Power Bar Powers in Champions

[Sketchpad]

Howdy Herodom! I was looking at making some of the Overwatch characters for Champions, and had a bit of a hang up on their "Power Bar" powers. For those that don't play, these are powers that take time to charge based on your attacks and survival. How would someone build this? Would it be a Trigger? Or is there something else that represents this better?

[Tom Cowan]

Could be an END Pool, or END Pools with the powers powered from the pool.  Maybe with limits on the REC for the pool.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Endurance Reserve or charges is the first thing that springs to mind.  END Reserve that only recovers when you carry out some act, for example, or maybe a heal to the END reserve that is triggered by an action.

[IndianaJoe3]

Hero System Martial Arts has some examples.

[Sketchpad]

It doesn't really seem to be an END issue. It's more of an access limit. The character can't access their "breaker" ability until their meter is filled. So, as an example:

Template is attacking Archetype in a one-on-one battle. They use a power gauntlet that gives them Power Blast (Blast), Power Punch (HA), and Power Heal (Heal). They also have a "Breaker" ability called "Template Tussle" which is an 12m AOE Blast that's selective. But they only have access to it after they've attacked so many times (as its meter fills). 

 

How would I build something like that? I looked through HSMA and couldn't find anything. EDIT: I did look at Sequence Attacks, and it's close, but not quite the same. This is just something that powers up over time until the character has access to it. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Sketchpad

[Ockham's Spoon]

There are a few ways you could do this, the problem is giving it a video game feel without making it a pain to track.  The simplest thing would be a custom limitation like "Power can only be used after X successful hits".  That might match what is in the video game, but now you have to track how many successful hits the character has achieved.  Also, the value of the limitation would change if the character decided to buy more levels or higher OCV so they could hit more often.  Video game powers don't always translate well into RPGs for that reason, because you don't have the computer doing the math for you.

 

If I were to build this, I think I would have the character take an END Reserve, with zero REC, and the limitation "END drops to zero if not used within 5 minutes of END Reserve charging" to make sure the Reserves always starts combat empty.  Then buy them an Aid to END, which goes into the END Reserve, and triggers every time they score a hit.  Once they have enough END in the Reserve, they can power their Ultimate Attack, but then they will have to build it back up before they can use it again.

 

 

[Sketchpad]

4 minutes ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

There are a few ways you could do this, the problem is giving it a video game feel without making it a pain to track.  The simplest thing would be a custom limitation like "Power can only be used after X successful hits".  That might match what is in the video game, but now you have to track how many successful hits the character has achieved.  Also, the value of the limitation would change if the character decided to buy more levels or higher OCV so they could hit more often.  Video game powers don't always translate well into RPGs for that reason, because you don't have the computer doing the math for you.

 

If I were to build this, I think I would have the character take an END Reserve, with zero REC, and the limitation "END drops to zero if not used within 5 minutes of END Reserve charging" to make sure the Reserves always starts combat empty.  Then buy them an Aid to END, which goes into the END Reserve, and triggers every time they score a hit.  Once they have enough END in the Reserve, they can power their Ultimate Attack, but then they will have to build it back up before they can use it again.

 

See, that's why I was thinking Trigger (6E1 p. 349). It states:
 

Quote

This Advantage allows a character to set up a power that activates when a defined circumstance occurs. Some examples of Triggers include a button the character must press, a radio control device, an activation word or incantation, the passage of a particular amount of time, applying sufficient pressure, a reflex action, or reaching a certain altitude.

 

So making the Trigger "Activates after X Phases" or "Activates after 100 points of damage rolled" might work in that case, yes?

So with the END Reserve, it would be specific to that one power?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Yes, that is how you would use the Trigger.

 

The END Reserve would be for just the Ultimate Power,  at least as I understand it.  If the character had more than one power that functioned like this, they might share an END Reserve or they might have independent ones.

[Doc Democracy]

My problem with using Trigger or END Reserve for this is that you are actually paying points to limit the use of the power.

 

Trigger might be acceptable if it provided an additional attack that turn, a significant advantage in any combat, and if I was using the END reserve to track the bureaucracy, I would not be charging points for it.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

My problem with using Trigger or END Reserve for this is that you are actually paying points to limit the use of the power.

 

Trigger might be acceptable if it provided an additional attack that turn, a significant advantage in any combat, and if I was using the END reserve to track the bureaucracy, I would not be charging points for it.

 

Doc

 

END reserve started out as a limitation - 8x Reserve was a -0 limitation like 16 charges.  It became a Power in 4e.

