Argument Concerning Desolification

[Gauntlet]

Just wanted to see what peoples' thoughts on this are:

 

If someone (or something) has desolification with the limitation that it does not protect against any attack, does that character have to purchase affects solid to be able to utilize any of their own attacks while desolid?

Edited June 24, 2023 by Gauntlet
Typo

[Doc Democracy]

RAW, yes.  You do not get an advantage "affect solid" by taking a limitation.  I might, as a GM, agree to interacts with attacks as normal, as +0 limitation, as it probably cancels out.

[tombrown803]

as Doc said by RAW yes, but there's an optional roll in one of the Advanced Player's Guides that if Desolidification gives no protection from attacks then you don't have to buy the affect solid advantage

[LoneWolf]

As a general rule I would say it should.  Even if the desolidification does not prevent attacks it can still be used to give you some protection.  For example, a desloid character could hide in wall and attack while partially concealed. If I can gain a major bonus to DCV by only exposing a small portion of my body I am still benefiting from desolidificaiton even when I am subject to attacks.   A lot of it is going to depend on special effect, but for the most part if the character can significantly reduce the chance of them taking damage, they should be paying for that by purchasing the advantage on their attack.  

 

If the character is subject to all attacks and gains no combat benefit from being desolid I could see allowing the attack to ignore the need for the advantage.  Otherwise, they should pay to be able to attack while desolid.  
 

[Gauntlet]

But if it is the case stating that if you have Desolidification that does not give any protection then wouldn't the limitation be more than a -1 as it is making your character gain no additional defense with no means of attacking back (without paying an incredible amount of points and END that is - as a simple 8d6 normal attack would cost 120 points and cost 12 END)?

 

As for using a wall as cover, any character can find and utilize cover with things as simple as doorways or a car or anything else.

 

Note: I just wanted to let everyone be sure that this is just a discussion for fun, not an argument.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

If a character can stand inside a wall and only expose the hand making the attack, they are getting more benefit than others can get out of the wall.  I can purchase a penetrating sense and take no penalty from being inside the wall.  That character should pay to be able to do that.  The character that can move through barriers that are not solid like the T1000 in T2 can still be attacked when they are desolid.  That character I could see not having to pay extra to do that. 

 

If you can attack you should be able to be attacked back.  A normal character cannot stand behind a 10’ stone wall and fire through it.  They have to be able to fire over or around the wall in order to attack.  A character with desolidification can usually stand behind or in the 10’ stone wall and fire through it.  The wall hinders the first character, but not the second.  

 

A lot of it is going to depend on the special effect of the desolidification and how much protection it gives you.   The character that cannot hide in the wall is not getting as much benefit from the desolidification as the character that can.  The first character has to pay more for the ability to attack his opponents because he can do so from a much more favorable circumstance.   
 

[Hugh Neilson]

First, I see some of the problem here being that Desolid combines multiple effects, being to pass through solid objects and complete immunity to many attacks, at the cost of being unable to attack. Then we tacked on "unless he puts a big advantage on his attacks".  ASW gets around the limitation imposed on the invulnerability.  It seems like losing the limitation on the invulnerability should increase the cost (remove the limitation) on the invulnerability, not increase the cost of the attack. 

 

Consider, say, TurtleGirl.  She can withdraw into her shell for massive defenses, with the Limitation that she can't attack while turtled.  If she had one attack she could use while turtled, would we think she should have a lower limitation on the defenses, or an advantage on the attacks.  Or should she have no limitation on her defenses, and instead have "not while turtled" on all of her attacks?  That seems like the Desolid definition - all attacks are "limited" to not work while desolid, and that +2 advantage really buys off that limitation.

 

48 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

If a character can stand inside a wall and only expose the hand making the attack, they are getting more benefit than others can get out of the wall.  I can purchase a penetrating sense and take no penalty from being inside the wall.  That character should pay to be able to do that.  The character that can move through barriers that are not solid like the T1000 in T2 can still be attacked when they are desolid.  That character I could see not having to pay extra to do that.

