Argument Concerning Desolification

[Christopher R Taylor]

That is kind of what the rules eventually ended up being, but even that is a mess: why is HTA 3 points, or 5 with a ½ limitation?  How on earth does that add up?

HKA: 5 points per damage class, applies damage, and adds STR to damage.

RKA: 5 points per damage class, applies damage at range.

 

Why doesn't this work the same for HTA?  Why the cost break??

[dmjalund]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

That is kind of what the rules eventually ended up being, but even that is a mess: why is HTA 3 points, or 5 with a ½ limitation?  How on earth does that add up?

HKA: 5 points per damage class, applies damage, and adds STR to damage.

RKA: 5 points per damage class, applies damage at range.

 

Why doesn't this work the same for HTA?  Why the cost break??

because STR is underpriced

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

That is kind of what the rules eventually ended up being, but even that is a mess: why is HTA 3 points, or 5 with a ½ limitation?  How on earth does that add up?

HKA: 5 points per damage class, applies damage, and adds STR to damage.

RKA: 5 points per damage class, applies damage at range.

 

Why doesn't this work the same for HTA?  Why the cost break??

 

Because 5 points for +1d6 HTH damage would be stupid overpriced compared to a Martial Arts DC or +5 STR.  Even 6 points for +2 skill levels with 3 HTH maneuvers would be a better deal - +1 more point per DC, but you can use it for OCV or DCV instead.

 

We've had lots of discussions over why KA is the only power that can be augmented by STR; suffice to say that I consider that the troublesome mechanic.  Viewed another way, STR should not come bundled with extra KA DCs for those characters who buy an HKA (or who buy enough HKA if you keep the doubling rule).

Edited September 19, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

because STR is underpriced

...

Because 5 points for +1d6 HTH damage would be stupid overpriced compared to a Martial Arts DC or +5 STR.

 

But how does that not apply to killing attacks?

[Grailknight]

HA at 5 points is only an issue if you are seeking perfect points balance. The difference between Density Increase and Martial Arts DC's versus HA and STR is 1 point per DC. We whine about it at times, but we've always accepted that some concepts are slightly more expensive than others.

 

KA is not the only power that comes bundled with STR. HA does also. Doubling and proration solve all the problems except the free 10 STR.

[Hugh Neilson]

18 hours ago, Grailknight said:

HA at 5 points is only an issue if you are seeking perfect points balance. The difference between Density Increase and Martial Arts DC's versus HA and STR is 1 point per DC. We whine about it at times, but we've always accepted that some concepts are slightly more expensive than others.

 

KA is not the only power that comes bundled with STR. HA does also. Doubling and proration solve all the problems except the free 10 STR.

 

 HA is extra STR, only adds to normal damage. It's not bundled with STR, it's a portion of STR unbundled,

 

As to "why is it OK with Killing Attack", frankly it's not.  If you want your punches to do more damage because you have iron fists, you buy more damage with Hand Attack. If you want more resistance against fire and cold damage because you are immune to temperature extremes, you buy a defense power that only works against fire and cold damage.  You should Grab and Hold more effectively because you have six tentacles instead of two arms? Buy extra STR only to Grab and Hold.  If you think your claws should slice deeper because you are so strong, buy more HKA and Unified Power it to STR so loss of STR erodes that extra claw damage.  Your high STR is a justification for buying more KA, not a reason you should get a free bonus to your KA. 

 

Ditch HKA and RKA.  We can just have KA, ranged by default.  Want a no range KA?  Put "no range" on it, just like you would on a No Range Entangle.

 

It would make a sword build more complicated for Heroic especially.  So what? We buy those weapons with cash, not CP.  And they are already pretty complex builds.

