characters improve those other abilities without improving their STR (or DEX or INT ...) or will you require both to be raised proportionally?

 

That is indeed precisely my point.  And adding to HKA is just another case of "defining your SFX to a concept where those powers are applications of your STR".  I think (not quite sure I am understanding the question)  that the answer would be you can increase whatever you pay points from.  If you have a Flash then I would allow you to buy more Flash.  If you have STR, I would allow you to buy more STR.  If I was inclined to allow that Flash to be enhanced by STR (which I am not, but think that you should be considering it) then increasing either Flash or STR would lead to the increased Flash effect.

 

Doc

[dmjalund]

6 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

The system is not built on verisimilitude.

This is something that will alienate the newcomer

[Doc Democracy]

Just now, dmjalund said:

This is something that will alienate the newcomer

 

You mean this IS something that alienates newcomers?

There are SO many bits of the system that are not about verisimilitude.  A quick example might be using Flight, only touching a surface, to simulate running up a wall.  All the time people come onto the boards using powers to deliver game effects that are not the "common sense" application of the power, driven by the name of the power.

 

People that cannot separate SFX from powers find it difficult to get the most value from the character building sub-game of the system.  Lots of people bounce off it hard. Some are content for others to build for them, others wander off to other systems.

[Grailknight]

33 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I think we disagree on the definition of orphan mechanic.  If we call powers a mechanic of the game, then all the powers follow pretty similar rules.  Adding to a power from a characteristic is different from buying a power.  If is the only example of such things written into the main rules, as such it is orphan from anything else.  You do not buy the addition of STR, it is baked into the system. 

 

And in my interpretation, adding STR to HA and HKA is baked into the rules for those powers explicitly and is separate from the rules of all the other powers. We are parsing at different levels.

 

33 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

I disagree that there is an equivalency between this enhancement of a power's effeect simply by buying a characteristic that does not actually have any inherent ability to do the action that it is being enhanced.  I probably confused the situation by mentioning a mechanic that facilitated possession.

 

No, each power is its own mechanic. Possession would simply be another with its own set of rules within the framework of the game.

 

33 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Even putting that aside, I citicised the orphan mechanic doing something that could not otherwise be done by the system.  Having something that works in one instance but nowhere else, for a purpose that could be accommodated within the system is the "bad thing".

 

But as my newcomer pointed out, you can say the same of every power. It's not a bad thing each that power works differently. STR adding is just the way HA and HKA work by RAW. Other powers work other ways.

 

33 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

And I would have no problem with STR adding to HKA to be devolved into an APG type book, alongside all of the other potential options. 😉 My concern is that it is baked into the system with no other characteristics following the principle that the presence of STR adding to HKA establishes.

 

So, on this point we do agree that there' a place in the game for adding characteristics to powers. Unless we want to write a complete 7th edition though, we'll have to go with adding the non-STR options in an APG type book.

 

33 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

 

That is indeed precisely my point.  And adding to HKA is just another case of "defining your SFX to a concept where those powers are applications of your STR".  I think (not quite sure I am understanding the question)  that the answer would be you can increase whatever you pay points from.  If you have a Flash then I would allow you to buy more Flash.  If you have STR, I would allow you to buy more STR.  If I was inclined to allow that Flash to be enhanced by STR (which I am not, but think that you should be considering it) then increasing either Flash or STR would lead to the increased Flash effect.

 

Doc

 

Agreed.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Grailknight

[Gauntlet]

On 9/23/2023 at 4:22 PM, Doc Democracy said:

 

He is saying that is not the way the system works.  You do not look back at SFX like "really strong" and enhance their abilities for free.  If that is what you want, you pay the points for it.

 

Should high school jock, who can barely manage a coherent conversation (Ego 10), do as much damage with the Helm of ego whip (5D6 Mental blast), as the adept who has spent decades honing his mental power (EGO 25)?

 

It's the same question but I doubt you're giving the adept free dice of mental blast.

 

If your concept is that the giant is so strong, he gets more value using weapons, buy +HKA, only to add to weapons based on HKA.  Otherwise the giant combines his STR damage with the HKA, delivering more damage in that attack.

 

But you are paying for it, you have to pay for the STR.

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

 

But you are paying for it, you have to pay for the STR.

 

You get the benefits of having the STR by buying the STR.  Why should that purchasing get you free HKA as well??  There is already a case that STR should be 2 points per point, if you are adding in free HKA then that becomes much stronger. No?

