Should FH Characters Pay for Equipment.

[Duke Bushido]

So what the heck does Mercedes Lackey (or whatever it is) write?  Or that abominible Dead and [insert something here] series my wife's best friend is so enamoured with?  (Okay, fine; I do not object if you dump that into a new genre of "near porn" and keep on rocking).  Oe Harry Turtledove's amazing 'Case of the Toxic Spell Dump'?

 

Those were unpleasantly Fantasy to me (except for Spell Dump.  That was _awesome_. 

 

 

[Rich McGee]

5 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

So what the heck does Mercedes Lackey (or whatever it is) write? 

The Valdemar stuff is vanilla fantasy from what little I've read of it.  She also does quite a bit of what's currently called "urban fantasy" (modern-ish day world with fantasy elements shoehorned in - the Harry Dresden series is a good example) because publishers and bookstores like subgenres.

 

10 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Or that abominible Dead and [insert something here] series my wife's best friend is so enamoured with?  (Okay, fine; I do not object if you dump that into a new genre of "near porn" and keep on rocking).

Assuming you mean Charlene Harris' apparently unending Sookie Stackhouse novels, that's usually considered supernatural romance, another subgenre.  I forced my way through one of them and (whether I want them or not) keep getting regular reports on the rest as a friend of mine reads them.  They're actually rather light on awkwardly (ahem) inserted porn by the standards of the subgenre, with many books only having a single really smutty scene.  They sure do love to talk about clothing, though.  Solidly in the Not For Me category, but it wasn't meant to be.

 

15 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Oe Harry Turtledove's amazing 'Case of the Toxic Spell Dump'?

Probably considered urban fantasy as well.  That one always reminded me of Heinlein's Magic Inc. short story, at least in overall tone.   

[Gauntlet]

I am pretty sure the argument about if Champions is just variations on superheroes is kinda pointless. All heroes in movies, roleplaying games, or even computer games are Superheroes. The fact that they may not wear a cape or have lazers out of their eyes is irrelevant. For example, look at any of the Die Hard movies, in real life he would probably be at least hospitalized, or even dead, at the first encounter of the movie. Hell, Conan the Barbarian was even considered a superhero in Marvel.

[GDShore]

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22 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

All fantasy?  I disagree with that.

 

Sorry Chris, the only fantasy not underlayed by the peasant/serf is modern-urban fantasy or renaissance-Victorian. All of the early fantasy game were based in the history of the middle ages, D&D, EPT, C&S and FH. This is not a surprise, they were all familiar with this world (history class in school, except for C&S Bakus + Zimbalist were experts having met in university history class, in fact C&S is based on German middle ages). The problem with education in North America both sides of the border is that virtually nothing is taught in history class outside of Europe, as 75% plus of the population is of European lineage this should be expected. I knew Wilf and were friends for 50 years before he passed, was part of his test team for C&S,I exchanged letters (snail mail) with Aronson for twelve [I was complaining about Greyhawk} years, and was an early player of Chainmail the grandaddy of the RPG. So yes the early games were European middle ages, and peasant/serfs were its foundation. It is an unpleasant world  for 2/3 of the pyramid but we play in the top 1/3. We play from the upper (sometimes middle) middle class and the nobility, our characters have the time to study, to practice to become good at something other than tilling the soil. We live a good life as compared to that bottom 2/3's but all the tales of the hero's like Arthur and Robin Hood begin as begin as folk tales told in pubs and around fires By The Peasant. For Arthur as aspirational wanting to be him, for Robin also aspirational but for tweaking the noses of the nobility. 

[Chris Goodwin]

26 minutes ago, GDShore said:

Sorry Chris, the only fantasy not underlayed by the peasant/serf is modern-urban fantasy or renaissance-Victorian. All of the early fantasy game were based in the history of the middle ages, D&D, EPT, C&S and FH.

 

Given that we're playing a system where we can build anything... why do we have to slavishly ape the conventions of the stories Gygax et al loved?  Even by 1978 or so, when Appendix N was compiled, fantasy had gone in new directions, and in the almost 50 years since then it's gone in a lot more new directions. 

 

If you like that, play it.  More power to you, play what you enjoy.  As you note, there are a whole lot of games and settings that cater to that.  But there's a whole lot more to the fantasy genre than the authors whose heyday was the 1930's to the 1950's.  We don't need to lick the boots of D&D anymore.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Fafhrd and Gray Mouser as well as Elric, Nine Princes in Amber, and Conan all rejected the medieval serf-lord structure for their stories.  Lord of the Rings, Narnia, and other classic fantasy stories had no such culture.  I agree its very common and typical, but isn't the necessary benchplate.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Gauntlet]

One thing also to remember is that you are going to play games you have some understanding of, and that many times will depend on where you come from. I will bet that a gamer in India or China or Japan would have incredibly different world bases than someone in the United States or Europe. And there is nothing wrong with that. The whole point is to have fun using your imagination. But then again if you want to run something different than the norm in your area, then take some time to learn different cultures, history, and imaginative lore.

