Killing Attacks - How Powerful?

[Guest TheAuthority]

I've made up the Hunted for one of the PC's in my campaign and gave them a melee killing attack and ranged killing attack. How powerful should they be if the rPD/rED for the PC's range from 6 (the Hunted character in question) to 15? I've statted out the KA's at 6d6+1 and 5d6 respectively. Too high? Too low?

[Redmenace]

Yeah. a bit high there. To figure it out from now on, assume an average roll of 3 for every d6 of killing attacks. That means the 6D6 will range on average 18-36 body, youre 6 defense PC will be toast unless they have great exotic defenses or the Hunted can't hit a stationary target.

[Ghost Archer]

Good grief. With a high end rPD/rED of 15, even 5d6 KA is going to be a serious threat. You might 'average' 17.5 BODY on 5d6, but you can get up to 30 and that would leave a mark. I'd drop your more powerful atttack down to 75 Active and maybe make your lower powered attack 60. It's nice to be able to take a target out in one shot, but it's not very heroic to die the first time you encounter your 'Hunted'. It's a whole lot more fun if the Hunter gets to play with his prey.

[Guest TheAuthority]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. I just wanted some clarification before proceeding. Thanks for the input.

[Supreme Serpent]

(Assuming Hunted's attacks are based off of sharp things, like knives/axes/etc)

 

May want to consider just making the attacks normal damage dice with AP to represent the "sharp" effect. Instead of 5d6 Killing, make it 10d6 AP. Depending on overall defenses, could still do body damage, but much less likely to immediately smear characters over the battlefield.

[Guest TheAuthority]

Originally posted by Supreme Serpent

(Assuming Hunted's attacks are based off of sharp things, like knives/axes/etc)

 

Hmmmm. That's exactly what they are actually...lemme think on it...

[lemming]

5d6 KA's are killer at that range of rdef. The variance is high enough that a 30 body hit wouldn't be as uncommon as you'd think.

[BNakagawa]

Depends on what you want them to do.

 

Do you want these hunteds to fight your pcs or kill them?

 

If the former, cut the dice about in half. If the latter, drop about a die.

[Guest TheAuthority]

I decided to halve the KA's, I didn't want the villain to be able to kill the Hunted outright, that's not fair. I also added two HA's, one with Armor Piercing and one without. Hopefully one of these damage options will put the PC's under the gun.

[Blue]

I'm glad you're bringing it down a few notches.

 

A few times in the past I've played with people who came straight over from other systems. I'm not saying it's the case here, but what often happens is that if the person isn't doing some significant BODY then they feel like the attack is underpowered.

 

With a Hero/Villain target it's all about the STUN you do.

 

With Normal person target it's about the BODY, because you often will knock the guy out (or at least stun him) with one hit; So it's just a matter of do you hit him hard enough to kill him.

 

As a genarl rule when I'm calculating an attack, I use an above average roll (All 4's on the dice) to see what that will do to a target. If I can live with that result happening on a regular basis then I go with it. If it seems to high or low, then I adjust.

[CrosshairCollie]

If you do decide to keep the big KAs, I'd advise ...

 

1. Making them unwieldy to use for some reason (Concentrate, extra END, etc) and give them Normal damage backup attacks, and

 

2. Have them use the KAs in conjuction with a Presence Attack in the first appearance, on an inanimate object ... if the 6d6+1 KA guy slices an armored car in half effortlessly, you know that your PCs (and their players) know that this guy is DANGEROUS and to treat him as such (assuming they don't just run).

[Guest joen00b]

In all the Champions games I've played, KA's were dealt with this way:

 

Can it kill a 'normal' in one hit? Then it's probably good enough. It's a basic assumption that a 'super' is able to take much more damage than a normal person, what may kill a normal person outright will cause a 'super' to think twice, have an inner monologue and change his strategies.

