Argument Concerning Desolification

[Hugh Neilson]

On 9/8/2023 at 12:09 PM, Gauntlet said:

 

Problem is that Tunneling is a movement power so and you would only be able to move about one or two inches if the wall is not very thick.

 

But I guess it would depend on the special effect. So I guess I change my mind, Tunneling might be a good way to be able to move through walls and still attack.

 

Of course that would be much cheaper as Affect Physical World is a +2 Advantage on every attack.

 

This highlights an issue with Desolid. You basically get a variant of Tunnelling that ignores defenses (so Tunnelling NND, if you will) and leaves no hole behind you, plus invulnerability to many attack forms, with the limitation that you cannot interact with the solid world.

 

So why does the limitation on that tunnelling and and invulnerability increase the cost of your attacks, instead of reducing the limitation and increasing the cost of your Desolid?  Well, because we accept this simple compromise for game balance purposes.  Given that, simply setting a variant Desolid that removes both the attack immunity and the inability to interact with the solid world seems like a pretty practical approach.

 

We've already abandoned earlier editions' rules that you can fly and "swim" in desolid form, but can't run, leap or glide.

 

For 40 points, I am thinking you could get a decent "pass through walls" power constructed with Tunnelling, so 40 points for "Phase through solid objects but attacks still hurt you and you can still attack" does not seem unreasonable.

[Doc Democracy]

I just wrote a post talking about instant change.  I think Desolid has a big relationship with it.  It is a black box to allow players to have something cool.  It was fine for years but the more us geeks talked about it, demanding standard pricing for things the more the non-standard nature of its existence became exposed.

 

Even just the fact that it is a standard price.  It should probably vary its cost depending on the starting points of characters in the campaign.  Limitation valuers should also be campaign dependent.  I think it probably is now too cheap, a 40 point power that cost 8 END was a big investment for a character built on 150 points+points for disadvantages.  For 6E characters, 40 points that costs 4 END is not really the same investment.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

@Doc Democracy, pretty much any fixed cost ability has that issue.  Damage Reduction is a good example - the more STUN you would otherwise take, the more Defenses effectively added by Reduction.

[Doc Democracy]

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

@Doc Democracy, pretty much any fixed cost ability has that issue.  Damage Reduction is a good example - the more STUN you would otherwise take, the more Defenses effectively added by Reduction.

 

Yeah, I have a problem with that kind of fixed value power.  I reckon the cost should be based on the campaign limits, possibly with a floor and ceiling values, rather than being absolutely fixed.  The reason I mention floors and ceilings is because, no matter how many points players are given, some things are not worth that much (like life support and enhanced senses) while others should probably not go below a certain value (like desolid).

All begins to sound a bit complicate though, doesnt it?  🙂

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

It we think back far enough, Damage Resistance was flat cost (15 points for half defenses against KA BOD; 30 for full defenses; with either granting full defenses against KA STUN) and Armor cost 5 CP per +3 defenses.  Blend with that 1 CP/defense for force fields, but they cost END.  We've now got Armor that costs 3 CP per 2 defense; make it Costs END if you want an old-school force field, so repriced Armor and a higher AP force field, so pricing is consistent.

[Gauntlet]

Of course, I hate that they took away Force Field as it makes their base value much higher, making it where you must have a much lower value of defense if you are using a multipower.

[Doc Democracy]

37 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Of course, I hate that they took away Force Field as it makes their base value much higher, making it where you must have a much lower value of defense if you are using a multipower.

 

I think that I usually bought my force field down to 0 END so often that I have not really felt that particular change - my 20PD/20ED Force Field (0 END) always did cost me 60 points.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke Bushido ok so you and I are on the same page. Does Mudman with Desolid and limitation doesn’t go through solid objects (-1) correct? I have seen that before. Now the issue is with this limited Desolid, is he (or it?) immune to damage? Can it in return do damage while Desolid? I noticed that you compared the limited Desolid to Damage Reduction. 
 

