Entangle Based on CON?

[Dr. Anomaly]

I'm having a bit of trouble with an effect I'm trying to model, so I'm appealing to Herodom assembled for help.

 

What I'm trying to do is create a paralyzing drug; I'm trying to do this with Entangle, and I'd like to say vs. CON instead of STR for the breakout, but there doesn't seem to be an option like that.

 

The closest I've been able to come so far is BOECV, Normal Range Applies (+3/4), Entangle Takes No Damage From Physical Attacks (+1/4), Works vs. EGO not STR (+1/4), Susceptible to Alcohol (washes off the chemical) (-1) Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4).

 

There are several problems with this; first, it's vs. EGO, not CON.

 

Second, ideally, having LS: Vacuum/High Pressure would prevent the Entangle from working (can't get to exposed skin) but I don't want to have to buy NND just for that *Limitation*.

 

Third, *EGO* attacks could blast the "chemical" paralysis away.

 

Any notion on how I could model this, without resorting to a *lot* of custom Advantages and Limitations?

[Snarf]

When I wanted this effect, I ended up just doing Drain Dex as a copout. That's sort of paralyzing =/

 

I think the book needs an specific option for paralyzing drug, like it has for mental paralysis.

 

Second, ideally, having LS: Vacuum/High Pressure would prevent the Entangle from working (can't get to exposed skin) but I don't want to have to buy NND just for that *Limitation*.

This could be just be a small conditional power limitation. Something like Conditional Power: Does Not Work On Individuals With LS: Vacuum/High Pressure (-1/4). A whole -1/4 seems like a bit much for that though, unless it's more common than usual in your campaign. If it's not that common, maybe you could expand that to a slightly broader category of protective things.

[Outsider]

I dont think you will be able to buy it without resorting to a lot of custom limitations/advantages.

 

As to determining how much it should cost, I'd start by looking at the advantages/disadvantages it has as compared to a normal entangle.

 

 

What you're after seems to be an Entangle that:

1) Operates against a stat that is rarely bought up past 30, and is more usually 2/3 that. (your campaign may vary)

2) Cannot be broken by other powers that the target is likely to have (like physical or energy attacks)

3) Is impervious to anything the entangled person's allies are likely to be able to bring to bear on it (who carries around rubbing alcohol?)

4) That allows others to freely attack the entangled character with physical/energy attacks without harming the entangle.

5) Cannot be used to create barriers

6) Cannot be used to provide a bit of extra defence to the helpless/weak. (Entagling normally provides 1 def per die, and absorbs about 1 body/die (ablatively), thus can be thrown on a normal in danger to prevent them dying/taking body)

 

 

All this in mind, I'd finagle the advantages (overall) to work out to about a +1. In a 60 active point campaign, thats a 3 def, 3 body Entanle that people break out of on their own only, using their CON. Normals will be held for some time (only doing Body to the Entangle 1 phase in 36) , middle ground supers being held a couple phases, and particularly robust ones losing only a phase.

 

I would allow the "cant form barriers" limitation, but am pretty iffy about the rubs off with alcohol one at -1, unless the campaign takes place in a distillery. I'd -maybe- give that a -1/4, and that would include the other special effect limitations like the need for some tiny portion of skin to be exposed. If the required skin exposure could be avoided by wearing significantly less than a space suit, it might be worth its own lim.

 

Just my take on it.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Well, since it's a chemical, I figured that the first thing people would do is try some kind of solvent...and alcohol is one that comes readily to hand. Further, it doesn't have to be rubbing alcohol...any kind of sufficiently strong alcohol will do the trick (i.e. not beer or wine, but any liquor, spirit, etc.). In a city, you're seldom more than a block away from a restaraunt, liquor store, gas station, or whatever...all of which are easy places to get alcohol. Still, perhaps doing "Susceptible: Water" would be better, letting ordinary water wash it off.

 

I suppose I should probably have it get weaker over time on its own, as the drug begins to wear off. Perhaps giving it an Ablative based on time? I.E. each post-12 it goes one lower on the Ablative chart; if it ever fails an Activation check, then the drug is assumed to have "worn off" and the person is automatically freed?