[Gauntlet]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Fafhrd and Gray Mouser as well as Elric, Nine Princes in Amber, and Conan all rejected the medieval serf-lord structure for their stories.  Lord of the Rings, Narnia, and other classic fantasy stories had no such culture.  I agree its very common and typical, but isn't the necessary benchplate.

 

Of course Elric was with the Lords of Choas, so not having a culture with lords and such may not be that strange.

[GDShore]

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4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

gamer in India or China or Japan would have incredibly different world bases than someone in the United States or Europe. And there is nothing wrong with that. The whole point is to have fun using your imagination.

 

Actually, the feudal society of the Orient is nastier than that of Europe. I am not suggesting that we play from there either.  However if your highest technology is the sail or the crossbow and your transportation system is based on muscle power whether that is your own two feet or your mounts four feet or dray animals to pull a wagon or canal boat then you will need a large underclass to produce, transport, process and sell food. If you do not use magic to improve or replace technology then you need to allow that underclass to allow an upper class the time to train or study. A large city of the middle ages Like London, Paris, Bonn or Rome had there service farms within 35 -- 40 km. road wise or 80 -- 100 km. up river of that city or finally an overseas transport sea train of Foodstuffs. Modern technology allows a much smaller underclass farmer class to support a much larger middle and upper class. Even so most feudal societies had a safety valve, if a serf could escape his location, make it to a free city and survive there for a year and a day their serf servitude is severed. 

But even in a modern technological world like ours there is a large underclass just ask the migrant worker who picks the large majority of our food crops. What I was trying to do in a hamfisted way was that magic if plentiful could reduce that underclass by a very large degree.

[LoneWolf]

In a fantasy setting where the powers that be routinely intervene in mortal affairs religions are likely to be very different than they are in the real world.  In the real world proving what a god wants or even if they exist is often difficult that does not need to be the case in a fantasy world.  If a good god grants healing powers to his clerics and tells them to go heal the sick, they are going to do it.  If the deity does not want his clerics charging the poor for healing them they will not charge people for it.  If they try doing so the deity is not going to grant them the power to heal.  

 

 

Trying to make a profit off of religion does not work when the deity in question comes down and tells his “followers” to stop doing that.  So, while historically religions may charge for services that may not be true in a fantasy world.   In some cases it may be, but that depends on the nature of the deity.   If a deity wants his followers to be charitable and help others they will. 

[Rich McGee]

When you have provable deities that hand out magic to their followers, the relationship is now inevitably going to be transactional rather than faith-based.  Their followers will do (or not do) things the god wants only in proportion to the benefits it offers (or punishments it withholds), and if the deal isn't satisfactory they'll find another god offering a more attractive deal.  Even if you've got some sort of divine serfdom system going where mortals are trapped by birth and can't easily change from one deity to another, they can still deny worship and refuse to obey if their god's demands are too exacting - which presumably weakens the deity and leaves them open to their rivals, who are certainly going to be interested in poaching followers in serf-worshipper situation.

 

Whole lot of problems waiting for deities who prove themselves.  Familiarity breeds contempt and exploitation, not blind faith.

 

The obscure Nexus: the Infinite City RPG had a good spin on this.  The game setting is a pandimensional metropolis where lots of deities try to operate, but the only ones that succeed understand how to bargain with worshippers and market themselves on a competitive market.  One of the most popular gods is Stleb, a cosmic horror/vampire worm thing that understands publicity and market trends well enough that it out-competes almost all the nicer gods by offering reliable healing, warding, and luck services - all for the low cost of what amounts to a harmless blood donation. It even splits the take with the Red Cross, who act as its collection and fulfillment agency in partnership with Stleb's priests.

[LoneWolf]

You are making some assumptions that may or may not be true.  First is the assumption there are multiple gods competing for worshipers.   While that is typically the case in many games that does not have to be the case.  The nice thing about Fantasy Hero is that the GM can create a setting exactly the way they want.  This includes how deities work. There also may be consequences for failing to worship a deity.  Maybe if you don’t have a deity your soul can be claimed by demons when you die.  

 

Even if the relationship is transactional the behavior that will be rewarded is the behavior the deity wants to encourage.   If the deity wants to encourage people to be charitable to the poor and take care of their others and grants powers to those that do so, it will mean more charity and caring for others.   If the cleric loses his powers when he charges someone for healing, he will not charge for healing.  The nature of the deity is more important than the nature of the follower.  

 

There is no reason you could not run a Fantasy Hero game with a monotheistic setting where there is only one God.  Fantasy Hero is actually the best game to do this in.   I am not saying this has to be done, but just that it can be done.   In such a setting the clerics of the world may be granted power and use it for the betterment of others without charging exorbitant prices. 

[GDShore]

I had forgotten about "gods". The local priest/priestess, monk/nun, or whatever they might be called who serve a god, and do the bidding thereof will do the healing for the tithe of worship. I had only considered magic and its practitioners. To live is to learn, thank you Lone Wolf. When you factor in the existence of active deities the circumstances  change dramatically. I had not, I had only considered the nature of man, not the possibility of something beyond the nature of man.