Damage Resistance per 4th you must buy Stun and Body separately and also Physical and Energy so a modest 25% DR Normal Physical 10pts, DR Normal Energy 10pts, DR Resistant Physical 15 pts, DR Energy 15 pts for a total of 50 pts.  So if you’re giving away immunity for a limitation?  That’s not in the spirit of the rules.  Fwiw, if Mudman is Desolid and can go through spaces and can’t hit someone else in the semi-liquid form and that’s because of the limitation, I have no problem with that.
 

 

@Doc Democracy, I think the reason why Desolid became fixed because before 4th, you may not know how much Desolid to buy. Desolid was based on Body spent to go through correct? Even though Hero System rarely uses absolutes, it probably made more sense for Desolid to be an absolute.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Ninja-Bear

[Doc Democracy]

15 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

 

@Doc Democracy, I think the reason why Desolid became fixed because before 4th, you may not know how much Desolid to buy. Desolid was based on Body spent to go through correct? Even though Hero System rarely uses absolutes, it probably made more sense for Desolid to be an absolute

 

We often ascribe too much wisdom to the people who laid down the foundations of a system.  It us like when you grow up and realise that your parents never really knew all the answers, they were just trying to do their best at the time.

 

To me, being desolidified is a combination of effects.  One is the ability to travel through solid objects leaving behind no trace of passage.  That could easily be Tunneling with invisible effects.  One is that damaging effects don't affect them.  We have a number of powers that might be used for that.  There is nothing fundamental about the power except an absolute effect that we don't hold for anything else having.

 

As for not knowing how much desolid you want, have a look at the table of materials.  You want to pass through them all? Buy the relevant level of Tunnelling.  Link the defence to the Tunnelling (or vice versa), make it all drain together.  Call it phantasmal form.

 

More true to the HERO axioms and it avoids all the issues of having to buy affects solid on your attacks (unless you take that as a disadvantage on the defences).

[Doc Democracy]

How odd.  My very first post on these boards, 20 years ago was about desolidification and invulnerability!

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

23 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Duke Bushido ok so you and I are on the same page. Does Mudman with Desolid and limitation doesn’t go through solid objects (-1) correct?

 

That is correct:  in the examples I listed, each character used it to create a gelatinous or semi-gelatinous form.  Strain himself through a chain link fence or a chickenwire barrier; no problem.  Through a solid object?  No; not at all.  The general rule of thumb I gave was "anywhere you can fit your eyeball through."

 

 

 

23 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Now the issue is with this limited Desolid, is he (or it?) immune to damage?

 

No.  I said as much above, but in fairness to everyone, I said _a lot_, so the details may have gotten lost.

 

At least, no; not if he wants to be able to attack without buying the Affects Solid advantage.  Of course, he is still free to buy conventional defenses that are only accessible in this form, but if he has declined the Invulnerable that comes with Desolid, he cannot then find a way to back into it.  

 

 

23 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Can it in return do damage while Desolid?

 

In the examples given?  Yes; most definitely.

 

Why?  Two concurrent things:

1)  the character defines this form as a super-pliable self due to whatever SFX they have chose.  That is to say that they are still interacting with the "solid world" and are not truly intangible.

 

2) the character has voluntarily surrendered the invulnerability Desolid offers.

 

The mindset here is that the invulnerability is derived from the idea that if you are not interacting with the physical world, then it should not be able to interact with you.  If you remove that aspect, the power becomes just a new way for you to interact with the physical world.  If you are interacting with the physical world, well, then it can interact back at you. 

 

As to why, in these cases, I allow "affects solid" as a default, we will need to first answer this:

 

 

23 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

 

I noticed that you compared the limited Desolid to Damage Reduction. 
 

 

Yes, but I was not clear enough with my intent in that, given the way you appear to have understood it.  Let my try to tidy up my path a bit, if you can bear with me:

 

 

Even after I attempted to explain that in the cases I was seeing as permissible (and I did fudge for my own convenience by using cases of which I was already aware), the characters had voluntarily surrendered the invulnerability _and_ the pass through solid barriers aspect, so yes; I simply let them have "Affects Solid" as the default condition of this build: no advantage needed.

 

This was met with at least one instance of "no; you shouldn't do that because that is a very expensive advantage and no one should have it for free."