[Outsider]

Actually, based on the special effect, I was iffy about having it wipe off at all. By the time it is paralyzing people, its been absorbed into their system, presumably. Wiping it off wont suddenly unparalyze them.

 

You do like the idea of having it ablate over time. Wiping off the excess would then speed up the ablation process, or jsut start it (as long as the person has the goop on them, it wont wear off).

 

You could go with Based on ECV (+1), Ego Power based on Con (-1/2), No Barrier Formation (-1/4)

 

 

 

You cold also make it a Continuous, Uncontrolled, Sticky. (paralyzing goop attack) with an END battery/charges to represent how much goop you shoot. Washing off the excess goop prevents future attacks, but wont, of course, undo the results of past ones. The advantage of this write up is that it means the longer the gunk is on someone, the more paralyzed they are (each extra phase adds 1 body to the entagle) and hteir friends trying to scrape it off without proper protection end up getting goopy up too. The down side is that it is another +2 in advantages, which probably makes the entangle too small in the first place. (40 active pre d6)

[Steve Long]

I don't normally weigh in on threads in the Discussion area, but in this case I have a useful, discrete tip: for optional rules about applying Entangles to characteristics other than STR (or EGO), see my HEROglyphs column in DIGITAL HERO #5.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Steve Long

I don't normally weigh in on threads in the Discussion area....

Hopefully, Steve, you and the other staff are casting your votes in the Supplement By Committee/Ultimate Disadvantage threads. I can understand your reluctance to actually type words in those threads, but you all are certainly welcome -- invited, even -- to cast your votes.

[AtomicGladiator]

Don't understand why such an entangle would need to be bought BOECV. That means you'd use ECV to target the victim. That's not necessary. It's just an entangle that works VS CON rather than STR, so why not just add that as a custom advantage worth +1/2, and throw in the other limitations and advantages as you need them....entangle takes no damage, cannot form barriers, fades over time or whatever. It's the BOECV that I'm questioning here.

 

EDIT: Yeah, you'd have to use the "cannot be escaped by teleportation" advantage as well, I'm guessing.

[Col. Orange]

Thing is, Entangles an all or nothing thing - you're either restrained by the Entangle or you're not.

Drugs/chemicals have to work out of you system, you don't just shrug off their effect and you're as good as new. Drain is probably a better way of doing it - Drain STR? (If your STR hits zero or less do you have to start making STR rolls to do anything, like with EGO and INT?)

[TheEmerged]

Here's something you might not have thought of: using Mental Illusions with Based On Con instead. MI already has a mechanic for making the character unable to move physically, after all -- and this ability is QUITE powerful and should cost accordingly IMO. You can make this more gradual the cumulative advantage too.

[Doc Democracy]

The whole issue of drug based disablement is one that has bugged me about Hero. The system doesn't seem to handle it particularly well and there are many work arounds that don't really seem to work either.

 

I was thinking that there might be another way of handling it. I can't decide what the name of the power should be (something like Inhibition) but essentially you decide whether the power affect physical abilities (movement, combat etc), mental abilities (ego combat, perception etc) or both.

 

I cant decide whether to make it a step by step thing:

Each 1D6 of the inhibition power would reduce the effectiveness of the powers chosen by 1DC and a give -1 to the CV (or applicable skill roll).

 

So 4D6 Physical Inhibition would mean that a STR 70 brick would be sluggish and only able to effecitvely use STR 50 and a STR 20 martial artist would be using STR 0. Both would be at -4 to their OCV.

 

Or make it a bigger step thing like damage reduction:

25% reduction in physical/mental skills

50% reduction in physical/mental skills

75% reduction in physical/mental skills

 

I'm inclined towards the latter and basing it upon the costs of damage reduction but I think that removes some flexibility that might be inherent in the former way.

 

Doc

[Caveman]

That is why I agree with the post about mental Illusions based on con. It covers pretty well it's just the name doesn't sound right. As for the effect you want, a mixture of drains and mental illusions based on con would be perfect. After all you wanting a powerful effect so I think it should be somewhat costly. This way it won't be over balancing. add in MI BOC that are cummulative and Unc. Cont. . that would just about do it.