 

When we're discussing, say, a 100 AP power with an END reserve, typically I see value - making that 0 END would cost another 50, which would buy a sizable END reserve.

 

Here, we're using it as a limiting factor. One use END reserve will only cost 5, but it needs some way to recover. It starts at zero, but that limitation on 5 points won't be worth a lot. We need a Heal that has low re-use time Triggered by whatever the Trigger is.  1d6 Heal would restore 1d6 END, so it has to go off 6 times to fill the bar. We have to override the rules to make its re-use more frequent than per turn, and it needs an auto-resetting trigger. Now, if we also slap on a limitation that the power costs normal END plus battery END, there's a savings, but it still seems like average usage 1/turn or less is more limiting than those points will suggest.

 

One option is a custom limitation.  Another might be a Dependence - that can be used to set conditions on powers, but this is only one power, so I don't like a Complication rather than a Limitation.

 

What about 1 Recoverable charge?  Normally, that would be a -1 1/4 limitation (two levels down the chart), and the charge would be recovered after combat.  This could recover during combat, but would not be usable until the character meets its recovery condition during the combat. That sounds like a reasonable trade-off, or at least a reasonable starting point for a limitation on the power. 

 

[Doc Democracy]

Yeah, you are right. My response is edition based.  I am also agreed that using a complication is a bad precedent to set.

 

The recoverable charge does indeed sound like a good option.

[Sketchpad]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

One option is a custom limitation.  Another might be a Dependence - that can be used to set conditions on powers, but this is only one power, so I don't like a Complication rather than a Limitation.

 

What about 1 Recoverable charge?  Normally, that would be a -1 1/4 limitation (two levels down the chart), and the charge would be recovered after combat.  This could recover during combat, but would not be usable until the character meets its recovery condition during the combat. That sounds like a reasonable trade-off, or at least a reasonable starting point for a limitation on the power. 

 

I considered Recoverable Charge as well. But with it having potential to pop up more than once in combat, would it truly be a single charge then? Time plays a big part in the build. 

 

Quote

From Overwatch Wiki:

 Ultimate charge is measured in points. Heroes start each round with no ultimate charge, and passively start gaining 5 ultimate charge points per second once the doors open. Additionally, charge can be gained through combat, with the amount of points gained equal to the amount of damage dealt to enemy heroes or healing dealt to yourself and your allied heroes. Heroes stop gaining charge when they reach their ultimate cost, meaning that it is not possible to "bank" ultimate charge towards the next ultimate when their ultimate is available.

 

Would it be feasible to have a Recoverable Charge that powers up after every 12 Phase?

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Sketchpad said:

Would it be feasible to have a Recoverable Charge that powers up after every 12 Phase?

 

That sounded like Extra time for me, but for attacks that means you activate it and it takes a full turn to be ready to throw.  Problem is that it forbids you using other attacks in the meantime.

 

I was sure I saw a limitation that meant you could only use it after a certain period had lapsed since its last use, thought it was called cooldown or something.  It is like phasers that overheat and need to cool down before firing again. Could not see it in main rulebook or in Star Hero.

[Sketchpad]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

That sounded like Extra time for me, but for attacks that means you activate it and it takes a full turn to be ready to throw.  Problem is that it forbids you using other attacks in the meantime.

 

I was sure I saw a limitation that meant you could only use it after a certain period had lapsed since its last use, thought it was called cooldown or something.  It is like phasers that overheat and need to cool down before firing again. Could not see it in main rulebook or in Star Hero.

 

How would that forbid other attacks if they're not built with the same limits?

[dougmacd]

14 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

My problem with using Trigger or END Reserve for this is that you are actually paying points to limit the use of the power.

 

Agreed. Is there a reason you don't simply use a limited power?

• +4d6 Blast, Only usable after 12 segments of combat (-1)
• 4d6 RKA, No Range, AoE: Explosion, Personal Immunity, 1 Charge, Only usable at half health (-1½)

Just set the limitation values to something reasonable for the character/campaign. (I.e., dependent on character SPD, average number of rounds of combat, etc.)

 

Or buy the powers normally and limit them with a Physical Complication:

• Power X deals four dice less damage the first 12 segments of combat (Infrequent, Barely impairing)
• Can't use power Y if health is over 50% (Very frequent, Slightly impairing)

Again, set values appropriately. This makes things a little harder to track -- it won't be obvious one can't use the full power unless you look at the whole sheet.

 

 

Doug

Keep the criteria simple. Tracking phases or hits is easy; tracking points of damage or END spent is fiddly.

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Sketchpad said:

 

How would that forbid other attacks if they're not built with the same limits?