 

I took this to mean one of three things:

 

Those of this position missed where I had said these characters opted out of invulnerable,

 

Those of this position did not grasp why the Affects Solid advantage is so outrageously expensive,

 

Or

 

Those of this position expected that I was somehow gaining something worth a couple hundred points in this exchange.

 

I say a couple hundred points because-- well, this doesn't sound like an unreasonable character:

 

RKA: 60 pts

Energy Blast: 60 pts.

 

With no other modifiers, that is 120 points of offensive powers.  Bought at +2, that is a 360 it expenditure, or 240 "extra points" required to make it "fair" for my character to have Desolid.

 

So what kind of defenses can you get for that sort of pointage?   75 points of Damage Reduction still leaves a considerable bit of change to spend.   More than enough to snag a hundred points of resistant defense.  

 

So if you are a "points equals fair" guy (and, without venom, I cannot fathom why, especially after years and years of discussions here, anyone can still seriously entertain this notion, but it is as entrenched as mitochondria in animal cells), then you should be expecting to gain a rough equivalent in defense due to your Desolid.

 

You don't, though.  You get so much _more_ than that!  You get actual invulnerability to everything except a common SFX _or_ a handful of esoteric ones.  You are still free to buy additional defenses for "only against x," but that is a different conversation, of course.  Although it is worth noting that not only _can_ you do that, with a 240 point defense budget, you can certainly afford to so it, because _by the book_  (Desolid: cannot pass through walls: -1. ), that almost-perfect invulnerability is _20 points!  Twenty!  That's it!

 

So on the surface, the argument is to balance 20 points of defense should cost 240 extra points on your offense (which, again, demonstrates that even the rules do not (and arguably never have) support the idea that equal points enforce equal balance).

 

So if it isn't about points, then what is being balanced by this outrageous upcharge?  The only other thing left is the superior defenses offered by the Desolidification.  This seems fair, in a meta or narrative sense: if most enemies cannot touch you, it seems reasonably fair that either you cannot touch them or that you have precious few options, or a variety of weak options.  Paying three times as much to touch your oponents will enforce at least one of those options.

 

It should also be noted that the only way to enforce this balance / fairness is to make the character, in this example, pay six times as much for his two attacks as he paid for this single defense.

 

Again, this is the rules openly demonstrating that actual play balance has _nothing_ to so with a points / points relationship.  At higher power levels-  with characters throwing around five or six offensive powers, this gets even more out of skew--

 

And as an aside, I am _not_ advocating for yet another conversation about how this must be "fixed" so that points equals points equals balance.  I am advocating that everyone open their eyes and minds a bit and _stop trying to do that_, because not only is it not going to happen without regressing to two character abilities ("affect universe" and "resist universe"), but that every attempt to do so thus far has made things worse and more complicated.  However, repeated attempts to sway that opinion have left me feeling like the only athiest at the Vatican, so I don't do it as much as I used to.

 

The aside.... Well, aside, the entire goal I was pushing for with the defenses comparison was to make the two points that with the perfect defense offered by Desolid having been voluntarily surrendered, and that same defense having been the reason for the mandatory offensive upcharge, I saw absolutely no logical reason to make that to charge mandatory.

 

I admit that the point got muddied somewhere along the way (it really is difficult to just "glance back upstream" on the phone and find my way back all while holding a train of thought), I attempted to go into it a bit more here.  Again, sorry for any confusion.

 

 

23 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

  So if you’re giving away immunity for a limitation?

 

It's your turn, here.  I don't understand what you are asking.

 

 

23 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

 Fwiw, if Mudman is Desolid and can go through spaces and can’t hit someone else in the semi-liquid form and that’s because of the limitation, I have no problem with that.

 

I appreciate the example, but honestly (and it could be the lateness of the hour), but I am not getting it.

 

To clarify the question I _think_ is being asked inside the example, though:

 

His limitation is "doesn't actually desolidify" or, if it helps, "remains solid."  Accordingly, yes; he can still hit an opponent.  By the same token, he can also be hit by an opponent.   Seems reasonable, as he has given up the feature that might sensibly mandate the extreme upcharge in the name of "fair play."

 

23 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

 

@Doc Democracy, I think the reason why Desolid became fixed because before 4th, you may not know how much Desolid to buy.