 

He did pay extra.  He had to pay for the Penetrating sense. A character with that same Penetrating sense and a mental or indirect attack could also attack from behind the wall. Here again, though, Indirect applies to the attack, supporting ASW applying to the attack. He could also buy Tunnelling and hide within the wall while attacking, either with an Indirect attack, or by exposing only a tiny portion of his body.  The only other example I can think of where the attack costs more is Transdimensional.  Maybe Desolid is a limited form of Extradimensional Movement, or an expanded form of Indirect.  It functions like both. 

 

48 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

If you can attack you should be able to be attacked back.  A normal character cannot stand behind a 10’ stone wall and fire through it.  They have to be able to fire over or around the wall in order to attack.  A character with desolidification can usually stand behind or in the 10’ stone wall and fire through it.  The wall hinders the first character, but not the second. 

 

As set out above, the inability to see through the wall hinders both, and there are other ways of circumventing the wall.  A teleporter or a desolid character could both "dive for cover" or move to hide behind the wall.

 

Perhaps the answer is to reduce the price of ASW commensurate with the reduced protection from attacks.  Indirect seems like a reasonable pricing model.

 

[Gauntlet]

16 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If a character can stand inside a wall and only expose the hand making the attack, they are getting more benefit than others can get out of the wall.  I can purchase a penetrating sense and take no penalty from being inside the wall.  That character should pay to be able to do that.  The character that can move through barriers that are not solid like the T1000 in T2 can still be attacked when they are desolid.  That character I could see not having to pay extra to do that. 

 

If you can attack you should be able to be attacked back.  A normal character cannot stand behind a 10’ stone wall and fire through it.  They have to be able to fire over or around the wall in order to attack.  A character with desolidification can usually stand behind or in the 10’ stone wall and fire through it.  The wall hinders the first character, but not the second.  

 

A lot of it is going to depend on the special effect of the desolidification and how much protection it gives you.   The character that cannot hide in the wall is not getting as much benefit from the desolidification as the character that can.  The first character has to pay more for the ability to attack his opponents because he can do so from a much more favorable circumstance.   
 

If your desolidification does not protect against attacks, then to be able to attack someone you would have to be able to attack back. Now you might be able to get some cover but that is no different than anyone else utilizing cover such as a large rock, or a doorway, or edge of a wall. So much of the time there would not be a more favorable circumstance.

 

In order for someone to attack through a wall they would have to have the indirect advantage on the attack and a since allowing them to be able to see target. Just because you have desolidification does not mean that your attacks go through solid objects.

 

I do have one question through, when using Desolidification do you have to have it on the entire phase or could you use it for part of a phase. For example, would you be able to in a single-phase turn Desolidification on, move through a wall, turn it off, and then attack?

[LoneWolf]

A character with desolidification can still be partially in the wall and still attack.   If I have a fire attack I shoot from my hand I could expose only my hand when using the fire attack, the rest of the character could still be in the wall.  If I don’t have a sense that can penetrate the wall all I would need to do is to stick part of my head and a hand out to attack.   If there is not a wall I could also stand behind another character and use them as cover and fire through their chest. 

 

If you are going to rule that you have to be completely out of something and cannot use desolidification to gain a defensive advantage I could see not requiring the advantage.   Even this is going to depend on the special effect of the desolidification. 

 

Maybe Hugh is right and we need to reduce the value of the advantage.  I could see reducing it to a +1/4 if the desolidification does not stop damage.  There are a lot of advantages that vary based on other aspect of the game.  Affect Solid may need to be one of those.

[Gauntlet]

Can desolidification be turned on and turned off in the same phase. For this I mean can a character go desolid, move through a wall, and then turn desolidification off and attack? Or is it with Desolidificaton do you have to turn it on and leave it on for the entire phase?

[Doc Democracy]

I would allow it, I would even allow flicking desolid on and off as the SFX of a block, or dodge.  I would not allow you to switch it off, attack, then switch it on.

[Gauntlet]

I probably would allow someone who has Deslolification that is not a defense to switch it on and then off. Not to avoid attacks, but to move through something so they can attack someone.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I would allow it, I would even allow flicking desolid on and off as the SFX of a block, or dodge.  I would not allow you to switch it off, attack, then switch it on.

 

Technically you cannot do anything after an attack according to the rules, your phase ends then.  But you can abort to use a power defensively, I wonder if this would qualify? 