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

So, on this point we do agree that there' a place in the game for adding characteristics to powers. Unless we want to write a complete 7th edition though, we'll have to go with adding the non-STR options in an APG type book.

 

I think that the concept of the core rules as a toolkit to create the game you want to play would/should provide guidance on doing almost anything at all (otherwise it would not be universal).  I think that if you add STR to HKA because it "makes sense" then you need to open up the potential for STR and other characteristics to add to other powers when it "makes sense".  My preference would be for this to be an addendum to the core rules rather than have one element of that approach baked in and the others not mentioned.

 

I have you pegged as the author of the next edition.  😄  you got the time and money to go for it??  

[Gauntlet]

47 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

You get the benefits of having the STR by buying the STR.  Why should that purchasing get you free HKA as well??  There is already a case that STR should be 2 points per point, if you are adding in free HKA then that becomes much stronger. No?

 

I think that the concept of the core rules as a toolkit to create the game you want to play would/should provide guidance on doing almost anything at all (otherwise it would not be universal).  I think that if you add STR to HKA because it "makes sense" then you need to open up the potential for STR and other characteristics to add to other powers when it "makes sense".  My preference would be for this to be an addendum to the core rules rather than have one element of that approach baked in and the others not mentioned.

 

I have you pegged as the author of the next edition.  😄  you got the time and money to go for it??  

 

So I take you are of the opinion that STR should only give you a lifting capacity and not damage.

 

As for not allowing STR to add to HKA, I can understand that in a Superheroic campaign (though I do not agree with it), but definitely not a heroic one such as Fantasy Hero.

 

I would be more online with increasing the cost of STR as I do believe that even in 6th edition it gives you more than it's cost. Perhaps 3 points for every two points of STR?

Edited September 25, 2023 by Gauntlet

[Doc Democracy]

5 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

So I take you are of the opinion that STR should only give you a lifting capacity and not damage.

 

Not sure how you took that from what I said.  I mean, being upfront, I would be trimming the number of characteristics, but allowing the continued existence of STR, I am content with lifting and normal damage.  Just don't see the justification for additional HKA on top of the normal damage.

 

8 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

As for not allowing STR to add to HKA, I can understand that in a Superheroic campaign (though I do not agree with it), but definitely not a heroic one such as Fantasy Hero.

 

I think that puts you in the camp of it being an option in an APG to create a game, not default for core rules.

 

What is your position on STR boosting other powers where it "makes sense", or other characteristics doing it in addition to STR?

[Gauntlet]

38 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

What is your position on STR boosting other powers where it "makes sense", or other characteristics doing it in addition to STR?

 

I think we need to go the other way. I agree that perhaps Ego attacks should have a bonus based on your EGO. I think what we maybe should be increasing what other things do rather than just reducing them.

 

As for OCV and DCV along with OMCV and DMCV as well. But I think that the option to purchase them up as a characteristic is a good idea as well. This way characters have the option of going either way. 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Gauntlet
Wanted to add some things.

[Doc Democracy]

12 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I think we need to go the other way. I agree that perhaps Ego attacks should have a bonus based on your EGO. I think what we maybe should be increasing what other things do rather than just reducing them.

 

As for OCV and DCV along with OMCV and DMCV as well. But I think that the option to purchase them up as a characteristic is a good idea as well. This way characters have the option of going either way. 

 

 

 

We are in different philosophical places but I think your position is consistent. 

 

I reckon you add complexity to do all that stuff and it possibly leaves players incentivised to buy characteristics that enhance efficiency rather than match concept. Like figured characteristics drove high STR, DEX and CON characters.

[Gauntlet]

I sometimes worry about Hero going the way of other Roleplaying games by trying to get simpler and simpler. I hate the new D&D as due to its simpleness making all characters are pretty much the same. My fighter is the same as your fighter, which is the same as his fighter, which is the same as her fighter or my wizard is the same as your wizard and so on and so forth. I love that in Hero I can make my character actually my character, not just a copy of the norm. I am not saying that currently Hero is like D&D but I get the feeling that we are starting to go in that route, believing that it will make hero be purchased by more players.

[Doc Democracy]

11 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

I am not saying that currently Hero is like D&D but I get the feeling that we are starting to go in that route, believing that it will make hero be purchased by more players.