 

I know this was for Doc; I hope you don't mind me tacking a swing at it, though:

 

To answer the unquoted question first (for logic reasons):  kind of.....

 

 You were buying a _ratio_ though:  the ability to move X inches through Y BODY in a Phase.  Thus, if you bought the ability to move 10" through 10" BODY in a Phase, you could move 20" through 5 BODY or 1" through 100 BODY.

 

Because it was a ratio, you were always _garaunteed_ to be able to move through any object _eventually_ (barring hardening, etc.). There was never really a worry about buying enough to make it through.  The only concern was life support (under most GMs I encountered, _especially_ after the drowning rules appeared in Coriolis Effect) and any senses to keep you from being surprised when you popped through (though, for whatever reason, very few people actually bought such senses unless they were in line with some other part of their character concept).

 

In practice, most people bought enough to duplicate their normal rate of movement through a pet target number for BODY (usually somewhere between 10 and 20 BODY) and many took a minor custom disadvantage that prevented them from exceeding the speed of their normal-preferred movement. 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Doc Democracy]

5 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

To answer the unquoted question first (for logic reasons):  kind of.  You were buying a _ratio_ though:  the ability to move X inches through Y BODY in a Phase.  Thus, if you bought the ability to move 10" through 10" BODY in a Phase, you could move 20" through 5 BODY or 1" through 100 BODY.

 

I had 100% forgotten this was how Desolid worked.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok @Duke Bushido, we’re on the same page. What I meant by for immunity for free was that there was a build that to represent true immunity, you buy Desolid to represent. The fact that you do not take damage, which happens with Desolid. You take a limitation of you cannot move through solid objects. I.e you still have to use a door you don’t just ooze under it. If you want to Affect the Real World, iow hit someone then you must buy Affects Real World. It’s quite expensive.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 9/11/2023 at 8:58 AM, Gauntlet said:

Of course, I hate that they took away Force Field as it makes their base value much higher, making it where you must have a much lower value of defense if you are using a multipower.

 

A lot of people really liked that 4e Hand Attack with a base value of 3 CP/1d6 so their 12d6 Blast could be in a Multipower with a +20d6 Hand Attack. If I am relying on that Multipower for attacks, I will have other defenses and a MP slot will be for turtling up.  Adding +20 PD and ED to a character whose defenses are on even the low end of campaign average seems pretty good to me - why does he need +30/+30?  I'd prefer +20/+20 at 0 END if I just recovered from KO with 3 STUN and 3 END!

[Christopher R Taylor]

I liked 4th edition HTA because it let me buy variable advantage on a pretty big HTA and get some amazing effects, kind of green lantern style power.  My punch is armor piercing this phase!  Now its autofire!  Now its explosion!

[Gauntlet]

40 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I liked 4th edition HTA because it let me buy variable advantage on a pretty big HTA and get some amazing effects, kind of green lantern style power.  My punch is armor piercing this phase!  Now its autofire!  Now its explosion!

 

Can't you still do that in both 5th and 6th edition? 

 

Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; +1) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Can't you still do that in both 5th and 6th edition? 

 

You can, but at 5 active points per d6, you are capped much lower in overall power.  At 3 points per d6 I could get a solid 8d6 base HTA with +½ variable advantage at roughly 60 active points, plus 1-2d6 from strength and just 6d6 now for the same active points.

[Ninja-Bear]

What puzzles me about the 3pt HA cost is that the simplest fix of people abusing it is for the GM to not allow it. Just because you can buy +20 HA doesn’t mean you should. Also I blame players who knowingly took advantage of it. Now the end result is a Lower with a mandatory limitation (which if I recall did cause some ruffled feathers because Hero doesn’t mandate anything. Right? Am I right about that? Could be wrong).  So how much longer did the rules get added do to this?

[Opal]

I'm not sure I really followed that, Duke, Im pretty sure i agree with a lot, but the "immune to (almost) all attacks is 20 points" bit doesn't work for me, since it comes with "can't make any attacks (at all)." 

 

With a campaign or practical limit on how big your attacks can be, a +2 advantage means you can pay for a campaign/point-total-appropriate attack, for the privelege of being unable to make any *effective* attack, instead.