[Grailknight]

14 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 HA is extra STR, only adds to normal damage. It's not bundled with STR, it's a portion of STR unbundled,

 

As to "why is it OK with Killing Attack", frankly it's not.  If you want your punches to do more damage because you have iron fists, you buy more damage with Hand Attack. If you want more resistance against fire and cold damage because you are immune to temperature extremes, you buy a defense power that only works against fire and cold damage.  You should Grab and Hold more effectively because you have six tentacles instead of two arms? Buy extra STR only to Grab and Hold.  If you think your claws should slice deeper because you are so strong, buy more HKA and Unified Power it to STR so loss of STR erodes that extra claw damage.  Your high STR is a justification for buying more KA, not a reason you should get a free bonus to your KA. 

 

Ditch HKA and RKA.  We can just have KA, ranged by default.  Want a no range KA?  Put "no range" on it, just like you would on a No Range Entangle.

 

It would make a sword build more complicated for Heroic especially.  So what? We buy those weapons with cash, not CP.  And they are already pretty complex builds.

 

Yet that same sword build in Supers is incredibly simple. 

 

Plus, why would we want to ditch HKA? The problems caused by adding STR are caused by removing the doubling rule. With doubling rules, it's balanced with RKA on an DC per Active Points basis. Using your change will give every HKA the same discount/reduced pricing that's so troubling with HA. Yes, there's that free 10 points of STR, but that's available to everyone. I can't see your pursuit of perfect as worth it against my very good status quo. Give me something better and just as simple and I'll be open to it.

[Duke Bushido]

On 9/18/2023 at 9:46 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

I mean the 4th Ed rule book could’ve had a simple suggestion with HA saying something that although the cost is 3 pts, it should be treated as a 5 pt ACT point power for the consideration of Game Balance.

 

 

(Sorry; been away for a bit, and I was trying to figure out how we went from Desolid to HA)

 

N-B:

 

If I am not mistaken, I believe 5e did exactly that:  this is a 5AP power that costs 3 pts or words to that effect.

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Yet that same sword build in Supers is incredibly simple. 

 

In Hugh's world, that sword in Supers is also incredibly simple.  Killing attack, no range.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Alternately, since HKA has worked so well for 40+ years, maybe we should just charge 5 points per d6 of normal damage, whether ranged or STR adds, and be done with it, no "hand to hand attack" limitation involved.

[Gauntlet]

4 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Plus, why would we want to ditch HKA? The problems caused by adding STR are caused by removing the doubling rule. With doubling rules, it's balanced with RKA on an DC per Active Points basis. Using your change will give every HKA the same discount/reduced pricing that's so troubling with HA. Yes, there's that free 10 points of STR, but that's available to everyone. I can't see your pursuit of perfect as worth it against my very good status quo. Give me something better and just as simple and I'll be open to it.

 

I definitely have to agree, removing the double max does allow someone even with an only 1 BODY 5 Point hand killing attack with a good STR make it several dice. In my games with 6th edition I leave the double rule in.

[Grailknight]

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

In Hugh's world, that sword in Supers is also incredibly simple.  Killing attack, no range.

 

Which is more complicated than Killing Attack, HTH. One is a Power, the other is a Power with a Limitation. And it doesn't even accomplish his main goal of eliminating the free points of STR. Anything of 6 DC or more saves 10 or more points because of the Limitation. Oh! Let's fix that by making No Range only worth -1/4. But then do we leave Range at +1/2 or is it only worth +1/4? And how do we then price Telekinesis?

 

Perfect points balance is a desirable goal but let's keep the very good until we answer all the questions.

 

And I can give you a perfect fix for that free STR issue. Make any HKA require a 10 STR Minimum.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Grailknight

[Doc Democracy]

12 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

One is a Power, the other is a Power with a Limitation.

 

Well, the conceit of the system is that a modified power is a new power.  However, there is virtually no difference.  Not complex enough to make me squeamish about preferring this than giving free points out. which brings me to..

 

16 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

And it doesn't even accomplish his main goal of eliminating the free points of STR. Anything of 6 DC or more saves 10 or more points because of the Limitation.