[unclevlad]

Why should Desolid be any different from any other power?

 

If the GM wants to rule that all powers can be switched *twice* in a phase, then I'd allow it.  Otherwise, not.

 

And, clearly, a precondition here is that I'd only consider it when there isn't some limitation circumvention going on.  With Desolid, it's the need to have APW on something.  Invis with the classic D&D limitation of "can't attack while Invis" would be another obvious one.  

 

And CRT's point is worth noting.  What would the bounds be, for what would be allowed?  If you can activate a power, what powers can those be?  This is threatening a pretty nasty can of worms.

 

Also note another implicit limiting factor:  if the desolid and the attack are in a multipower, such that only 1 can be used at a time...then you can't swap active points in the MP in that manner.  

 

Given ALL the problems with it, I basically stopped even thinking of using standard Desolid in MOST cases.  APG's Alternate Desolid avoids the worst of the issues;  I also built Diffuse Body to address aspects of Alt Desolid I really dislike.  It's 8 points per level, with a max of 6 levels.  Benefits are +1 DC physical and energy damage negation, and +2 to Contortionist rolls, to move through tiny openings.  Side aspect is decreased mass;  each level means your mass is 30% of what it was.  4 levels means you're pretty much the same density as air.  I also have a side perk, at 5 levels:  flight and leap gain No Gravity Penalty.  Note that, unlike alternate desolid, this mass reduction does NOT mean increased KB.  I will use standard Desolid for its movement aspect...no Affects Phys World, no reduced END or even Costs END only to activate...so it's a pretty draining power, by choice.    

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

On 9/7/2023 at 6:27 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

.  But you can abort to use a power defensively, I wonder if this would qualify? 

 

 

I have allowed it on several occasions, so I have to say that I don't have a problem with the idea.  As Hugh points out, Desolid is often treated as "invulnerable," I can't make "I turn on my invulnerability" not  seem like taking a defensive action.   

 

As to the overall question: Desolid: no invulnerability and affecting the solid world--  hypotheticals are as infinite the imagination, making trying to adress every single one of them an exercise in counting hydrogen atoms in the universe.  To carry us in a different direction, I am going to offer some practicals:

 

Golem, Muddd (sic), Abra Cadaver (sic), Plasma, and Resilient.  These are, upon searching my memory, five (of many) characters who had this exact limitation on their Desolid.

 

The entire character sheet is unnecessary; what is important here is that each one of these characters used this same power build to indicate a malleable or blob form-  a mud form; that's a handy word for it.  It meant they could strain themselves through chain link fences, ooze under doors, pour themselves down storm drains, etc: they could pass through small openings or reasonably porous surfaces (before anyone starts discussing the gaps between electron shells, etc, let me note that the general rule of thumb was that your eyeball had to fit through the opening.  I preferred that your heart fit through, but absolutely nothing your eyeball couldn't fit through).

 

Abra Cadaver was a 1e Charcter (mine, actually), as was Muddd (not mine).  Golem was a construct for clay golems we used running fantasy games with 2e Champions, and the other two were 2e supers.

 

Again, the important part here is that they had Desolid: does not protect from attack or damage.  They wanted to be able to affect the solid world while in mud form.

 

My 1e GM called it a wash; no discount, but free "affect solid."  Muddd's GM did something similar.  I have always done it as well.

 

In practical use, I have never seen anyone want this construct and still want to become truly, ephemerally intangible.  No one ever presented a character who was perfectly vulnerable but still able to phase into solid granite so they could somehow attack from within the wall targets that they can't actually percieve (or aim at)  if they had, I likely would have dealt with along the lines of "dump your unspent EP toward the "affect solid" advantage, and no less than half of any earned EP goes into it until it is paid for, or we can rework something after the game.  Your choice" because I am easy to get along with.

 

Yes: hypothetically, it is possible to abuse this.  Practically, I have never had anyone try.  Realistically: I cannot imagine a GM let these hypothetical abuses stand long enough to be a problem.  Characters that exist in a vacuum will never be a problem, and those that get to the table tend to be scrutinized.  Not all abusive builds get spotted, but if they pop up in the game, the GM tends to handle it.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Ninja-Bear]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:53 AM, Doc Democracy said:

I would allow it, I would even allow flicking desolid on and off as the SFX of a block, or dodge.  I would not allow you to switch it off, attack, then switch it on.

