The Whole Shebang

[Gary]

Ok, let's assume that there's a war between Marvel Earth and DC Earth. All heroes and villains on both sides get involved. Which Universe survives?

 

To make it fair, there are certain ground rules:

 

1) No beings that don't inhabit the Earth most of the time such as Galactus or Darkseid allowed. This would include most dieties as well. Dieties such as Thor who does spend most of his time on Earth can play.

 

2) No outright Deus Ex Machinas. No Cosmic Cubes, time travel, ultimate nullifiers, etc.

 

3) No conceptual beings such as Death or Dream allowed.

 

4) Only heroes and villains allowed. No military and no governments are involved.

 

5) Anything else that I can think of that would end the fight in one stroke is illegal.

 

Which Earth is more powerful?

 

edit: Please ignore this thread and go to the poll. I forgot to make this a poll.

[Bengal]

Well, Marvel has Doom, Richards, Pym, Banner, and Stark. DC Has Luthor, Kord, uhm...

 

Point to Marvel.

 

 

Marvel has the Squadron Supreme and the Avengers, and the mutants. DC has the JLA, JSA, Doom Patrol, and, uhm... Infinity Inc.

 

Point to Marvel.

 

 

DC has Batman, Marvel has Captain America.

 

Forget point to Marvel, point straight-up to Cap.

 

 

 

I would say, the battle would have to be very close. But in the end, Captain America would climb up on top of a huge pile of dead bodies. Marvel wins.

[farik]

by your rules then I agree Marvel wins because government influence and outerspace characters are more common in DC so they're ultimately handicapped.

[Chuckg]

/All/ heroes?

 

DCU has the Spectre, the Thunderbolt, the... ummm, the Spectre just blocked the Silver Surfer, and the Thunderbolt just turned the entire planet Earth and all of its inhabitants into a grape...(*)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(*) No guys, seriously, the 5-dimensional imps of the DCU -- of which the Thunderbolt is one -- are powerful on a scale that makes Cosmic Cubes look /weak/. The only thing that keeps the Thunderbolt from totally over-ruling every JSA story is that he can only do what his "handler" tells him to do, no more and no less -- and his handler is, unless another smarter teammate is yelling directly in his ear and giving him step-by-step directions -- a complete imbecile.

[farik]

But the Spectre is excluded as a concept character and the thunderbolt is excluded because as you pointed out he can win the fight in the time it takes to make a wish.

[Blue]

It's inevitable that pitting heroes against heroes will only yield an eventual coexistance. It happens in every crossover. Sorry, I just can't bring my head to go there because everything I've ever read eventually winds up with the united sides turning on whoever caused it.

 

Seems my imagination is now stunted forever.

[Benzini]

Originally posted by Blue

It's inevitable that pitting heroes against heroes will only yield an eventual coexistance. It happens in every crossover. Sorry, I just can't bring my head to go there because everything I've ever read eventually winds up with the united sides turning on whoever caused it.

 

Try reading some Fred Hembeck, He has no trouble destroying characters. My favorite was the Human Torch vs Martian Manhunter

[Mike W]

It's well established that the DCU operates on a larger power scale...HOWEVER...Marvel characters in general, heroes especially, tend to fight smarter because they are used to fighting things that are far more powerful than they are. JLA has gotten better, but the last time I checked in on JLA(which was about a year ago for a couple of issues), they still didn't fight nearly as cohesively as, say, the Avengers or the X-Men(especially with Cyclops in charge). This makes it an essentially even fight and it would come down to match ups. Flip a coin.

[Chuckg]

Mike W -- actually, when push comes to shove, the JLA has cohesion on a level that only Claremont's classic X-Men could equal. Check out 'Terror Incognita' for an example of just how well the JLA can "click".

 

The JLA does not often bother using complex or finely-honed teamwork for the very simple reason that with the cosmic power levels they can toss around, they very seldom /need/ to. But when they /have/ to -- such as, for example, when facing seventy beings with Superman-class physical stats, near-Xavier-class telepathy, who can turn intangible and invisible and move at superspeed -- they can haul it out more than well enough.

