Changing VPP and Using Power in One Go

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Possible.  How about alternate language...NND doesn't become a -1/2 any more, it's a -0.  No one would take NND vs. Power Def, when it's the same cost as the AVAD vs. Power Def, but that's actually just as well.  Hasn't been brought up, but...if you're pretty sure your target doesn't have, say, Mental Def, then it's probably worth a try to nail him with an NND vs Mental Def...because that's only +1/2.  It's an extra 2 dice for a 12 DC attack...and if it does work, the target is MUCH more likely to be stunned, even with a higher CON.  8 dice averages 28, and how often do people buy that high without figured stats in the picture?  Even if they're not stunned, wow, getting 28 STUN through in a single attack is a LOT.

 

So, who do you know that has a 40- or better skill roll?

 

Generally?  it's a good example of everything I hate about trying to do fantasy in Hero.  

 

This was a spell I had for a rather powerful Lich. And with his magic roll and overall skill levels and skill levels with INT Based Skills, he had a 13- to successfully make the roll. Now this was not something that even a 450 point fantasy hero characters had. The spell is dangerous, but as it absolutely has to kill you to do any damage it usually was not so dangerous at the beginning of the combat when characters have not taken any BODY damage (unless you are the type of character who bought down your body). But as things start to move forward and people take BODY damage, it gets nastier.

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Possible.  How about alternate language...NND doesn't become a -1/2 any more, it's a -0.  No one would take NND vs. Power Def, when it's the same cost as the AVAD vs. Power Def, but that's actually just as well.  Hasn't been brought up, but...if you're pretty sure your target doesn't have, say, Mental Def, then it's probably worth a try to nail him with an NND vs Mental Def...because that's only +1/2.  It's an extra 2 dice for a 12 DC attack...and if it does work, the target is MUCH more likely to be stunned, even with a higher CON.  8 dice averages 28, and how often do people buy that high without figured stats in the picture?  Even if they're not stunned, wow, getting 28 STUN through in a single attack is a LOT.

 

The issue is exactly as you say - an attack that is blocked entirely by any defense is less advantageous than one reduced by that defense.  How much less so is open to debate.  20 defense is pretty secure that 4d6 won't do any damage anyway.

 

This doesn't fix the ability to switch the NND to "LS - High Heat" or "LS - Need not Breathe".

 

The versatility of the VPP greatly facilitates targeting any opponent's weaknesses.  That needs to be a consideration in how they are managed, or even whether they are allowed, in-game.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Grailknight]

15 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Problem with that is what if the special effect is magic, or cosmic energy, or nanite technology. With those, and many others, they may have a variety of sub special effects. Such as for magic, perhaps an aging spell (defense LS Longevity), or Body Heat spell (defense LS Heat), or a magical dart spell (defense, force field or force wall), or a death spell (defense is Power Defense). All of these have the same special effect, magic, but all have a different NND Defense.

 

No, if your SFX when you design the VPP is magic or cosmic energy or nanite technology then that's what it is. It may look like something else but that's purely cosmetic. If you want to be able to change your SFX buy the Cosmic Advantage on your VPP or buy Variable SFX on individual powers.

 

The ability to alter SFX varies from niche to instant win. It's a powerful ability and shouldn't be given for free with VPP's.

[Gauntlet]

22 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

No, if your SFX when you design the VPP is magic or cosmic energy or nanite technology then that's what it is. It may look like something else but that's purely cosmetic. If you want to be able to change your SFX buy the Cosmic Advantage on your VPP or buy Variable SFX on individual powers.

 

The ability to alter SFX varies from niche to instant win. It's a powerful ability and shouldn't be given for free with VPP's.

 

But still, if it is magic, then yes it is always magic. But that doesn't mean that the Magic Fireball doesn't burn you, or the magic Spear spell doesn't put a hole in you. They are two different sub special effects but both are of the Special Effect of Magic. So, if you have that Magic Heat Ray that causes you damage if you do not have Immunity to Heat you can also have that Magic Dart that causes you damage if you do not have a Force Field. Both are AVADs with different defenses but both can be in the same Magic VPP. The change for VPP is based on the Advantage, not the special effect. Just like Armor Piercing reduced the target's defenses based on the Advantage, not the attacks special effect.