We always used extra DCV levels to represent that. I’ve always used Armor to represent a partial Desolid body.

 

10 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

I probably would allow someone who has Deslolification that is not a defense to switch it on and then off. Not to avoid attacks, but to move through something so they can attack someone.

You could by Tunneling to represent that or in 6th Alternate Movement would work.

 

10 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Technically you cannot do anything after an attack according to the rules, your phase ends then.  But you can abort to use a power defensively, I wonder if this would qualify? 

And I would allow it too.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Ninja-Bear

[LoneWolf]

You cannot abort to any action after attacking or performing a full phase action until the next segment.   

[DentArthurDent]

6E1 192

Doesn’t Protect Against Damage (-1): ….. this Limitation doesn’t grant the character an Affects Physical World Advantage for free.

 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, DentArthurDent said:

6E1 192

Doesn’t Protect Against Damage (-1): ….. this Limitation doesn’t grant the character an Affects Physical World Advantage for free.

 

 

 

You are the best kind of correct, Sir, but there is also the oft-repeated "common sense / dramatic sense" rule as well.  I just call it a wash and dont adjust pricing:  Desolid: no invulnerability; affects solid. +0.

 

 

 

[Gauntlet]

8 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

You could by Tunneling to represent that or in 6th Alternate Movement would work.

 

Problem is that Tunneling is a movement power so and you would only be able to move about one or two inches if the wall is not very thick.

 

But I guess it would depend on the special effect. So I guess I change my mind, Tunneling might be a good way to be able to move through walls and still attack.

40 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

You are the best kind of correct, Sir, but there is also the oft-repeated "common sense / dramatic sense" rule as well.  I just call it a wash and dont adjust pricing:  Desolid: no invulnerability; affects solid. +0.

 

Of course that would be much cheaper as Affect Physical World is a +2 Advantage on every attack.

[unclevlad]

Also, adjusting Tunneling to work the way you want, is a mess.  

 

51 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

You are the best kind of correct, Sir, but there is also the oft-repeated "common sense / dramatic sense" rule as well.  I just call it a wash and dont adjust pricing:  Desolid: no invulnerability; affects solid. +0.

 

You can if you want...but there is an explicit Selective Desolid advantage in 6E.  It's +1 1/2, and its entire purpose is to waive Affects Physical World across the board.  That's WAY too much free for me.

 

Desolid is simply a MESS.  It's a great example of why massive power offset by massive limits DOES NOT WORK in most cases...particularly when you try to bypass some or all of that massive power.  Any attempt to adjust things breaks down.  Any time you think you need to make massive changes?  That's a big STOP! sign in my book...the baseline effect is WRONG.  Given, as Hugh points out, that Desolid has 3 separate near-absolutes...pass through anything, can't be affected by anything, can't affect anything...it's HARD!!! to adjust one independent of the others.  I'm OK with Affects Phys World because it's a full +2...and it's on every power where you want to use it.  This has huge ripple effects.  Want it in an MP?  The reserve size skyrockets, the slot costs go up, the END costs become HUGE.  I'm NOT all that fond of Selective Desolid.  It's often cheaper, it's a blanket cheat, the END issue can be trivialized CHEAP...Costs END only to activate...which, gee, you do on 12, right?  Granted that it's on 40 base points, so there are builds where APW is cheaper.  This is the easiest of the 3 to address.  

 

So...IMO, if you're gonna try removing ANY ONE of the 3...then do not use Desolid as a basis.  Use APG's alternate desolid.  Or better yet, build your own power that does what YOU want...without the absolutes that break the underlying system.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Forgive the lack of quotes for relevant responses; multi-quote is difficult at best working from a phone.  >:/

 

Anyway, let's go:

 

What is the value of Invulnerable to All but a tiny handful of things?  Given that you can spend 75 points on Damage Reduction and not get Invulnerable, a hundred points on Damage Reduction and not get invulnerable, or both an not actually be invulnerable--

 

"Well, Duke, there is simulated Invulnerable, and when get all meta and determine that there are campaign limits and as we approach or break through that cap--"--  Sure; you are right.