 

3D6 is more than powerful enough to waste a normal in one hit, even an average hit, 5D6+ would turn them to hamburger patties. If you're a hero, you generally wouldn't want to kill your enemy, bt of course, many folks do play darker campaigns or have rogue vigilante's that run around in their world, and this may be acceptable, but anything over 5D6 is bringing a Fire Truck to a Water Fight.

 

That's my belief at least. I'm not sure I would allow a hero to be walking around with a KA that powerful out of fear he may actually use it.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Obviously your game may vary but I would like to take a second to expound on what Blue posted.

 

Let’s examine the setup you mentioned (a RKA and an AP RKA). Let’s further say both are 60 active points.

 

Your RKA will be 4d6. Rolling all fours that comes out to 16 body and 48 stun. Assuming a character with 20/10 PD/rPD the hero will take 6 body and 28 stun if he is ever hit with the attack. That is major league damage and is quiet possible statistically with RKAs. Odds are that the 20/10 hero will be stunned & thus unable to do anything except recover when his next action comes along … whereupon he will, more than likely, be popped again and dieing if his BOD is 12 or less.

 

Your AP RKA will be 2&1/2d6. Rolling all fours that comes out to 10 body and 30 stun. Your same 20/10 PD/rPD Hero will take 5 body and 20 stun. This is still pretty lethal. While less likely to stun the hero two or three hits will have him on the ground & bleeding his life away.

 

Now I know better than most that point levels and defenses vary from game to game and character to character but many of the 350 point guys I build these days would worry a lot about a 4d6 RKA and would freak at a 5d6 RKA.

 

It's worth noting that KAs can generate monster stun pretty easily too.

[Stray Cat]

Re: Killing Attacks - How Powerful?

 

Well, hmmm... those do seem high. One thing ya might consider is whether the special effect of the attack would require that hefty an attack. Think about what a simple blade would be. Go from there. If in this villain's hands, the attack's power intensity would virtually assure his hunted's demise, ya might want to converse with your player about it. A hunted is a plot device that should be able to show up more than once in the life of a campaign. Is the villain a more powerful hunted for the hero? If so, a high-intensity attack may be justified (paying close attention to special effect), and it will be up the GM and the player to make wise decisions about use of the villain and heroic responses.

 

Cat

 

PS Not to question the PCs' defenses (but I am), is there a reason they are so low? Or am I the outsider here? I'm thinking that a superhero with 6 resistant defense could be in a heap of trouble in a gunfight.

 

Originally posted by TheAuthority

I've made up the Hunted for one of the PC's in my campaign and gave them a melee killing attack and ranged killing attack. How powerful should they be if the rPD/rED for the PC's range from 6 (the Hunted character in question) to 15? I've statted out the KA's at 6d6+1 and 5d6 respectively. Too high? Too low?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Re: Killing Attacks - How Powerful?

 

Originally posted by Stray Cat

Cat

 

PS Not to question the PCs' defenses (but I am), is there a reason they are so low? Or am I the outsider here? I'm thinking that a superhero with 6 resistant defense could be in a heap of trouble in a gunfight.

 

Well.... 6rDEF is fine for a Speedster or Martial Artist. I mean - you also have to succeed with a to-hit roll.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Re: Re: Killing Attacks - How Powerful?

 

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

Well.... 6rDEF is fine for a Speedster or Martial Artist. I mean - you also have to succeed with a to-hit roll.

 

Yes... but you only have to succeed ONCE! Unlike comics, where the writer controls everything, the dice can easily roll low and just cream a character, no matter how appropriate for the story it may be.

 

If this is a campaign of 300-350 point characters, I'd say you are way into overkill, here.

 

In my campaigns... only when PCs started hitting the 500 plus point range, did KAs of 5d6 or more start showing up. Oh... they were around... but the Hero's avoided them.

 

If you are using the normal Stun Multiple rule, you will find one simple fact... 4d6KAs or higher are the most simple and abusable power out there. You have a better than 50% chance of rolling average or high on the body... so the stun multiple can get astronomic very quicly with a 4, 5 or 6. If you play a flat stun multiple... x2 or x3... this can be controlled.