 

I don't think you have anything to worry about.  I reckon you might get a simple game that is essentially a wrapper on the system, but you would always have the option of pulling back the covers and tinkering with the engine.

 

Doc

[Gauntlet]

26 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I don't think you have anything to worry about.  I reckon you might get a simple game that is essentially a wrapper on the system, but you would always have the option of pulling back the covers and tinkering with the engine.

 

Doc

 

True, one thing great about hero is they leave all the older versions readily available.

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

But you are paying for it, you have to pay for the STR.

 

Assume that I want a 4d6 HKA.  I can achieve this with a 10 STR and a 3d6+1 HKA - cost 50 points.

 

Or I can achieve this with a 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA - cost 20 points + 30 points = 50 points.

 

If we remove doubling, I can achieve this with 55 STR and 1 pip HKA - cost 45 points + 5 points = 50 points.

 

Under any of these options, I have spent 50 points.  Some options give me more STR, for the same points. It does not seem like I am paying for the STR.  The doubling rule limits the free STR my HKA-using character can have, but does not eliminate it.

 

7 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

You get the benefits of having the STR by buying the STR.  Why should that purchasing get you free HKA as well??  There is already a case that STR should be 2 points per point, if you are adding in free HKA then that becomes much stronger. No?

 

That way lies madness!   If part of the value of STR is that it enhances HKA, then either we need some way for a character lacking an HKA to recoup that portion of the cost of STR, or all characters without an HKA are forced to overpay for STR.

 

6 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

So I take you are of the opinion that STR should only give you a lifting capacity and not damage.

 

As for not allowing STR to add to HKA, I can understand that in a Superheroic campaign (though I do not agree with it), but definitely not a heroic one such as Fantasy Hero.

 

I would be more online with increasing the cost of STR as I do believe that even in 6th edition it gives you more than it's cost. Perhaps 3 points for every two points of STR?

 

The alternative is to change the build on the weapon, adding extra KA DCs only when weilded by a user with sufficient STR. This could be extra HKA DCs with a limitation or could be broadened out into a much broader advantage which would allow Bruiser to have his 2d6 PD drain (hitting so hard you bruise and are more injured by later physical attacks) enhanced by his STR, to pick one example.

 

Other possible approaches certainly exist.  All attack powers could be like KA, with a ranged version and an HTH version augmented by STR. If yours is neither ranged nor augmented by STR, take a -1/2 limitation instead.  If it is both ranged and augmented by STR, add a +1/2 advantage.

 

However, when you get more of Power X because you have Characteristic Y, this makes Characteristic Y more valuable to any character who is buying Power X then it is to characters not buying Power X.

[Gauntlet]

16 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Assume that I want a 4d6 HKA.  I can achieve this with a 10 STR and a 3d6+1 HKA - cost 50 points.

 

Or I can achieve this with a 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA - cost 20 points + 30 points = 50 points.

 

If we remove doubling, I can achieve this with 55 STR and 1 pip HKA - cost 45 points + 5 points = 50 points.

 

Under any of these options, I have spent 50 points.  Some options give me more STR, for the same points. It does not seem like I am paying for the STR.  The doubling rule limits the free STR my HKA-using character can have, but does not eliminate it.

 

 

That way lies madness!   If part of the value of STR is that it enhances HKA, then either we need some way for a character lacking an HKA to recoup that portion of the cost of STR, or all characters without an HKA are forced to overpay for STR.

 

 

The alternative is to change the build on the weapon, adding extra KA DCs only when weilded by a user with sufficient STR. This could be extra HKA DCs with a limitation or could be broadened out into a much broader advantage which would allow Bruiser to have his 2d6 PD drain (hitting so hard you bruise and are more injured by later physical attacks) enhanced by his STR, to pick one example.

 

Other possible approaches certainly exist.  All attack powers could be like KA, with a ranged version and an HTH version augmented by STR. If yours is neither ranged nor augmented by STR, take a -1/2 limitation instead.  If it is both ranged and augmented by STR, add a +1/2 advantage.

 

However, when you get more of Power X because you have Characteristic Y, this makes Characteristic Y more valuable to any character who is buying Power X then it is to characters not buying Power X.

 

Problem I have is that not allowing STR to increase HKA makes STR pretty much useless in Heroic games. A halfling with a 5 STR does as much damage with a knife as does a Troll with a 35 STR. Just doesn't make any sense. I think it might be a better idea to allow other characteristics add things so that STR isn't the only characteristic doing so. Perhaps allowing EGO to increase your mental attack, and perhaps even allowing DEX to increase your Ranged Attack.

