Demonsong Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Power Scale of Viper vs. UNTIL a little off? I understand that UNTIL is a legal organization that has slightly better technology. But I find it hard to believe that you’re every day Viper agent would go in to combat with that pop gun….er um I mean stander issue blaster rife. Why would viper spend all that time and money developing and producing blaster technology, when an AK 47 (or any other assault rife) is much more easily available and much more effective against most targets? The UNTIL standard issue weapon is respectable (very respectable especially when compared to Vipers pop gun), and I can understand why the good guys would use blasters, not wanting to kill people. But Viper is a terrorist origination. Why would they ever use underpowered blasters instead of normal guns?This is only reinforced when you read about how the average Viper trooper is a killer mad dog type. I can jus see it now… -Nest Leader “Agent Maddog what are you doing with that Uzi?†-Agent Maddog “Sir its just that my Uzi with APDS rounds is much more effective, easier to matinee, and costs less than my pop gun ….. er ummm …. I mean standard issue blaster rife†-Nest Leader “You are correct Agent Maddog. However this is Viper! The largest and most feared terrorist organization the world. We have a reputation to live up to! So you will use your pop gun and you will like it because you were told to do you understand me Agent!†-Agent Maddog “Yes SIR! I Understand you SIR! But if I may ask a question sir?†-Nest Leader “No you may not ask a question! Now pick up your pop gun and get ready to move out†-Agent Maddog “Yes Sir!!†Finally it looks to me that the only thing Viper has going for them is the element of surprise. In any kind of stand up (all things being equal) fight UNTIL is going to kick the hell out of Viper. For some reason I just felt that the scary Viper origination when compared to UNTIL is just underpowered. What do you think? IMPORTANT NOTE!!!!! Both book are outstanding and I highly recommend them for any one even remotely interested in any kind of campaign that uses modern technology. Fun reads with lots cool information. Later Demonsong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 As I undertand it, the VIPER 'pop gun' is meant for Nests that are using it to shred the local PD and gang-bangers. If they're expecting heavy superhuman combat, and aren't having a Nest budget crunch that month, they pass out the laser RKAs and the 14d6 Sledgehammers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Keneton Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I am not sure about the ammunition you list, but an UZI is 1d6+1 K AF5, which is to say less effective than 8d6 EB or a 7d6 AF5 when fighting UNTIL in their armor. I agree UNTIL's base level equipment is bettr, but VIPER's high end stuff is pretty serious. 10d6 RKA railgun is something to be feared! I do agree some real world assult rifles would be better than the standard VIPER weapons, but then again you cant spread a bullet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonsong Posted February 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I am not sure about the ammunition you list, but an UZI is 1d6+1 K AF5, which is to say less effective than 8d6 EB or a 7d6 AF5 when fighting UNTIL in their armor. I was just messing around and picked the uzi out of a hat. I am talking mainly about assault rifes. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Re: Power Scale of Viper vs. UNTIL a little off? Originally posted by Demonsong I-Nest Leader “Agent Maddog what are you doing with that Uzi?†-Agent Maddog “Sir its just that my Uzi with APDS rounds is much more effective, easier to matinee, and costs less than my pop gun ….. er ummm …. I mean standard issue blaster rife†-Nest Leader “You are correct Agent Maddog. However this is Viper! The largest and most feared terrorist organization the world. We have a reputation to live up to! So you will use your pop gun and you will like it because you were told to do you understand me Agent!†-Agent Maddog “Yes SIR! I Understand you SIR! But if I may ask a question sir?†-Nest Leader “No you may not ask a question! Now pick up your pop gun and get ready to move out†-Agent Maddog “Yes Sir!!†What do you think? Hee. Director Matthews and Director Jones from VIPER Legal and VIPER PR, respectively, come for a visit with Agent Maddog and have a little talking to him about the Image and Legal problems with using a "real gun". "Viper carrying blaster weapons is a "criminal organization". Viper carrying fully automatic "real guns" down the street becomes a military group, to be wiped out by the military." "Viper carrying real guns and using them get busted for "assault with a deadly weapon", whereas blasters are "non-lethal" technology (just ask the UNTIL people who use it too) and so carry a lesser penalty under law." And Director Arthur from Quartermaster's.... "Viper has many many more standard agents than Until does. Hence, their standard gun is slightly weaker than the one Until uses. Good agents get better guns. So, become a Heavy Weapons Agent, so you can carry one of the nice 14d6 EBs." D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanderbilt_Grad Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Don’t have either book, but to me there is a psychological aspect as well. Sure normal people are afraid of terrorists with guns and bombs … but those guys are a dime a dozen. A terrorist with *ray guns* … now that is a cat of a different color. If they have *ray guns* who knows what else