 

Per page 411 of Hero System 6th Edition Volume 1 the Cosmic Advantage is the combination of "+1 Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero-Phase Action" and "+1 No Skill Roll Required". This has nothing to do with the special effect of the power. So technically, if I have a VPP that does not have the +2 Cosmic Advantage I can still have multiple AVADs that have different defenses.

 

The question is "How do you keep this from being abused".

[Grailknight]

7 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

But still, if it is magic, then yes it is always magic. But that doesn't mean that the Magic Fireball doesn't burn you, or the magic Spear spell doesn't put a hole in you. They are two different sub special effects but both are of the Special Effect of Magic. So, if you have that Magic Heat Ray that causes you damage if you do not have Immunity to Heat you can also have that Magic Dart that causes you damage if you do not have a Force Field. Both are AVADs with different defenses but both can be in the same Magic VPP. The change for VPP is based on the Advantage, not the special effect. Just like Armor Piercing reduced the target's defenses based on the Advantage, not the attacks special effect.

 

Per page 411 of Hero System 6th Edition Volume 1 the Cosmic Advantage is the combination of "+1 Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero-Phase Action" and "+1 No Skill Roll Required". This has nothing to do with the special effect of the power. So technically, if I have a VPP that does not have the +2 Cosmic Advantage I can still have multiple AVADs that have different defenses.

 

The question is "How do you keep this from being abused".

 

It's only abusive if you allow that Magic Fire to trigger Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities to fire. If it only affects magic limitations, then there's no issue. The hardest and most important thing for a GM is to learn when to say "NO" in a consistent and fair manner. Reward creativity but not gamesmanship. By the way, 6th does say that any character should have no more than one type of AVLD, but the writer then proceeds to violate that repeatedly in the villain books.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Grailknight

[Gauntlet]

33 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

It's only abusive if you allow that Magic Fire to trigger Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities to fire. If it only affects magic limitations, then there's no issue. The hardest and most important thing for a GM is to learn when to say "NO" in a consistent and fair manner. Reward creativity but not gamesmanship. By the way, 6th does say that any character should have no more than one type of AVLD, but the writer then proceeds to violate that repeatedly in the villain books.

 

So it is looking like you are saying "Don't allow AVLDs in VPP". 

 

I am just checking to see if I understand you. But if you are saying that it is something that I might even be able to agree.

[unclevlad]

Just now, Grailknight said:

 

It's only abusive if you allow that Magic Fire to trigger Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities to fire. If it only affects magic limitations, then there's no issue. The hardest and most important thing for a GM is to learn when to say "NO" in a consistent and fair manner. Reward creativity but not gamesmanship.

 

RAW never states I have to limit the SFX.  In fact, it says the opposite, with the example for Slightly Limited class of powers..."Only Magic."  If I take that limitation, then it has to be translated into game mechanics.  Can't trigger any vulnerabilities based on SFX, other than magic?  That might be a plausible condition.

 

But I don't have to take any limited powers.  And if I don't, there's no limit to what I can do with it.  I'll also note:  I can define my VPP as biomancy...the manipulation of the body.  That gives me any Life Support-based NND I want.  Targeting things this way just doesn't work.

 

Quote

[...] establishes a pool of Character Points that he can use to create any power, or any power within a defined group of powers (typically, a set of powers limited to a specific special effect).

 

Limiting the range of powers is an option.  Limiting the available SFX is an option.  That's the entire point of the Limited Powers VPP limitation group.  The skill roll/time have nothing to do with that.

 

I think the problem is more in the language of NNDs, and the fact that the rules largely allow you to make up the defense as you go along.  Clearly, in a VPP where powers are made up on the fly, this is a real issue.  Rather than try to compel VPPs broadly so they can't happen......how about simply agreeing, player and GM, on a narrow set of exotic defenses the character 'knows' how to target with his powers...even when the power pool itself has no Limited Powers aspect?  Because this isn't strictly a VPP problem.  I could build an attacks-only multipower with, say, 10 slots.  5 of those could be NNDs, if I wanted to.  What would be stopping that?  In fact, I could do this:

 

Multipower, 30-point reserve, all slots Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; +2) (90 Active Points)

3f)  Blast 6d6 (vs. ED) (30 Active Points)

3f)  RKA 2d6

3f)  Flight, 24m, Position Shift

 

That allows AVAD vs. Mental, Power, and the common Flash defenses, and all NNDs.  It's not *as* good as the VPP, but it has all the issues we're talking about here.  For the RKA...how about quadruple armor piercing, or double armor piercing, no range mods?  Uber-sniper.  On the movement power, I can apply, say, 0 END and No Gravity Penalty for combat...and Megascale for non-combat.  I don't get to fly and blast at the same time, sure...but I can address that outside the MP.   