 

Now if you go with the argument that the 35 STR Troll shouldn't be doing 2-1/2d6 Damage with a little knife, I agree with you, that is why I think the doubling rule is a good thing. But stating that someone with 129 times the lifting capacity will do the same damage, just doesn't make sense. 

 

But as I have said before: I love that this game keeps older version usable. So in the case that the new version is something myself and my players truly hate, we can stay with an earlier version without repercussions. I like that this game thinks of all its players, not just the new ones.

[Duke Bushido]

I have had some time (not as much as I would have liked, I am afraid) to review large chunks of this thread (as before, not as much as I would have liked).

 

 

There is no solution.

 

I don't say that dramatically; I don't say that facetiously.  There is no solution because there have been attempts to fix it already, which have resulted in new problems with no stemming of the original complaints.

 

The original problem, I think--  and yes; this is a puffy opinion piece.  We've made it to page five, so now we can give up and get all philiosophical, right?      

 

the problem seems to have come ultimately from multiple concepts of "where does the damage come from."

 

Some see "oh!  Well, this says hand-to-hand attack" or "hand-to-hand killing attack,' so that must be where the damage comes from.   Well if I a declare that I am swinging a physical weapon, then I should be able to add some extra damage because of my incredible strength"  while others see "well, physical hand to hand damage comes from strength initially, so STR must add in when I buy hand to hand attacks of all stripes" and still other see "hey, this combined attack, multiple power attack stuff should mean that I can swing my club, add in the damage from my strength, but also punch him for full strength damage because- well, because it says I can."

 

too many things have been, as we used to say in the DC electrical business, "fixed in the middle."  As an example of fixing something in the middle:

 

I never got used to the number of customers that would come in with cars, boats, bikes, and anything else with a DC electrical system that, I would discover while looking for the source of their problem (usually a burned out component), had a supply circuit with a ridiculously over-sized fuse.  Invariably, when I asked why such a large fuse had been installed, the customer would reply along the lines of "the correctly-sized fuse kept blowing, so I put in a bigger fuse.  Eventually I found a fuse big enough that it wouldnt blow, fixing the problem forever, and now the ECM smells funny."

 

Instead of starting at the problem and working all the way back to the source, or starting at the source and working all the way through the circuit, they went straight to the symptom, fixed the circuit in the middle, and called it good.  Bonus points for selling the truck in a hurry, leaving the next guy to figure out why his relays are a bit smokey.... 

 

Thumb typing sucks, which works great for you guys, since it prevents me from extending this methaphor in several dozen hilarious examples.  (You're welcome.)

 

At any rate, looking at two of the sides (and there are probably more than two sides, but for the bulk of the post-Desolid conversation, there have been two distinctly different viewpoints on this- anyway, from what I can see-- and again, this is more sermon than science; I am not a numbers guy (which is why I actually need time to analyze the numbers when you folks start slinging them around.  The first couple of hours is just figuring what heck you're talking about before I can even try the math.      )

 

Anyway, the biggest difference in opinion here seems to be a differing opinion on "where does the damage come from."

 

So let's start with PD damage.  I punch you!  Okay, that damage comes from STR.

 

Now I will martial punch you!  Okay, that damage comes from STR also.  But I get a +some dice!  That comes from martial Arts!

 

Okay, fine.  I will play along.  I Will watch a few youtube videos of actual martial Arts fights.  I will be looking specifically for knife hand strikes amd whatever it is you call it when it is the same strike, but the hand is balled into fist (which, for the record, hurts far less to deliver).

 

When I watch UMA clips, these strikes look like the hurt a bit.  When I watch more formal combat exhibitions, these strikes seem to hurt a bit.  When I watch kids and younger teens, I am pretty sure I could shrug off most of what I am seeing.

 

What is the point of all this?  I am saying that martial Arts damage does not come from martial Arts.  The argument is "but I built a maneuver that gives me STR+some dice!"

 

I submit that repeated exposure to gamer shorthand has led to a lack of questioning the word problem behind the equation:  martial arts does not in itself add extra damage.  It is a set of skills you have developed to let you deliver strength damage more effectively: to hit with the same force as an untrained combatant of greater strength--  hitting above your weight class, so to speak.