 

It does indeed accomplish the goal of eliminating free points.  The limitation does its job of saving points, the person who buys Killing Attack, no range, pays fewer points than the person who buys Killing Attack because their power is limited.  Nothing to do with free points from STR.

[Grailknight]

1 minute ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Well, the conceit of the system is that a modified power is a new power.  However, there is virtually no difference.  Not complex enough to make me squeamish about preferring this than giving free points out. which brings me to..

 

 

It does indeed accomplish the goal of eliminating free points.  The limitation does its job of saving points, the person who buys Killing Attack, no range, pays fewer points than the person who buys Killing Attack because their power is limited.  Nothing to do with free points from STR.

 

Hugh's objection to HKA is based completely around the idea that STR adds to it. His version of KA is full priced for Ranged and gets the Limitation for No Range but STR doesn't add. He says in his previous post that the method of getting more KA is to buy more and if you want it to be dependent on STR, you will, with another Limitation, link it to STR.  Does that seem simpler to you?

[Doc Democracy]

14 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

Hugh's objection to HKA is based completely around the idea that STR adds to it. His version of KA is full priced for Ranged and gets the Limitation for No Range but STR doesn't add. He says in his previous post that the method of getting more KA is to buy more and if you want it to be dependent on STR, you will, with another Limitation, link it to STR.  Does that seem simpler to you?

 

It is cleaner.  Each thing does what you pay for.  No extra benefits for choosing a particular thing, no little secret bennies for those that know the system. 

 

I can understand the objection, It makes killing attack work like blast. No differences.

 

[Grailknight]

6 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

It is cleaner.  Each thing does what you pay for.  No extra benefits for choosing a particular thing, no little secret bennies for those that know the system. 

 

I can understand the objection, It makes killing attack work like blast. No differences.

 

 

I understand it also. I'd prefer to just change HA to 5 points and have it act like HKA. Or did you forget that HA also benefits from that same free STR?

Edited September 20, 2023 by Grailknight

[Ninja-Bear]

7 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

(Sorry; been away for a bit, and I was trying to figure out how we went from Desolid to HA)

 

N-B:

 

If I am not mistaken, I believe 5e did exactly that:  this is a 5AP power that costs 3 pts or words to that effect.

 

 

No, they made it a 5pt power with a mandatory -1/2 limitation.  

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Yet that same sword build in Supers is incredibly simple.

 

 

Sure - and it would be just as simple for that sword to be 4d6 KA, No Range, OAF as it is to be 2d6 HKA, OAF, add your STR, but if you are really strong, only add some of your STR.  We'll get back to that STR later.

 

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

In Hugh's world, that sword in Supers is also incredibly simple.  Killing attack, no range.

 

DING DING - every bit as simple as any attack that normally has range, but yours does not

 

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Alternately, since HKA has worked so well for 40+ years, maybe we should just charge 5 points per d6 of normal damage, whether ranged or STR adds, and be done with it, no "hand to hand attack" limitation involved.

 

Which one worked so well?  The 1e version that had no gradations between each 15 points adding 1d6, with no doubling rule?

 

2e brought us the doubling rule.

 

Did we get +1; +1/2d6/+1d6 in 2e, 3e or 4e?

 

The STUN Lotto was an issue from 1e to 5e.  Should the STUN only be reduced by rDEF or by all DEF, or by all DEF only if you have rDEF?  Maybe all DEF to a maximum of 2x rDEF, since we like doubling rules.

 

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Plus, why would we want to ditch HKA? The problems caused by adding STR are caused by removing the doubling rule. With doubling rules, it's balanced with RKA on an DC per Active Points basis. Using your change will give every HKA the same discount/reduced pricing that's so troubling with HA. Yes, there's that free 10 points of STR, but that's available to everyone. I can't see your pursuit of perfect as worth it against my very good status quo. Give me something better and just as simple and I'll be open to it.