[Mike W]

Chuckg -

 

I agree that they CAN fight as a unit very well, but as you yourself pointed out, they usually don't, until they find themselves in trouble - which is the kind of opening a well led opposing team could exploit to make it a very difficult comeback. Let's face it, the JLA can outpower just about anything that they get thrown on the field with(one of the reasons I've never been a big fan of the book, just certain characters in their individual books) - hence they tend to, as a group, fight as if they have that classic Thor/Superman disad - Heroicly Stupid. People with such disad charge blindly into combat ignoring half of their abilities and try to turn every fight into a slugfest. While this tactic works fine against many foes, when confronted with a particularly intelligent or powerful foe, it usually means they get their butts kicked in round one and have to try and regroup. Hence, we get an even fight because the DC people, especially if the JLA is "in charge" probably just try to plow in and overpower the less powerful Marvel characters - who led by Cap, Wasp, Cyke, and Jean Grey fight with an intelligent strategy from the start.

[Chuckg]

[snip]

> hence they tend to, as a group, fight as if they have that

> classic Thor/Superman disad - Heroicly Stupid. People with

> such disad charge blindly into combat ignoring half of their

> abilities and try to turn every fight into a slugfest.

 

Really? Let's run down the Big Seven... I'm not going to do the current lineup 'cause I don't know some of the members very well.

 

Superman -- he's a brick. He slugfests 'cause that's what bricks do. This does not mean he is stupid -- it's his *job* to be the chief damage sponge. (Given that he can walk away from multi-megaton thermonuclear explosions with only his hair mussed, that's not stupid.)

 

Wonder Woman -- likewise, she's a brick. She's a very martially-trained brick, however.

 

Martian Manhunter -- most definitely does /not/ stupidly ignore half his abilities, unless he's guest-starring in a Superman title and Loeb is making him job again. J'onn fights smart and tricky and making the best use of his extremely versatile powerset.

 

The Flash -- charging is his best move, as his chief weapon is the fact that he gets initiative vs. anything else in the universe.

 

Green Lantern -- in JLA comics, Kyle does /not/ usually charge in stupidly -- he hangs back and does what the flying energy blaster is /supposed/ to do, provide ranged fire support. That Cosmic VPP of his isn't used until after a couple of Phases, true.

 

Aquaman -- you know, few JLA fights are won or lost on what Aquman chooses to do, unless it's in the ocean.

 

Batman -- to make the understatement of the century, Batman doesn't get caught charging stupidly or blindly very often.

 

AAMOF, Batman doesn't get caught very often. Period.

 

[snip]

> Hence, we get an even fight because the DC people,

> especially if the JLA is "in charge" probably just try to plow

> in and overpower the less powerful Marvel characters - who

> led by Cap, Wasp, Cyke, and Jean Grey fight with an

> intelligent strategy from the start.

 

Incorrect. If the JLA does not know their opponents, charging stupidly is very seldom on the agenda -- Batman and J'onn (and possibly Wally) do reconnaissance first. Remember, most JLA fights in the comics are vs. opposition that they already know, or is plainly visible that they have the edge over... they're 'charging straight in' not because they're blind, but because they already know that the odds are favorable.

 

The Marvel heroes in this fight would be neither... they'd not only be unknowns, but formidable-looking unknowns. The JLA does not routinely charge straight in vs. total unknowns of considerable power unless innocent lives are in immediate danger and there's no time to think.

 

Furthermore, if you're talking about a massive 'everybody fight', then the JLA is only one of your worries -- because if the JLA is on point, then the Justice Society is the strategic reserve... and *that* team not only routinely uses excellent teamwork, but doesn't charge blindly *anywhere*. And it has its own obnoxious raw power advantages of its own.

 

You've got Cap, Wasp, and Cyclops? I see and raise you with Batman, Mr. Terrific, and the Martian Manhunter.