 

All I want to buy some hand attack to add more damage!  I can do that!  I want to buy three more dice of hand attack to represent this 3-foot piece of lumber I am swinging!  That lumber adds damage!

 

Again, in gamer shorthand, it does:  +3d6 HA, OIF (3' hickory 2x2).

Going from that, you get the impression that you do STR damage then add Wooden Stick Damage.  But what is actually being modeled here?  That stick cannot do 3d6 damage by itself.  I know this for a fact: I get hit with several of them everyday (treated southern pine, though; not usually hickory) either falling, being tossed, an occasionally on the head or shoulder because I forgot I put one on top the cage of whatever equipment I happen to be operating (the plant is littered with dunnage; it is cheaper to pick it up as I need it than it is to keep buying and losing canes).  It cannot do that kind of damage to you by itself.

 

So what are you modeling?  The leverage you get that- again- lets you more effectively deliver your STR damage.  The damage comes from STR; the additional dice are not "extra,' but an increased efficiency at applying that STR.

 

  (Yes; I know, and I promise: we'll get there, but for now, let's just take the slow road.  I kind of need it in order to stay focused right now)

 

Now we move on the HKA.  Conan's sword; Wolverine's also swords; a murderer' garotte. 

 

So what am I saying?  Because this isn't just extra dice!  This is a whole different kind of damage!  Aha!  I am got!

 

Well, it's all just philosophical, and just one guy's opinion, so there isn't going to be any sort of "gotcha" here.  But yes; that is how I see it.  HKA is, just like all other bonus damage, a model that you can apply your strength damage in such a way as to ignore all but the strongest defenses.  Maybe you use a sharp weapon that slices through lesser (non-resistant) defenses, or maybe you are so effective at applying directly-concentrated bare-knuckles force that your enemies call you Rikki-O when you aren't around.  Bones shatter, organs tear, and blood ruptures out in geysers from your oponents anterior surfaces.

 

But why can't I add all my STR or some more of my STR or more than HKAx2 worth of STR or--

 

Well, I think the biggest problem is that KA (particularly HKA) is the most screwed-around-with power in the game.  It has been fixed in the middle so many times that I don't think enough people stop to realize that when they build a knife or a sword or a club they are building a tool that lets them more effectively apply their STR.  _That_, I believe, is why STR adds to it in the first place: you are able to apply an amount of damage equivalent to HKAd6 plus (STR/15) up to whatever the limit od your edition or campaign has as a limit.

 

Let's remember the first edition let you buy half a die and add all of your (STR/15) in additional dice, and at some point someone said 'well, that gets ugly fast,' so they fixes it in the middle.  And then again, and again, and surprise!  Now the ECM smells funny, I have a pair of relays that look kinda melty, and the control panel is hot to the touch.

 

 I am not here to explain what is right or wrong.  I am simply saying "analyze the whole thing, including what it is you are modeling when you buy this power."  That in itself may help the rules for whatever edition you are using make sense in the scheme of your  games.

"Why can't I put all of my STR60/15 on top of my HKA dice?"  Well, you _can_!  All the rules are doing is telling you that you have to already have 4d6 of HKA to do it (in any edition with a doubling rule), and or course, your GM is really the _only_ thing stopping you.  If he is fine with you having 8 dice of HKA, more power to you and him both.

 

The players and the GM have a part to play in the rules, too.  The rules are more than just numbers to crunch; they are also concepts that must be rationalized.  If the players and GM of any group cannot work out a reasonable, gameable sensibility for what a certain thing works a certain way, then they can either declare that it doesn't work that way (which is fine, and why there is a massive blob of black Sharpie in my 5e book where the section on Shapeshift is in everyone else's)  or dig a little deeper for an solid in-game rationale for why it might work that way.  Building a sword? A hammer?  They are tools-  they are quite literally levers, and while levers amplify force, there is a limit to what they can do.  Building a brute-force bone-busting strongman?  Well, that bit of HKA is the amount of damage he can do with his strength-  remember that every die of HKA is DC3, making every die of HKA analogous to STR15.  If your STR 30 adventurer has one die of HKA and only gets 1 "bonus die" (again: gamer shorthand that ultimately impedes conceptual understanding), that is still 6 DC.  Yes; he gets 6DC with his "regular" STR damage, but rhis character has learned to use his STR so efficiently that he effectively ignores non-resistant DEF.