 

So it IS balanced if you can have 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA that gives you 4d6 HKA.  And if you have a 10 STR and a 3d6+1 HKA, also 4d6 HKA, for exactly the same price?  Can I have +20 STR for free if I forego the KA entirely?  It's not costing any different between these two options. 

 

But it's NOT balanced if I have 45 STR and a 1d6 HKA if we let STR push that up to 4d6 HKA - we have to cap it at 2d6 HKA.

 

Please explain to me why it's perfect to double, and problematic afterwards.  Use simple words as I am clearly missing something massively obvious here!

 

Is having 10 STR and a 4d6 KA with no range worth 50 points (3d6+1 HKA) or 40 points (4d6 RKA, No Range)?  The 40 point one still does full damage after a STR drain too!

 

Why don't we have HEntangle, HFlash, HDrain and HAid, all the same as their ranged counterparts except that they are boosted by STR?  That would be like HBlast, which is just that HA costing 5 points per d6.

 

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

It does indeed accomplish the goal of eliminating free points.  The limitation does its job of saving points, the person who buys Killing Attack, no range, pays fewer points than the person who buys Killing Attack because their power is limited.  Nothing to do with free points from STR.

 

Having a base 10 STR has nothing to do with it.  And you could sell back STR, so the first 10 STR being free is only an illusion.

 

56 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

It is cleaner.  Each thing does what you pay for.  No extra benefits for choosing a particular thing, no little secret bennies for those that know the system. 

 

I can understand the objection, It makes killing attack work like blast. No differences.

 

 

BINGO

 

51 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

I understand it also. I'd prefer to just change HA to 5 points and have it act like HKA. Or did you forget that HA also benefits from that same free STR?

 

HA is +X STR, only for normal damage (-1/2).  When you buy more of something, typically it adds to the "something" you started with.

[Grailknight]

In simple terms, because while RAW allows STR to add to HKA, it does not allow HKA to add to STR. 

 

In genre, stronger things hit harder and do more damage with weapons including what HERO classifies as Killing Damage weapons. Doubling hits a sweet spot between play balance and realism where you can only add so much to a weapon and beyond that point it becomes ineffective. Without doubling we get those "thumbtack vs battleship arguments" that we've had before and don't need to repeat.

 

Now in simple terms, tell me why the reverse is not also viable? Why can't my 15 STR plus 3d6 HKA hit for 60 STR instead of 4d6 Killing? As you say, the points are the same. If this were possible by RAW, I'd agree that doubling is unnecessary, but I've never seen anyone beside myself make this argument. 

 

As for what worked well about HKA, doubling was added in 2e and was RAW for decades until 6e where it was changed. It says something about doubling that in the very next paragraph it was mentioned as an optional rule for consideration. I don't recall any other instances where Steve Long wavered like that and this is the man who removed Figured Characteristics and eliminated COM.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Grailknight

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Which one worked so well?

 

Have you found the system broken with how HKA works?  Seems like Hero has cruised along fine with hand to hand killing attacks allowing increased damage from STR since, I dunno, 1st edition?  

[Doc Democracy]

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Have you found the system broken with how HKA works?  Seems like Hero has cruised along fine with hand to hand killing attacks allowing increased damage from STR since, I dunno, 1st edition?  

 

Is that not just an argument never to change anything?  I mean, obviously, Duke is there.  he is content to work with the system as it was way back in 2E and I reckon most of us here, if we wanted to would be quite content to do the same and have pretty much identical games.  But that would not keep the system alive - where it needs to sell stuff.  We are the people most likely to buy stuff (even if we only play the original edition) and we wont buy the same ruleset more than onece or twice every coupe of decades.  A company needs to produce new editions just to generate the money it needs to survive. 