[Metaphysician]

You mean like how Thor forgets that he can do more than hit hard, and Iron Man forgets that he can do more than fly and shoot??

 

"Heroic Stupidity" works both ways.

[Gary]

Comic book genre convention seems to mean that the heroes on both sides will tend to pair off against each other no matter how idiotic it appears to be. This genre convention is so powerful that no amount of good tactics can negate it.

 

That's what prevents Flash from wiping out 100 Marvelites in one phase, or Thor from sending 100 DC'ers to Niffleim with his hammer in the first phase.

[Tim]

DC Wins:

Strength Benchmark - Supes is the strongest there is and outlifts Hulk or Thor

 

Speed Benchmark - C'mon. Flash vs... Quicksilver. No contest.

 

Invulnerability Benchmark - Again Sues leads the way in this catagory.

 

Magic Benchmark - Marvel has Doc Strange and Scarlet Witch. Most of the rest just come by earth every now and then. DC has Zatanna, Doctor Fate,and several other resident Maficians.

 

Raw Power Benchmark - DC heros are generally way higher powered than Marvel.

 

Marvel Wins:

Mental Power Benchmark - I'm not sure who is more powerful Gorilla Grodd or Martian Manhunter, but neither can hold a candle to Prof X, Jean Grey, or any other Marvel telepath.

 

Regen Benchmark - Lobo may be unkillable and regen back from anything, but so can Wolvie, Deadpool, and quite a few other Marve Heros AND Villians

 

Dexterity Benchmark - In DC, Nightwing is considered to have the best agility. Marvel has Spidey, Nightcrawler, the Beast, and many more who should be able to tumble rings around him.

 

Smarts Benchmark - DC has Batman for Detective work, Lex Lutor for science, and Gorilla Grodd.When they need Scientific Help, they turn to STAR labs. Marvel has Mr. Fantastic, Tony Stark, the Thinker, Herny Pym, and many others. When they need science help they turn to themselves.

 

Leadership Benchmark - No one can out leadership Captian America, no one. Then follow behind with Cyclops, Storm, The Red Skull, etc. DC has Supes.

 

I know I did not list all of the possible contenders of each, but I can't recall everybody.

 

As for the Stealth Benchmark - I couldn't decide. DC has the Bat family, Black Canary, Catwoman, Deathstroke. Marvel has Spidey, Daredevil, Elektra, Psylocke, and a whole host of Ninjas. I couldn't decide.

[Chuckg]

> Mental Power Benchmark - I'm not sure who is more

> powerful Gorilla Grodd or Martian Manhunter, but neither

> can hold a candle to Prof X, Jean Grey, or any other Marvel

> telepath.

 

The average Pale Martian can psionically control several hundred thousand people to commit suicide simultaneously.

 

J'onn J'onnz has successfully held off six Pale Martians in psionic combat, after having been tortured and weakened for weeks. (JLA: Terror incognita)

 

 

Other psionic feats for J'onn include simultaneously scanning the surface thoughts of the entire population of the planet Earth (MARTIAN MANHUNTER solo title), blocking out the psionic broadcast of a mental weapon that slew an entire planetful of gods (JLA: World War III), and that's just barely scratching the surface.

 

As a pacifist Green Martian philosopher, the Martian Manhunter very *very* seldom actually uses his full mental power. But when he *has* used it, he's done things that only the higher-end appearances of Xavier can match, and absolutely crush any incarnation of Jean Grey save those involving the Phoenix Force.

[Chuckg]

> Leadership Benchmark - No one can out leadership Captian

> America, no one. Then follow behind with Cyclops, Storm,

> The Red Skull, etc. DC has Supes.

 

... and Nightwing(*), Mr. Terrific, the Martian Manhunter, and several others.

 

 

 

 

 

(*) Nightwing's performance as leader of the Teen Titans, and then several of the later Titans incarnations, is only exceeded in the MU by Captain America -- and then not by much.

[Metaphysician]

Actually, I'd peg Hulk as stronger than Superman.