 

  Simulated hand-waved close-enough invulnerability, but it _isn't_ the actual Invulnerability you get with Desolid.

 

So it must be-  if we want to keep believing that points mean something in regard to balance, we can reasonably claim that the character givibg up his invulnerability is "giving up" one-hundred and seventy-five points or more worth perfect defense.

 

I am not going to lose any sleep over not charging him an extra thirty points on his energy blast to be able to use it while he is semi-gelatinous.

 

I am just not. 

 

As far as adding even more complexity with newer and newer advantages from newer and newer books-  as absolutely politely as possible:  No.  Myself and still a few of my players have been building exactly the concepts we want to build for forty years or so, and so far, we have done it without a dazzling new array of hyper-specific advantages and limitations and hair-splitting.

 

The time may come that only a new thing from the latest issue can address a problem with a desired build.  I am not psychic; I can't say that won't happen.  I can say it hasn't yet, so I haven't had reason to do it.  I need a bit more "than a new thing exists" to be convinced that the new thing is necessary.  It is just me and my way  of looking at things.  It works out well enough for me: it kept my from being one of the dozens of people all over the globe who bought a Zune.

 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

If he's giving up 175 points of defenses, then why doesn't it cost him 175 points when he does have it?  You're really only making the case, to me, that Desolid has ALWAYS been broken...it's NEVER fit, because it's such a narrative-oriented power.  I'll even grant that all the tweaks have been misguided...because they've been trying to convert a narrative power into more of a quantitative one.  

 

If you want a power that simply lets you pass through any material, then define that...with a reasonable price for the utility.  It'd be the analog to Fully Penetrative in 6E, or N-Ray Perception in 5E.  It lets you focus on that aspect specifically. It's not worth 40 points...heck, all I gotta do in 6E, to get at least 90% of the value, is to buy Fully Penetrative for the Sight Group, Night Vision, and some Teleport...now I've got a targeting sense, so my teleport's trivial.  Oh, and it's pretty easy to take people with me, for not much, if I want that.  Plus, Fully Penetrative has sweet value on its own.  So, OK, passing through almost any material, at a rate given by your movement power...25 points seems good to me.  The standard exception language remains intact.  

[Ninja-Bear]

I don’t have a problem with Desolid as Invulnerable . But to take a limitation so you have an advantage? That is going against the spirit of the rule. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Ninja-Bear

[Duke Bushido]

On 9/8/2023 at 11:15 AM, DentArthurDent said:

6E1 192

Doesn’t Protect Against Damage (-1): ….. this Limitation doesn’t grant the character an Affects Physical World Advantage for free.

 

 

Hold that thought.

 

On 9/8/2023 at 7:58 PM, Duke Bushido said:

What is the value of Invulnerable to All but a tiny handful of things? 

 

 

Now we know.  According to 6e1, p192, it is exactly 20 points (assuming Desolid is still 40 pts in 6e).

 

 

On 9/8/2023 at 8:35 PM, unclevlad said:

If he's giving up 175 points of defenses, then why doesn't it cost him 175 points when he does have it?  You're really only making the case, to me, that Desolid has ALWAYS been broken...it's NEVER fit,

 

 

I am sorry you feel that way.  Seriously; I am.  Because I am making the case to me and to anyone willing to really think it over that this is just one more example that continuing to think that any sort of "points equal balance" equation idea exists anywhere in this game is utter nonsense to the non-believers and borderline religious fervor to those who can't let go in spite of the evidence.  Six editions into it, and these "problems" and discussions about them haven't slowed down even minutely.

 

"Desolid: can't pass through solid objects" should be worth a -1 as well, kind of checking the box of "yep.  20 points to be invulnerable to everything."  I would skip straight over Damage Reduction and pick this up in a hurry.

 

 

So far as I know, no one does that.  There is a reason, no doubt, and I _suspect_--  as in I cannot confirm and have little data to go by but I _suspect_ that reason is "eh...  I dont think the GM is going to let that fly...."