 

 

 

Now we are at that part that some folks have been waiting for; the part I promised we'd get to:

 

I can define my own SFX, and everything you have said falls apart if I say my HA or HKA is versus ED and my SFX is some form of energy.

 

No; it still holds water.  The write ups for HA seem to not care if it is "additional" to STR damage or a free-standing attack.  If that has changed for 6e, you still have the same option that you have for HKA in every edition: a power Limitation called one of several variants of "STR does not apply."  Further, if your SFX is versus ED, you are still allowed to accept the STR bonus, but _it is on you_ to work out with the GM how that makes sense; the rules cant do that for you.  That isnt in the section on HKA, but it _is_ in every esirion's discussion of the separation if SFX and mechanics which, as we all well know, are just as much part of the rules as the mechanics themselves.

 

 

In this way, the balance of the universe is maintained.  Well, my universe, anyway.  You all have your own universes to rationalize, or to continue to subdivide until you get to whatever level of points costs for individual elements feels right to you.  I gave up decades ago on worrying about that.  I expect that by the sixteenth edition, those of you left alive will _still_ be having those complaints, and remain just as unwilling to accept  that perfect points balance just isn't ever going to be a thing.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Doc Democracy]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I expect that by the sixteenth edition, those of you left alive will _still_ be having those complaints, and remain just as unwilling to accept  that perfect points balance just isn't ever going to be a thing.

 

We are all in the gutter Duke but some of us are gazing at the stars!  😄

[Doc Democracy]

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Assume that I want a 4d6 HKA.  I can achieve this with a 10 STR and a 3d6+1 HKA - cost 50 points.

 

Or I can achieve this with a 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA - cost 20 points + 30 points = 50 points.

 

If we remove doubling, I can achieve this with 55 STR and 1 pip HKA - cost 45 points + 5 points = 50 points.

 

You missed one.  You could buy 4D6 Killing Attack, no range.  That costs 40 points.  This almost wrecks the "free STR" argument as, for lower values, it is cheaper to buy the power direct.

 

It is not the big thing when you are talking weapons though as that 1/2 limitation gets a bit lost among all the others.  I thought it was worth mentioning though, in the interests of honest debate. 🙂

 

6 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Problem I have is that not allowing STR to increase HKA makes STR pretty much useless in Heroic games. A halfling with a 5 STR does as much damage with a knife as does a Troll with a 35 STR. Just doesn't make any sense

 

Two points to this.  35 STR will never be useless in a Fantasy HERO game, or any heroic setting.  The ability to wield that power gives you huge advantage over those limited to 20 STR.

 

Also, if you think your troll should be doing more damage with weapons, buy them +xD6 HKA with weapons.  In HERO you should be paying for what you get.

 

What I never understood was why, if they kept adding damage due to STR, why they got rid of over-applying STR to a tool, damaged the tool.  So adding 3D6 ka to a dagger, applied that damage to the dagger as well.  You troll could use it to punch through a wall but neither the wall or the dagger are much use after it.  🙂

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Problem I have is that not allowing STR to increase HKA makes STR pretty much useless in Heroic games. A halfling with a 5 STR does as much damage with a knife as does a Troll with a 35 STR. Just doesn't make any sense. I think it might be a better idea to allow other characteristics add things so that STR isn't the only characteristic doing so. Perhaps allowing EGO to increase your mental attack, and perhaps even allowing DEX to increase your Ranged Attack.

 

Now if you go with the argument that the 35 STR Troll shouldn't be doing 2-1/2d6 Damage with a little knife, I agree with you, that is why I think the doubling rule is a good thing. But stating that someone with 129 times the lifting capacity will do the same damage, just doesn't make sense. 

 

But as I have said before: I love that this game keeps older version usable. So in the case that the new version is something myself and my players truly hate, we can stay with an earlier version without repercussions. I like that this game thinks of all its players, not just the new ones.

 

If the Troll uses that puny knife, he drops from 7 DC to 4 DC.  The use of the dagger renders much of his STR useless already.  In fact, I think I should build a character with the BrickBuster - 1 pip HKA, Usable as an Attack.  He magically covers the target's fists with tin knuckles - a sharp, pointy 1 pip HKA.  Since the troll is (for reasons not explained by RAW - if you feel they are, point me to it) perceived as unable to use that 1 pip HKA (1/2d6 w/ STR) in a combined attack with a 7d6 STR strike, being forced to use that puny HKA puts paid to him!