Just in the rules (6th edition), if your attack has extra time it means, if you use another attack, the attack with extra time goes back to the start, and you need to wait the whole period of time again.

 

6E1 Page 374, "Attacks are an exception: if a character takes this Limitation for a power that requires an Attack Roll, he cannot make another attack until the power’s been used".

There is the usual, you can get special GM permission to ignore this.

[Sketchpad]

39 minutes ago, dougmacd said:

Agreed. Is there a reason you don't simply use a limited power?

• +4d6 Blast, Only usable after 12 segments of combat (-1)
• 4d6 RKA, No Range, AoE: Explosion, Personal Immunity, 1 Charge, Only usable at half health (-1½)

Just set the limitation values to something reasonable for the character/campaign. (I.e., dependent on character SPD, average number of rounds of combat, etc.)

 

Or buy the powers normally and limit them with a Physical Complication:

• Power X deals four dice less damage the first 12 segments of combat (Infrequent, Barely impairing)
• Can't use power Y if health is over 50% (Very frequent, Slightly impairing)

Again, set values appropriately. This makes things a little harder to track -- it won't be obvious one can't use the full power unless you look at the whole sheet.

 

 

Doug

Keep the criteria simple. Tracking phases or hits is easy; tracking points of damage or END spent is fiddly.

 

Hmm... that is an interesting idea as well. I would imagine it would be more of a limit on power over a Complication though, but I do see your point there. I agree that tracking Phases is probably the easiest, which is why I was thinking ever 12 phase. 

 

6 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Just in the rules (6th edition), if your attack has extra time it means, if you use another attack, the attack with extra time goes back to the start, and you need to wait the whole period of time again.

 

6E1 Page 374, "Attacks are an exception: if a character takes this Limitation for a power that requires an Attack Roll, he cannot make another attack until the power’s been used".

There is the usual, you can get special GM permission to ignore this.

 

Not sure why that didn't click for me. Thanks for the refresher, Doc. 

[Doc Democracy]

9 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

Hmm... that is an interesting idea as well. I would imagine it would be more of a limit on power over a Complication though, but I do see your point there. I agree that tracking Phases is probably the easiest, which is why I was thinking ever 12 phase. 

 

It is why I am a fan of one recoverable charge for this.  It might end up purely as a 1/4 or 0 limitation as it recovers every post segment 12.  So you get 0 END for free but can only use it once a turn.  As GM I think I might be leaning heavily towards the +0 limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

19 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

I considered Recoverable Charge as well. But with it having potential to pop up more than once in combat, would it truly be a single charge then? Time plays a big part in the build. 

 

 

Would it be feasible to have a Recoverable Charge that powers up after every 12 Phase?

 

I used Recoverable Charge more to establish some baseline for what "only usable after Condition X" might be worth as a limitation.  While a charge recoverable every turn means it could be used multiple times in the same combat (which the RAW notes as a standard the GM can waive), a single recoverable charge could also be used as early as the first phase of combat.  Assuming a pure "power bar rises over time" model, the combat has to go on for two turns for the character to get two uses (that is, power up twice).

 

I think Recoverable Charges remains a reasonable model to base the limitation on.  If you expect the average combat to run for about 5 turns, then 4 recoverable charges (which would be -1/2 IIRC) would allow use of the power after each of 4 PS 12 recoveries in a 5-turn combat. That's still more limited, since it can't be used in the first turn, much less four times in rapid succession at the start of combat. 

 

Doc, I am sure I recall a "cooldown" in the past as well, but I can't remember where.

[Sketchpad]

On 9/18/2023 at 2:17 PM, Doc Democracy said:

I was sure I saw a limitation that meant you could only use it after a certain period had lapsed since its last use, thought it was called cooldown or something.  It is like phasers that overheat and need to cool down before firing again. Could not see it in main rulebook or in Star Hero.

 

8 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Doc, I am sure I recall a "cooldown" in the past as well, but I can't remember where.

 

I found a few topics on Cooldowns. Would these be what you were thinking about?
 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

This sounds similar to a sequence attack from page 253 of HSMA.  

 

The way I would do it would be to simply use a conditional limitation on the attack that it requires multiple successive hits.  I think a -1/4 for each successful hit would be about right.  So, buy the attack with whatever advantages and limitations are appropriate and add an additional -1/4 limitation for each required attack.  This assumes that a missed roll ruins the attempt.  If that is not the case, then increase the number of attacks required.  I would probably use a -1/4 limitation for each 2 required hits., -1/4 for 2 hits, -1/2 for 4 hits and so on.