 

Remember, a tank shell is a 6d6 KA... so do you really want this as their average attack? If so... expect to kill some heroes... and expect the players to react to this violent world you've created.

[Stray Cat]

My playing style may be different from others then. I beg pardon for assuming that others operate under the same conditions as myself. We all know what assuming can do.. But I am still concerned that r6 DEF is dangerously low for a superheroic setting. I suppose that 6 rDEF can be acceptable regardless of archetype providing the special effect fits. But if a player came to a superheroic game with a character whose resistant defense was that low, I would be amiss in not explaining the dangers. Afterward, I would NOT bat an eye as a GM if a character with that level of DEF were killed by a stock villain.

 

Two self-imposed rules are going on in my head right now. One is that a game mechanic on a character sheet should be bound by a special effect. (IOW, no 6d6 RKA derringer simply because "my multipower is 90 points" etc.) The other is that player-characters should not be killed in vain. Prior to an encounter (most preferably during character construction), I advocate GM-player interaction in regards to power levels and defenses to help ensure that a PC doesn't die needlessly. I'm not talking about lucky rolls, but adequate defense.

 

It's a good point that Whammewhamme makes about DCV, but I thought that a natural 3 always hit? Is that an incorrect assumption? And too, a speedster or martial artist (with similar combat values to our defender) with a decent blade killing attack can be reasonably expected to cut through 6 rPD. I'm just concerned that the player may not enjoy having his character cut, or neutralized, or worse during a combat sequence on a steady basis. IMHO, it's not heroic to be rescued by one's teammates too often.

 

Bottom line: GMs and players have to talk about their expectations. If all that lines up, then the defense question evaporates. As do power level considerations and many other areas of contention between members of gaming groups.

 

Cat

[Guest TheAuthority]

Re: Re: Killing Attacks - How Powerful?

 

Originally posted by Stray Cat

Not to question the PCs' defenses (but I am), is there a reason they are so low? Or am I the outsider here? I'm thinking that a superhero with 6 resistant defense could be in a heap of trouble in a gunfight.

 

The player in question made a martial artist with 17 OCV/DCV. Obviously he was hoping not to get hit. I suggested he change his character, after playing a mission or two, because I felt his character was unbalanced. He declined saying this was the character he wanted to play. He was quite vehement about it too. So now I need to make his Hunted as powerful as his.

[Guest TheAuthority]

Originally posted by Stray Cat

Bottom line: GMs and players have to talk about their expectations. If all that lines up, then the defense question evaporates. As do power level considerations and many other areas of contention between members of gaming groups.

Cat

 

Believe me, I'm with you on this. I worked closely with my players on their characters. After one or two missions I asked for some changes be made to the PC in question as I'd seen how unbalanced he was. The player vehemently opposed this. So now I've made his Hunted on par with his. I've lowered the KA's after reading the posts here. It's not my intention to kill the PC. But I need to give him a run for his money.

[Blue]

Re: Re: Re: Killing Attacks - How Powerful?

 

Originally posted by TheAuthority

The player in question made a martial artist with 17 OCV/DCV. Obviously he was hoping not to get hit. I suggested he change his character, after playing a mission or two, because I felt his character was unbalanced. He declined saying this was the character he wanted to play. He was quite vehement about it too. So now I need to make his Hunted as powerful as his.

Even with the high OCV/DCV, this guy would probably be toast in my campaign inside of two games. Too many Area Effect, Flash, and Ego attacks (the "Equalizers" as I call them). And my campaign is below average power (300pt rather than 350). It's those area effect attacks that would get him.

 

When I wrote up my campaign I gave players what the Median power is in the campaign, median defense, and then gave them caps on how many active points they could spend on powers (and DEX & SPD).

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Killing Attacks - How Powerful?

 

Originally posted by RDU Neil

Yes... but you only have to succeed ONCE! Unlike comics, where the writer controls everything, the dice can easily roll low and just cream a character, no matter how appropriate for the story it may be.