 

In any case, in Heroic, that sword is a piece of equipment purchased with cash instead of points.  It can have any stats we wish to place on it.  The build is already pretty complex.  That knife would be 1/2d6 HKA, +2 DC (requires STR over STR min to access extra DCs), resulting in the same construction we have at present. As @Duke Bushido suggests, the equipment leverages your STR.  This approach applies the point cost of leveraging your STR to that HKA.

 

Now, I said "like it is now".  That's true unless we want to change those builds by having weapons modified by DEX, or EGO, or the greater of multiple stats.  Or we want some weapons to be especially good at leveraging STR (+1 DC per 3 STR over STR minimum) or not quite so good (+1 DC per 6 STR over STR min).

 

4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

You missed one.  You could buy 4D6 Killing Attack, no range.  That costs 40 points.  This almost wrecks the "free STR" argument as, for lower values, it is cheaper to buy the power direct.

 

It is not the big thing when you are talking weapons though as that 1/2 limitation gets a bit lost among all the others.  I thought it was worth mentioning though, in the interests of honest debate. 🙂

 

 

Two points to this.  35 STR will never be useless in a Fantasy HERO game, or any heroic setting.  The ability to wield that power gives you huge advantage over those limited to 20 STR.

 

Also, if you think your troll should be doing more damage with weapons, buy them +xD6 HKA with weapons.  In HERO you should be paying for what you get.

 

What I never understood was why, if they kept adding damage due to STR, why they got rid of over-applying STR to a tool, damaged the tool.  So adding 3D6 ka to a dagger, applied that damage to the dagger as well.  You troll could use it to punch through a wall but neither the wall or the dagger are much use after it.  🙂

 

Doc

 

I can buy it as "no STR adds" as well.  From that perspective, I suppose you are paying 10 STR to get +20 STR.  This assumes we do not apply the "no, you must find the most expensive way to buy the power, unless the most expensive way would be to buy an HKA your STR is effective at augmenting" logic presented in some cases.  If I am able to combine KA, STR and these limitations to maximum effect, I should buy a 2 DC (1/2d6) HKA (10 points), plus 8 DC (2 1/2 d6), no STR addition(-1/2; 27 points) and only pay 37 points.  But I am told this is so cheesy that, when noticed, the character sheet should be shredded, I should be booted from the gaming group and the Pope of RPGs should excommunicate me, or some such.

 

But it's not cheesy to change my character concept from "scrawny little guy with great gnarly claws" to "huge brute with smaller claws" to get that extra STR at no extra cost.  Big, brawny guys are the only concept allowed to build an HKA on a cost-effective basis.  Because in Hero, you get what you pay for and pay for what you get!

 

The over-add STR and damage the weapon model is, I believe, still presented as an option.  But how do we apply it to the CatMan whose 1/2d6 HKA comes from natural claws rather than a metal dagger?

 

At least we have Real Weapon to make that dagger less effective at punching through a wall, I suppose.

[Gauntlet]

7 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

You missed one.  You could buy 4D6 Killing Attack, no range.  That costs 40 points.  This almost wrecks the "free STR" argument as, for lower values, it is cheaper to buy the power direct.

 

It is not the big thing when you are talking weapons though as that 1/2 limitation gets a bit lost among all the others.  I thought it was worth mentioning though, in the interests of honest debate. 🙂

 

 

Two points to this.  35 STR will never be useless in a Fantasy HERO game, or any heroic setting.  The ability to wield that power gives you huge advantage over those limited to 20 STR.

 

Also, if you think your troll should be doing more damage with weapons, buy them +xD6 HKA with weapons.  In HERO you should be paying for what you get.

 

What I never understood was why, if they kept adding damage due to STR, why they got rid of over-applying STR to a tool, damaged the tool.  So adding 3D6 ka to a dagger, applied that damage to the dagger as well.  You troll could use it to punch through a wall but neither the wall or the dagger are much use after it.  🙂

 

Doc

 

That's why I always utilized the double rule. You can only double a HKA, so that knife at 1/2d6 can only do a maximum of 1d6+1. And I was only using a Troll to show a major difference. What about the character with a 15 STR or a 10 STR, they still easily could be using a knife but still only doing as much damage as that weak halfling. Plus, considering how reduced many FH characters can be, they can't afford to purchase a whole bunch of additional damage bonuses, they need it for skills.

 

But this may just be something to state that we agree to disagree.