 

Problem isn't that DC has more strength; its that most of their top end bricks are also top end speedsters.

[Gary]

Nefaria is also near the top of the pecking order for Marvel bricks. He once punched a max density Vision straight upward, through at least 5 separate 5' floors of solid omnium steel, and then through about 5-8 feet of solid rock. Vision was still flying upward at the end of that panel.

 

In game terms, a 5' solid Omnium steel floor is probably at least 20 def 18 body. Thus, Nefaria did well over 200" of knockback in champions terms...

[Metaphysician]

To be fair, that was probably a Brick Trick. Still, Nefaria definitely has strength in the Superman class, give or take. In Champs terms, he's probably >100 STR plus either a scary big multipower of brick tricks, or an equally scary big VPP of brick/speedster tricks.

[Gary]

If it's not simply gawdawful Str, even with Double Knockback, how would you build that in Champions terms? Those omnium steel floors and the bedrock all had Vision sized holes in them.

[Mike W]

Maybe they've gotten better recently, but I can still remember a lot of situations where they would "scout the opposition" only to fall back on their basic tactics of plow ahead once it comes down to the fight. I mean it's a standard joke in the DCU books that the JLA tactics are basically "We just plow in and wait for Bats to figure it out". Sure, the individual people don't necessarily engage everyone at hand to hand, but there is rarely any attempt to coordinate attacks, trade partners, or engage in anything resembling true battlefield strategy in many of those fights. This is why Batman has to beat the Martians by himself in the opening story arc, for example.

[SomeAsianKid]

Question: What earth are they fighting on? This has a very big impact because there is a current story arc of JLA vs Avengers right now, and when flash went into Marvel Earth, there was no speed force and he lost his powers.

 

All in all though, I would say Marvel would win just because I like them better. Everyone in DC is just stupidly retardly powerful.

 

As for actual fighting the Scarlet Witch could just curse GL with bad luck and the ring falls off, and the combined powers of Onslaught and Pheonix would take out the rest. Domino would use her luck powers and cause the flash to sneeze at superspeed and blow a hole through batman's brain. Heck, Storm was able to defeat Wonder Woman solo in the official DC vs Marvel write-up.

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by Gary

If it's not simply gawdawful Str, even with Double Knockback, how would you build that in Champions terms? Those omnium steel floors and the bedrock all had Vision sized holes in them.

 

Superleap or Tunneling, UOO, linked to STR:)

[SomeAsianKid]

In response to the Green Martian's telepathic powerlevels, I'd just like to point out that Professor X solo'ed the Pheonix Force in telepathic combat, a creating force of the universe. As Onslaught Professor X literally solo'ed the entire Marvel universe. With the combined might of Prof. X, Jean Grey, White Queen, Shadow King (who is powerful enough to give Xavier problems in telepathic combat), Moon Dragon, Oracle, and even the Stepford Cuckoos combined could definately take out the Martian.

[Chuckg]

re: the Nefaria knockback...

 

 

In "JLA: New World Order", Superman slammed Protex through the earth's crust -- all the way from the first magma layer up to the surface.

 

That's over twenty-five miles of solid rock.

 

Edit -- incidentally, it's a benchmark of Pale Martian durability that Superman had to drag Protex down from the surface of the Earth to the magma layer, knock him about a bit there, and then punch him back up through the entire crust of the planet before Protex finally fell unconscious.

 

 

 

re: the Xavier feat...

 

The Phoenix feat, if you're referring to the one done in the first Dark Phoenix arc, does not count as a benchmark of Xavier's power -- as Xavier explicitly mentions at the time, if Jean's own subconscious hadn't been deliberately going along with him from the inside, Dark Phoenix would have killed him. i.e. -- Xavier had help. *Big* help.

 

 

The Onslaught feat you're referring to doesn't count because IIRC, at that time Onslaught was tapping the power of Franklin Richards to bolster his own... and Franklin is a cosmic plot device on the same order as the Spectre or the Thunderbolt.