 

Most of us want changes, we just dont all want the same changes! 🙂

 

Hugh wants the system to be more coherent.  Hand attack is, to all extents and purposes, limited STR.  It adds to STR because it is the same thing doing a limited version of the same thing.  If STR was not in a black box, you would be able to modulate the damage, lifting and other things associated with STR on a character by character basis.  Killing attack is not doing anything that STR does.  The idea that STR adds to the damage is because it is mixing up SFX with mechanics.  It seems obvious to you that a sword should do more damage if someone stronger is using it.  It also makes more sense to me that Mental Blast do more damage because their EGO is high but it doesn't.

 

There is inconsistency in the system, when SFX make a difference to the mechanics and when they do not.  You either agree that you owuld like a bt more consistency or not and what that would look like but saying that it has been this way since [whenever] doesn't engage that argument.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Grailknight said:

In simple terms, because while RAW allows STR to add to HKA, it does not allow HKA to add to STR. 

 

In genre, stronger things hit harder and do more damage with weapons including what HERO classifies as Killing Damage weapons. Doubling hits a sweet spot between play balance and realism where you can only add so much to a weapon and beyond that point it becomes ineffective. Without doubling we get those "thumbtack vs battleship arguments" that we've had before and don't need to repeat.

 

Over time, the "power adds to other powers" mechanics have been removed.  At one time, you added extra mental defense from Ego, if you paid for some mental defense. Many powers had an "add HTH damage" mechanic bolted on.

 

In genre, creatures that live in molton magma or the heart of a star are not injured by heat and fire. In Hero, you pay for what you get and you get what you pay for.  For Fantasy games, I would modify the build for those "buy with cash" weapons to include an STR add.   But maybe it would not double for every weapon.  Perhaps some would have higher maximum adds and others would be lower. Perhaps some would be enhanced by DEX instead of STR and others would go the other way.  That would be more familiar to current d20 players.  Maybe some would be better targeted intelligently, so INT could add, and mental attacks could be enhanced by EGO.

 

As well, with the advent of combined attacks, a high STR character can hit harder with no KA adder.  If I have a 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA, cite the rule that precludes me from doing 4d6 HKA damage + 6d6 STR strike.  There is none.  Remove the adder and it becomes even more clear that I can combine an STR Strike with a no range KA.  Just like a character with a 6d6 Blast and a 2d6 RKA can use both at once as a combined attack, but can't add to the RKA using that Blast.  Now, they can build for the same effect - they can have a Blast and an RKA in a Multipower and trade off.  They could buy some RKA that is Unified with their Blast (we need a one-way Unified Power for this).  And that clawed character could put KA in a Multipower with STR, or with Hand Attack, or with Drain PD (bruising punch). Hearing Flash (ThunderClap) or Explosion Double Knockback Shockwave.

 

11 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Now in simple terms, tell me why the reverse is not also viable? Why can't my 15 STR plus 3d6 HKA hit for 60 STR instead of 4d6 Killing? As you say, the points are the same. If this were possible by RAW, I'd agree that doubling is unnecessary, but I've never seen anyone beside myself make this argument.

 

To me, this says STR increasing HKA falls outside the normal rules.  It's not that HKA doesn't add to STR.  It's that no other attack power can be enhanced by another ability - only HKA can be enhanced and only STR can enhance it.  The doubling rule just caps the free HKA you can have if you have purchased STR.  You don't get the extra HKA unless you also pay for STR, and you only get this benefit from your STR if you buy enough HKA.  Most of these synergies have been removed. HKA/STR has not. Is it balanced?  How often do you see a 15 STR character with a 3d6 HKA or a 60 STR character with a 1d6 HKA?  I saw a lot of the latter in 2e - because in 1e the Bricks normally bought a 1d6 HKA to benefit from the STR adder "for free" with the minimum HKA at that time, and that 1d6 KA was not modified when the first Enemies book was updated to 2e.  This was most obvious for the Monster, who supposedly relied on that KA - but it became a 2d6 KA in second edition.

 

9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Have you found the system broken with how HKA works?  Seems like Hero has cruised along fine with hand to hand killing attacks allowing increased damage from STR since, I dunno, 1st edition?  