 

And it is precisely that reason that I find discussions that legitimize edge and corner cases as real potential problems a bit baffling:  in order to take them seriously, you have to accept either that GMs are drooling morons and as qualified to run a game as Ray Charles is to deal Blackjack, _or_  you weren't taking the discussion seriously from the outset and the whole thing is an exercise in wasting your own time.

 

As I have recently run afoul of a poorly-chosen-words  situation with someone I keep in the highest of esteem, I want to take a minute to remind folks that I do _not_ sarcasm, and that all of the above (and whatever brain flakes fall out below) are said with the _highest_ regard for everyone participating or following along quietly.

 

I usually don't even chime into these things (because seriously:  as someone who reads technical manuals for fun, it is entirely possible that I have bumped onto the spectrum a time or two; I don't really know), but I find the requirement to participate--  you either accept that these characters-from-a-vacuum _could_ appear and run wild at a table, _or_ that you are wasting your own time--- I find both positions unsettling and equally-difficult to adopt.

 

The exceptions-- and I can't really help myself; I have _tried_--  is when Hugh participates, because not only are things going to get extra-super mathy (usually), but Hugh has a unique ability to discuss something for as long as you have unresolved issues, and never fails-- no matter how tedious it must get for him-- to be as absolutely civil to you as you are to him.  It is a rare talent (I don't have it), and it adds a reward for thinking things through with him: an epiphany either way, even if you ultimately disagree with his position- that is extremely difficult to pass up. 

 

 

On 9/8/2023 at 8:35 PM, unclevlad said:

 

because it's such a narrative-oriented power.  I'll even grant that all the tweaks have been misguided...because they've been trying to convert a narrative power into more of a quantitative one.  

 

If you are really up to soliciting thoughts on the brokenness of Desolidification, my own thoughts are that it was considerably less problematic when it was a Movement Power.  That regulated the ability to pass through various barriers, and even mandates some sort of concurrent life support if you intended to pass through something that was going to take longer than you could hold your breath (because that very much could happen).

 

It made the way Desolid works now (I can fly through 30 meters of unobtanium in a mere Phase (or less, even!) way more expensive than 40 pts.  Certainly, that in itself doesn't solve all the problems, but it means that someone passing through a formidible barrier was out of play for a phase or three.  Sure, he wasn't getting shot, but he wasn't doing any shooting, either.

 

As it is currently, using characters from the void, I have to pay- what is it currently?  Someone above said +2, I think (sorry, but this really is tedious on a phone)- three times as much per power that I want to use on a target.

 

Why does this apply to mental powers?  There is zero physical component there: they aren't brain powers, so an extra-soft brain shouldn't affect them.  Not only does it _not_ mean you can't presence attack (and why not?  That is as valid an attack as a super-specific Mind Control: "Be impressed" or "cower before me!"), but it can even _aid_ a Presence attack!  However, it does mean that you can't mental attack.

 

 

Suppose my power is "gun."  I have found a Judge Dredd Lawgiver (one of a very few comic books that I _am_ familiar with).  If I buy five points of Telekinesis: Fine Manipulation, Affects Solid, can I use it to fire my gun?

 

Why or why not?

 

This is specifically a Judge Dredd gun: depending on the writer, it has between six and eight different kinds of attack.  It's a genuine multipower full of Ultras.  Do I buy the Focus as effects solids?  Do I buy each slot as Affects Solid?  What if I only buy two slots as effects solid?  Moreover, if I bought it as a focus and I have also bought TK: STR 5, Fine manipulation, why do I have to pay anything extra on the focus?  I can even kick in "real weapon" to make sure that we have a solid physical object.

 

There comes a point where there are enough work-arounds for a rule that the rule loses relevance as anything other than a capistan around which the tape must be threaded to ensure it doesn't snag on its way out of the play/record head and into the receiving reel--  Good Lord!  How old am I?!

 

Anyway, again:  for anyone who is a true believer that points have some meaning beyond slowing character progression, we have established that Ultimate Defense is 20 points, meaning all other defenses are grossly overpriced.     Even so, does someone with a theoretical character with 150 pts rPD and rED have to pay extra for his attacks?

 

Why or not?