 

Don't get hung up on the names of the powers though. They are just ways to get to the effects you want.

 

 

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

The whole issue of drug based disablement is one that has bugged me about Hero. The system doesn't seem to handle it particularly well and there are many work arounds that don't really seem to work either.

 

I was thinking that there might be another way of handling it. I can't decide what the name of the power should be (something like Inhibition) but essentially you decide whether the power affect physical abilities (movement, combat etc), mental abilities (ego combat, perception etc) or both.

 

I cant decide whether to make it a step by step thing:

Each 1D6 of the inhibition power would reduce the effectiveness of the powers chosen by 1DC and a give -1 to the CV (or applicable skill roll).

 

So 4D6 Physical Inhibition would mean that a STR 70 brick would be sluggish and only able to effecitvely use STR 50 and a STR 20 martial artist would be using STR 0. Both would be at -4 to their OCV.

 

Or make it a bigger step thing like damage reduction:

25% reduction in physical/mental skills

50% reduction in physical/mental skills

75% reduction in physical/mental skills

 

I'm inclined towards the latter and basing it upon the costs of damage reduction but I think that removes some flexibility that might be inherent in the former way.

 

Doc

[BNakagawa]

Would this thing work on targets with non-standard nervous systems or whatnot? Undead? Golems? Clockwork automatons?

[Dr. Anomaly]

If you look back at my original post, I said that I wanted it to NOT work on someone with LS: Vacuum/High Pressure, since that would indicate a sealed environment...or skin so tough a chemical probably wouldn't be absorbed through it anyway.

 

Edit: Okay, so BNakagawa edited his post while I was posting my relpy...but my reply still stands. Things like automatons often have that kind of environmental protection anyway, or don't have a CON score, which would defeat it if it were based on CON...or don't have an EGO, which would defeat it if it were some combination of Mental Illusions.

[zornwil]

Dr. A, did you check out Steve's article? Just wondering if so if it worked for you.

 

I don't know what's in that; I'd personally say you'd just have to create a custom advantage of Based on CON and cost it out, as I think was suggested here already.

[KA.]

I checked Digital Hero.

Steve's article is well worth checking out for anyone who wants to get more creative with Entangles.

 

 

Here is my shot at what you are trying to do:

 

 

Cost	Power	END
32	Entangle 4d6, 4 DEF, Based on CON (+1/4), Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2) (80 Active Points); Susceptible to Alcohol Very Common (-1), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Requires Skin Contact (-1/4)	8

Powers Cost: 32

 

 

The modifiers I made up were:

Based on CON +1/4

and

Requires Skin Contact -1/4

 

My reasoning is that being based on CON rather than STR or Damage like a normal Entangle is something of an Advantage, since many people have a higher STR than CON, but not much of one, since high CON is also quite common.

 

Requiring Skin Contact is a small Limitation, since there are quite a few people in the Supers world that are fully covered.

Most people have some exposed skin, but if a GM wanted to be a stickler, you would either have to buy this "Area Effect 1 Hex", or get out the "Hit Location Chart" to find out if you actually managed to hit bare skin, or take a Penalty to your "To Hit" roll, unless the target was naked.

 

Just some thoughts,

 

KA.

[Dr. Anomaly]

You're right, that's a very good solution to the my problem.

 

Zornwil, I hadn't checked Steve's article because, even though I have paid for and downloaded every issue of Digital Hero so far, I couldn't find where I'd put them. I know I'd burned off a copy just in case, but I also thought I'd left them on my hard drive. As it happens, I couldn't find either one.

 

It wasn't until a short time ago that the thickheaded yours truly remembered that having paid for them *once*, you can download them over and over and over...

 

...so I now have new copies on my drive, safely ensconced in my folder wherein reside all things HERO, in their own clearly labeled "Digital Hero" folder.

 

And yes, as you'd expect, Steve's article is a good one!

[Eodin]

FWIW

 

[already answered]