 

Years ago, I questioned those vilifying the Stun Lotto.  It had never been an issue in my games.  Lucius, IIRC, pushed me to look at the math.  I did.  The math was clear - the KA was more effective at passing STUN past defenses. Our groups had a four colour approach and didn't use KAs against living targets, just as a matter of course, so it never became visible. Meanwhile, I realized that I was gravitating to KAs for agents precisely because it stood a better chance of passing some STUN through to the Supers.  But we had cruised on just fine with the Stun Lotto since 1e, right?

 

Virtually every change has had its critics and detractors.  STR adding to KAs is no different from DEX adding to SPD and/or CV, Growth or Stretching momentum boosting HTH (but not HKAs) or CON providing more stamina in the form of REC or END.

 

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

Hugh wants the system to be more coherent.  Hand attack is, to all extents and purposes, limited STR.  It adds to STR because it is the same thing doing a limited version of the same thing.  If STR was not in a black box, you would be able to modulate the damage, lifting and other things associated with STR on a character by character basis.  Killing attack is not doing anything that STR does.  The idea that STR adds to the damage is because it is mixing up SFX with mechanics.  It seems obvious to you that a sword should do more damage if someone stronger is using it.  It also makes more sense to me that Mental Blast do more damage because their EGO is high but it doesn't.

 

There is inconsistency in the system, when SFX make a difference to the mechanics and when they do not.  You either agree that you would like a bit more consistency or not and what that would look like but saying that it has been this way since [whenever] doesn't engage that argument.

 

Bingo.  In some games, especially old, rules-lawyer/character advocacy games, maximizing the value of abilities by creative use and interpretation was part of the game.  "Where does it say my Magic Missiles can't target eyebals?"  "I Create Water in his lungs." Hero's "pay for the mechanics" model was very different. If it is logical that your other abilities and SFX should allow you do this other thing, and it has a significant in-game effect, then that logic justifies paying points for that other ability, not getting that other ability for free.  Except for HKAs.

[Hugh Neilson]

13 hours ago, Grailknight said:

As for what worked well about HKA, doubling was added in 2e and was RAW for decades until 6e where it was changed. It says something about doubling that in the very next paragraph it was mentioned as an optional rule for consideration. I don't recall any other instances where Steve Long wavered like that and this is the man who removed Figured Characteristics and eliminated COM.

 

We're at 6e v2 p 99, for anyone trying to follow along.

 

First off, that sidebar suggests inability to

 

Quote

more than double the Damage Classes of his base attack, no matterhow many different methods he uses to add damage

 

Taken exactly as written, that would include combat skill levels (the basis for Deadly Blow et al.), combat maneuvers (martial and otherwise - so much for all those extra Martial Arts DCs) and movement (that would hurt a lot of speedsters).  I note that

 

Quote

the GM typically grants exceptions for Move By/Through and other movement-based attacks, Martial Maneuvers in some campaigns, and the like

 so any cold feet on removing the doubling rule got even colder when considering the doubling rule as a general principal.

 

As well,

 

Quote

An HA usually counts as base STR damage.

 

Further support for HA being limited STR.
 

Quote

Extra DCs bought for Martial Maneuvers count as base damage for unarmed combat. (If a Maneuver’s used to  add damage to a weapon, the weapon is the base damage and the Maneuver affects it according to the standard rule described in the main text.)

 

So we need some more exceptions to the optional rules tacked on to what was a change endeavouring to simplify the "adding damage" rules.  I note that it is also suggested for "heroic campaigns" and real weapons paid for with cash rather than CP, although the example is clearly a Super.  Let's look at that example:

 

Quote

Matterhorn (STR 60) decides to take advantage of the Adding Damage rules. He buys a dagger — HKA ½d6, Armor Piercing (+¼). Using his 60 STR, he can increase the dagger’s damage to 3½d6! Fortunately for the campaign, Matterhorn’s GM is no fool; he recognizes that it’s unbalancingly effective to let a character have an HKA 3½d6 for 6 Character Points. (While it’s true Matterhorn has also paid 50 Character Points for his STR, that has plenty of  usefulness on its own.) He rules that Matterhorn can’t do more than double the DCs of his dagger, so regardless of how much STR he uses it can’t do more than HKA 1d6+1, Armor Piercing damage.