 

Does a guy with 100d6 of Damage Negation (yes; we already know that no such character would _ever_ land on a table and stay there except for some sort of goofy April Fools one-off, but that is exactly the sorts of characters we are discussing, ultimately) have to pay extra for his attacks?  He is just as well-defended as is the guy with Desolidification, who _does_ have to pay extra.

 

On 9/8/2023 at 8:35 PM, unclevlad said:

 

If you want a power that simply lets you pass through any material, then define that...with a reasonable price for the utility.  It'd be the analog to Fully Penetrative in 6E, or N-Ray Perception in 5E.  It lets you focus on that aspect specifically. It's not worth 40 points...heck, all I gotta do in 6E, to get at least 90% of the value, is to buy Fully Penetrative for the Sight Group, Night Vision, and some Teleport...now I've got a targeting sense, so my teleport's trivial.  Oh, and it's pretty easy to take people with me, for not much, if I want that.  Plus, Fully Penetrative has sweet value on its own.  So, OK, passing through almost any material, at a rate given by your movement power...25 points seems good to me.  The standard exception language remains intact.  

 

You are exactly correct: we could use a Power that lets you move through matter, and even possibly in a scaled way.  We had that with Desolid, and at some point during 3e or the creation of 4e, it got "fixed" into what we have today.

 

You are also correct that if we don't have exactly the right power for our needs, we can use existing elements to  create that power.

 

If we want a mud form, we can start with any power we want; I chose Desolid as it provided the closest thing to the final goal, and tweaked it.  Since the character isn't exactly intangible, I selected "cannot move through solid objects."  Why?  Because the character is still solid; he's just able to assume an amorphous nature that lets him,slide through _some_ barriers.

 

Sure- four or five editions too late (for me, at least), Steve bops along and creates tons of new rules and modifiers for stretching that suggest stretching might work, but well--

 

There is a separation of SFX and mechanics.  To this day I prefer the desolid mechanics (I am using an older edition, where Desolid is still a movement power) to the stretching mechanics, and have built and GMed for stretching characters who gained their mud forms with the Desolid build.  (One of the characters mentioned a couple of posts ago was a Plastic Man type).

 

I have something that has worked for forty years.  Without any intent of derision, I really don't care that the new guy in charge of the rules disagrees; he can run his game any way he wants to, the same as me or anyone else.  (Given his creative output, does he actually have time to _enjoy_ the games?!  That...   That would kind of suck.....)

 

 

On 9/8/2023 at 8:40 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

I don’t have a problem with Desolid as Invulnerable . But to take a limitation so you have an advantage? That is going against the spirit of the rule. 

 

 

Okay; disclosure first:

 

I do not know if this rule still exist, but in all editions 4e and back there was a rule that specified that a power with a modifier was _not the original power_, but a whole new thing that worked within the bounds of the limitations and advantages and the agreement hammered out between GM and Player.

 

We wanted mud form, and we started with Desolid and removed the diaphanous ephemeral intangibility aspect.  The character was solid and squishy: jell-O, if you will; (if anyone is curious, it is medically and nutritionally considered a) liquid.  If I have TK, and I scoop out the contents of a swimming pool, I do not have to buy affects solid to dump it on an opponent.  If I have "water blast" for 12d6, I do not have to buy affects solid to hit them with it.

 

I didn't figure - and still don't-  that being tangible and one-hundred percent vulnerable to any attack from the "solid world" has any justification to mandate an upcharge to fight back.

 

 

Or, and I am really, truly sorry for anyone who followed this all the way to the bottom, because it finally hit me how to sum this up much more  concisely:

 

If you have a total of 100 points of powers that you wish to use on a target while Desolid, at +2, they cost you 300 points.  The extra 200 points you must pay is the "fair play" penalty you have to pay for what the rules have defined as a twenty point defensive power.

 

I do not believe-  and I am not certain that I could be persuaded to believe- that any character who has voluntarily given up that defense should still have to pay that penalty because it is somehow more fair.

 

Unless, of course, points will never, _ever_ be any indicator of balance.

 

 

That took over an hour on a phone screen (so I am not deleting it, in spite of having found  a way to say it more concisely           ), and my daughter has just beaten Horizon and is in a celebratory mood, so please forgive me; I am going to take a break from all this for a bit.

 

 

Have fun!

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Duke Bushido