 

If this is a campaign of 300-350 point characters, I'd say you are way into overkill, here.

 

In my campaigns... only when PCs started hitting the 500 plus point range, did KAs of 5d6 or more start showing up. Oh... they were around... but the Hero's avoided them.

 

If you are using the normal Stun Multiple rule, you will find one simple fact... 4d6KAs or higher are the most simple and abusable power out there. You have a better than 50% chance of rolling average or high on the body... so the stun multiple can get astronomic very quicly with a 4, 5 or 6. If you play a flat stun multiple... x2 or x3... this can be controlled.

 

Remember, a tank shell is a 6d6 KA... so do you really want this as their average attack? If so... expect to kill some heroes... and expect the players to react to this violent world you've created.

 

Quite... I was pointing out that, in a reasonable world, 6 rDEF can work.

I mean - Seeker wasn't TOTALLY unplayable. Er, bad example.

[Stray Cat]

That is unfortunate that your player is unwilling to work with you. Blue's post does add some particularly effective means at equalization. It's hard to hold a game together though if the rest of the team feels punished because of this player's behavior or attitude. Best of luck to ya. An area-effect entangle won't kill the character, but might leave the player sittin on his hands a while to think about the choices he's making. The game needs to be fun for more than one person in the gaming group.

 

Cat

 

Originally posted by TheAuthority

Believe me, I'm with you on this. I worked closely with my players on their characters. After one or two missions I asked for some changes be made to the PC in question as I'd seen how unbalanced he was. The player vehemently opposed this. So now I've made his Hunted on par with his. I've lowered the KA's after reading the posts here. It's not my intention to kill the PC. But I need to give him a run for his money.

[Stray Cat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Killing Attacks - How Powerful?

 

Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. Are we talking an average 350-pt four-color game? Shouldn't superheroes be able to stand up to handgun fire?

 

Cat

 

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

Quite... I was pointing out that, in a reasonable world, 6 rDEF can work.

I mean - Seeker wasn't TOTALLY unplayable. Er, bad example.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Stray Cat

Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. Are we talking an average 350-pt four-color game? Shouldn't superheroes be able to stand up to handgun fire?

 

Cat

 

I'll give an example.

 

Flippant, my PC in G3, in one write up has 5 points of rDEF. He's a teleporting Martial Artist. In a recent fight he bounced two shotgun blasts (reduced penetration), and dodged several rounds of fire from assorted other guns. Were he to be hit, he could be hurt badly.

 

Thing is - you roll a 3 one time in 216, and he has the CON/PD to not be stunned by most hits.

 

So you don't hit. His DCV has yet to be overcome by any attack. (He has been hit by the shotgun [area effect] blasts)

 

Sure, a villain throwing around 6d6 RKA's would have a good chance of bloody well killing him. If he hits.

 

But that's a bloody big attack, as everyone has pointed out on this thread. 3d6 RKA is 'just' serious injury, not death.

[Agent X]

Re: Re: Re: Killing Attacks - How Powerful?

 

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

Well.... 6rDEF is fine for a Speedster or Martial Artist. I mean - you also have to succeed with a to-hit roll.

Yeah, but if you do, splat. And let's not forget those area affect attacks.

 

For guys who aren't supposed to have a ton of defenses it's all in the SFX.

 

Damage Reduction bought with skill rolls, restrainable (or not) or -1/4 costs endurance when hit in order to simulate the effort of "rolling with the attack or making it a grazing wound"

 

You Only Nicked Me! Armor bought that allows one body to go through but then takes off 6 body of attack to keep the not so normal human from dying.

 

Combat Luck - 'nuff said

 

Desolidification - The Ultimate Dodge

 

My Batman would have all of these in a combination that would allow someone like Blockbuster to hit him without taking his head off. In game, it's just this simple - Blockbuster never gets a good hit on Batman, even when he does hit him.