 

Rather than try to say "your VPP has to have SFX that can't change" or somesuch...that's a broad change.  Saying No is important...but keep it narrower, to the cases where there are problems.  Those problems can likely be created in more than one way.

[Grailknight]

5 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

So it is looking like you are saying "Don't allow AVLDs in VPP". 

 

I am just checking to see if I understand you. But if you are saying that it is something that I might even be able to agree.

 

I'm just saying that you should give your VPP a SFX and then make all powers therein conform to that SFX.  I tend to be a restrictive GM because I've seen what happens in HERO with a group of players that were all engineers and programmers. How you want to do AVAD's is on you.

[Hugh Neilson]

I would also start with the basic rule that, if you can do it, the bad guys can do it with similar frequency. Are you OK with the typical villain team having one or two members who can reliably hit every PC with NNDs?

[Christopher R Taylor]

The problem with NND type attacks in a power pool is that it effectively negates the required defenses. You can have an attack that requires hardened power defense to protect against... and if they have that well now it requires non-hardened power defense.  Yes, you pay for the privilege but it kind of breaks some advantages by making them evade their weaknesses. 

 

Its easy to deal with limitations, most conditional limitations just don't apply with power pools because they don't limit the character; you can just build around whatever the limitation is.  For example, your force field that only works when its cold outside, but you only use it with the power pool when its cold outside.  Now that limitation just isn't a limit at all since you can build the power you want by the situation.

 

Perhaps some advantages should have a surcharge when in a power framework?

Edited October 7, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I would also start with the basic rule that, if you can do it, the bad guys can do it with similar frequency. Are you OK with the typical villain team having one or two members who can reliably hit every PC with NNDs?

 

I definitely do think that is a good idea but you still have to be careful. GMs make several characters and usually do not have the time to concentrate on doing so, while players are making usually only one character, meaning that can really focus on it.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The problem with NND type attacks in a power pool is that it effectively negates the required defenses. You can have an attack that requires hardened power defense to protect against... and if they have that well now it requires non-hardened power defense.  Yes, you pay for the privilege but it kind of breaks some advantages by making them evade their weaknesses. 

 

 

Who's to say they have only hardened Power Def?  Why not some of both?  It's not either/or.

 

That said, your example still has merit...that, more broadly, RAW allows to fish around until you find a hole.  

 

Plus:  there's the root point, explicitly stated, that "The GM must approve all chosen NND defenses, and should not allow inappropriate defenses."  6E1 326.  We can take the example a step further:  resistant, hardened Power Def.  I'm not sure I'd allow that as the only form of NND...much less in a VPP.  A guideline seems like, if it feels even rarer than the book's Rare defense examples (which include Resistant Power Def), then don't allow it.  But, that's probably only reasonable for fixed, lone NNDs...not NNDs in a VPP.  Note, tho:  I'd argue there's some defenses I'd almost NEVER expect to see, like Flash Def:  Touch.  

 

Also note that, to a degree, this applies to AVADs.  You've got 4 separate Uncommon defenses to explore. 

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Perhaps some advantages should have a surcharge when in a power framework?

 

Believe that's been mentioned, but not heavily examined.  Hugh mentioned calling NNDs "extremely rare"...I noted that perhaps in a VPP with the binary yes/no defense, NND is +0 instead of -1/2.  They both leave NNDs vs. e.g. Heat or Cold at +1 1/2.  It'd mean your 12 DC blast can only be 4 1/2 dice.  This will do 19 STUN, therefore stunning an opponent with an 18 CON, only about 1 time in 4.  If it's +1, then it's a 6d attack, and 21's the average...so stunning an opponent with a 20 CON.  Plus, it'd probably take at least 1 additional strike to reach knockout.

 

A more complete approach would be to say that all the defense categories move down a notch...so from normal to resistant only is +1, normal to Power/Mental/common Flash is +1 1/2, and all the rest start at +2.  Note that I probably wouldn't apply the converse, shifting from a rarer, exotic defense to a more common one.  (Not even sure how often that one's used.)