 

so...the first 12 points of STR were useless, and cause no balance issue by a freebie KA adder, but the next 3 STR (if he had a 15 STR), and every point thereafter (if it's higher), were much more useful and can't add to that KA for free without unbalancing the game.  What limitation could Matterhorn take on his +50 STR if it "does not increase HKAs"?

 

In that example, Matterhorn invested 56 points, 50 for STR and 6 for that dagger.  Let's strip out the Focus limitation - it's 1/2d6 AP HKA, sharp fingernails, 12 points, so a total of 62.   Will you let him combine that 1d6+1 AP HKA with a 12d6 STR strike as a Combined Attack?  If not, why not?  A character with a 12d6 Blast and a 1d6+1 AP RKA could make a combined attack.  If he buys a 1d6+1 AP RKA, No Range (a bit pricier at 17 points), now can he use a combined attack?  What about a 1d6+1 AP HKA, No STR Adds (exactly the same mechanical result - how is it "balanced" for these to cost 5 more points than using an HKA with STR adders?  Especially if we "need" the doubling rule for balance.)

 

If you would not allow this, perhaps Matterhorn should also be no fool.  What if he instead spends his points on:

 

+21 STR (so now he has 31);

A Multipower of two fixed slots, +34 STR and a 2d6 AP HKA.

 

That's 37 for the pool + 3 + 4 for the two slots = 44 points + 21 for STR - 65 points rather than 62.  He can have a 65 STR whenever he wants, 5 more than the non-MP build.  He can have a 3 1/2d6 AP HKA. So he has added +5 STR for only 3 points AND can use that full 3 1/2d6 AP HKA that doubling would cap at 1d6+1.

 

Lots of other + STR/Multipower combos could certainly be envisioned.

 

Explain to me how all of this "you can add STR to HKA but only up to doubling it" is creating better balance - and go slowly this time!

[Gauntlet]

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Bingo.  In some games, especially old, rules-lawyer/character advocacy games, maximizing the value of abilities by creative use and interpretation was part of the game.  "Where does it say my Magic Missiles can't target eyebals?"  "I Create Water in his lungs." Hero's "pay for the mechanics" model was very different. If it is logical that your other abilities and SFX should allow you do this other thing, and it has a significant in-game effect, then that logic justifies paying points for that other ability, not getting that other ability for free.  Except for HKAs.

 

So what you are saying is that hand attack is the same thing. There should be no hand attack, you should just buy more STR. I mean if I am a normal with 10 STR and have a 3d6 HA I am doing 5d6 damage, I am getting 2d6 for free.

 

But on a different note, there is a some talking about hero changing so it can sell copies. Which is correct but at the same time, and definitely different than most other games, you can pretty much use any writeup on and version in any other version, as long as you are not worried about cost. This makes it much easier to utilize that old villain you loved for your new game on a newer version. I think that is one of the great things about this game.

[Doc Democracy]

19 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

So what you are saying is that hand attack is the same thing. There should be no hand attack, you should just buy more STR. I mean if I am a normal with 10 STR and have a 3d6 HA I am doing 5d6 damage, I am getting 2d6 for free.

 

He was saying that hand attack is essentially STR (only to increase damage).  As such you have 25 STR but only 10 of that counts for lifting, grabbing etc.  Not 2D6 for free.

 

23 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

you can pretty much use any writeup on and version in any other version, as long as you are not worried about cost. This makes it much easier to utilize that old villain you loved for your new game on a newer version. I think that is one of the great things about this game.

 

To which I can only say, I agree wholeheartedly.