 

And, like, Desolid w/Affects Solid World +2 on your attacks seems like a loosing proposition compared to regular defenses and Affects Desolid +1/2 :shrug:

 

The point of the +2 seems to be avoiding saying "no, you can't" (which is what the game did for a long time) and instead say, "okfine, you can, but you suck so hard at it there's no point" (npi)

 

 

In essence, old Desolid (pre-attacks-affect-solid), was a sorta time out from combat button. So were (and are now) a few other things, I guess.

 

I suppose it's one little weird combo of move through solid barriers, be (almost) un-attackable, and can't attack, because two of those things don't work so well separately. 

 

(Move through solid barriers is otherwise similar to Tunneling.)

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Opal

[Hugh Neilson]

On 9/15/2023 at 6:28 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

What puzzles me about the 3pt HA cost is that the simplest fix of people abusing it is for the GM to not allow it. Just because you can buy +20 HA doesn’t mean you should. Also I blame players who knowingly took advantage of it. Now the end result is a Lower with a mandatory limitation (which if I recall did cause some ruffled feathers because Hero doesn’t mandate anything. Right? Am I right about that? Could be wrong).  So how much longer did the rules get added do to this?

 

That's fine for experienced Hero Gamers.  Is it obvious to a new player or GM that this one 60 point attack power is massively unbalanced?

[Ninja-Bear]

9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

That's fine for experienced Hero Gamers.  Is it obvious to a new player or GM that this one 60 point attack power is massively unbalanced?

True, but then how many times have we built something and figured out that it was massively unbalanced? 

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

True, but then how many times have we built something and figured out that it was massively unbalanced? 

 

What's acceptable from players is not excusable from the authors of the ruleset. 

[Duke Bushido]

I have to agree with Ninja-Bear:  inexperience doesn't make the difference we like to pretend it does.  At one point, we were all inexperienced, and the worst thinf that happened was that we gained some really funny stories; we figured out very quickly that allowing four range doubling, telescopic sight and a dozen skill levels wasn't quite as okay as we thought it would be, or that 6 ED wasnt the ideal defense against a 14DC attack, and looking back, it doesnt seem like it really took that long, either.  I think it was our third session when we started comparing average die rolls to defenses, etc, and this was 1e-- when there werent _any_ real guidelines to go by.  Peoplw can be inexperienced at anything, but they arent stupid, either.

 

Don't get me wrong:  I think guidelines are a good thing as a jump-start, but even then, you are likely still going to have to tweak them to get precisely what you want, so you are kind of in the same starting place anyway.

 

 

[Gauntlet]

20 hours ago, Opal said:

I'm not sure I really followed that, Duke, Im pretty sure i agree with a lot, but the "immune to (almost) all attacks is 20 points" bit doesn't work for me, since it comes with "can't make any attacks (at all)." 

 

With a campaign or practical limit on how big your attacks can be, a +2 advantage means you can pay for a campaign/point-total-appropriate attack, for the privelege of being unable to make any *effective* attack, instead.

 

And, like, Desolid w/Affects Solid World +2 on your attacks seems like a loosing proposition compared to regular defenses and Affects Desolid +1/2 :shrug:

 

The point of the +2 seems to be avoiding saying "no, you can't" (which is what the game did for a long time) and instead say, "okfine, you can, but you suck so hard at it there's no point" (npi)

 

 

In essence, old Desolid (pre-attacks-affect-solid), was a sorta time out from combat button. So were (and are now) a few other things, I guess.

 

I suppose it's one little weird combo of move through solid barriers, be (almost) un-attackable, and can't attack, because two of those things don't work so well separately. 

 

(Move through solid barriers is otherwise similar to Tunneling.)

 

 

I rather agree with you concerning Desolification. I many times will not allow affects desolid as desolification already always has a way you can affect it. Why would someone have an attack that can effect both someone who is on the etherial plane or someone who is turned to fog.

[Ninja-Bear]

I mean the 4th Ed rule book could’ve had a simple suggestion with HA saying something that although the cost is 3 pts, it should be treated as a 5 pt ACT point power for the consideration of Game Balance.