 

The system logic would be much like the rationale behind the special rules for Autofire, for Reduced END and for special-defense attacks.  

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The system logic would be much like the rationale behind the special rules for Autofire, for Reduced END and for special-defense attacks.  

 

Yeah that was how I was thinking it through; you can do it but because its hyper effective there's a... tax.

[Doc Democracy]

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I would also start with the basic rule that, if you can do it, the bad guys can do it with similar frequency. Are you OK with the typical villain team having one or two members who can reliably hit every PC with NNDs?

 

Something my group always has in their minds.  When we were teenagers and they wanted poison on all their weapons all the time.  I said that if that was good, then all their opponents would do so.

 

If they didn't, only the most evil ones would and they could assume that anyone who did was an enemy.

 

That truce has lasted almost four decades.

[Cloppy Clip]

I think the game runs much more smoothly in general when players build characters with an eye toward what the world looks like. If the rules say it's perfectly find to use your Megascaled mental powers to mind control the universe while never leaving your house that's one thing, but are we playing in a game where mentalists regularly do so? If people are mature enough to admit that no, and it sounds like a bit of a silly game, then we can move on while keeping the stop sign options like Megascale open for when a character concept does justify them.

[unclevlad]

I prefer having structure, and with it, accountability.  My favorite setup is Drew Hayes' Super Powereds.  

--virtually all characters are mutants;  there are isolated gadgeteers, but that's it.  No radioactive spider bites or weird mystical artifacts.

--supers went public relatively late...after WW II.  They may have existed before, but that's when they came out as people with extraordinary abilities

--there is no vigilantism.  If you're a super and want to fight other supers while acting in a public safety capacity, you must be licensed...and that's made difficult.

--if you mess up too much or too often...you can lose that license;  if it's wanton or reckless, you can be arrested. 

--if you engage in super-powered combat, outside of self-defense or proper defense of another, you have committed a serious crime.

 

In general, powers have a theme...density control, energy absorption/re-release, advanced mind (usually TK and telepathy together).  There'll be variations, there can be secondary aspects;  in some cases, the power characterization can be really broad...but that's very rare.  What you don't get is a teleporter with laser eye blasts.  MOST of the time, the power scale is high-ish but still fairly reasonable;  the points to implement tend to run high, because the defenses for Heroes are generally much better.  Bad guys DO try to kill...and Heroes are expected to try NOT to kill, unless the threat is severe enough to warrant it.  And, as noted, there is oversight with the authority to strip the license to act...and they do so at times.

 

The setup also largely eliminates most limitations, altho OIAID is fairly common.  Not many foci other than armor and sometimes real weapons.  If there's an incredibly massive power that has a whole bunch of limitations?  It's on a major villain and it's a plot device, most of the time.  

[Gauntlet]

One thing I have done in my FH campaigns when allowing VPPs is to state that they have to already know the spell and have it prewritten up. Any time they find another spell or take the time to create one (which they need the Inventor skill for spells) they can add it to that list of spells they have available. It does speed things up as they are not recreating spells each time they use one.

[Chris Goodwin]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:25 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

@Chris Goodwin Sorry I'm a little slow on the uptake here. What would Delayed Effect do differently to Trigger in this specific case? (It doesn't help that I can struggle to tell them apart at the best of times)

 

It looks like I completely failed to answer this; my apologies!

 

The main differences are intent and implied special effects.  Delayed Effect was intended to replicate a Vancian, early edition D&D style magic system with prepared spells.  You would prepare the spell and then release it at will later.  Trigger was intended more to replicate things like land mines, or other weapons or items that you might place somewhere, with a strong implication that it would be Triggered by someone else, and affect the target where they Triggered it.  You need to set up a condition that sets off the Triggered power, which you define at the time you build the power unless you pay extra. 

 

The mechanical differences are:

• A Delayed Effect power can't be Drained or Dispelled, while a Triggered power can. 
• A Delayed Effect power is always activated by the character while a Triggered power is activated by an external condition (even if the Triggered power is activated at the character's location).  Further, a Triggered power can't rely on any senses for activation that the character doesn't possess, though they can buy Enhanced Senses that are Limited to only activate a Triggered power.
• A Delayed Effect power requires the GM to determine how many total "slots" a character can prepare, while Trigger doesn't (though the GM can set limits in the latter case).

The differences are pretty subtle, and took me a while to figure out myself.