they can do?! I imagine that their tech separates them from the common mass of criminals and thugs and is part of the aura of fear that I’m sure that they want to impart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbarron Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Maybe Viper doesn't want their "mad dog killers" to have weapons that can easily be turned very effectively against their masters. Also, it's out of genre for supers and G.I. Joe type games for people to be getting killed left and right. If you want a more lethal game, make the switch to assault weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 On the purely game-mechanical front, all those real-world assault rifles and what not are built with the "Real Weapon" Limitation, meaning that they have to be cleaned and serviced regularly or may fail, and have whatever other restrictions on their capabilities the GM feels is appropriate. They also have STR Minimums for who can effectively use them. VIPER blasters are Comic-Book Tech, and so have none of those practical restrictions. I know this next isn't HERO canon, so perhaps it doesn't belong in this discussion; but I've had some good results defining the restrictions on what weapons built with Real Weapon (virtually all the "real world" arsenal in FREd) can do. Specifically, I've ruled that if weapons with that Lim are unable to do BODY to a target with Resistant Defense with their best damage roll, then no STUN damage gets through to that target, either. The weapon doesn't have to do BODY on a particular roll, just be capable of it. This has been great for simulating that "brick walks through hail of bullets unscathed" scenario. It also justifies agents carrying blasters rather than assault rifles - they're generally more effective against the kind of super opposition agents are likely to face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 8d6 EB for the basic blaster is still pretty damn good. Sure, non-resistant defense applies, but against the normals that are the main target for them, you'll still do Body. . . and you'll get an all but guaranteed CON stun. Whats more, against superheroes, these are probably more effective than an equal DC RKA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I decided in my games that "Normals" (Very few characters qualify for that title, even Batman type characters are usualy considered Paranormals) have a list of lims they must take: x2 Stun from Blasters x2 Effect from Mental powers NCM Phys Lim (Slow healer) Adds up to 75 points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by Keneton I do agree some real world assult rifles would be better than the standard VIPER weapons, but then again you cant spread a bullet! I was in a game once where this guy tried to do that (spread a Physical RKA defined as a gun) He had found weakness with it as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by JmOz I decided in my games that "Normals" (Very few characters qualify for that title, even Batman type characters are usualy considered Paranormals) have a list of lims they must take: x2 Stun from Blasters x2 Effect from Mental powers NCM Phys Lim (Slow healer) Adds up to 75 points I take it "ordinary" humans exist in your game for no purpose other than being trashed and tossed around by the supers?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by Metaphysician I take it "ordinary" humans exist in your game for no purpose other than being trashed and tossed around by the supers?? Which is consistent with comic books. You dont see Rick Jones slowing down the Abomination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by Agent X You dont see Rick Jones slowing down the Abomination. Never say never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengal Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Way off topic here, but I DID see Rick take out the Taskmaster once, which is pretty darn cool. Taskmaster is at least Cap's equal in fighting skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Actually, Rick Jones can take down monsters several times bigger than him with just HtH fighting skill. Bad example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Originally posted by Metaphysician Actually, Rick Jones can take down monsters several times bigger than him with just HtH fighting skill. Bad example. Has Rick Jones taken out the Abomination? Is the Taskmaster or are the monsters mentioned of the same caliber as the Abomination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 No, but the point stands. Besides, the Abomination is a good deal above the average super hero, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Hypothetically speaking, what if Rick Jones dumped a bowl of something sticky and bilnding (like, oh, sticky taffy) on the Abomination's face and eyes, would that count as "taking out"? Sure, the Abomination's still moving, but he's also suffering one ugly Uncontrolled Continuous NND Sight Group Flash (defense is having removable eye protection or Force Field, washing off the substance stops the Continuous). Hey, at least it'd keep the Abomination busy for a while until Thor got there. Don't laugh. In a game session in the campaign I play in a few weeks ago, one of our party was assaulted by a teleporting killer robot sent by Mechanon while eating in a 5-star restaurant.. on a date, in his Secret ID. So he couldn't use any of his superpowers. His Secret ID now has a minor reputation for quick thinking under pressure... because he simply whipped the tablecloth off the table and threw it over the robot's head. Which bought him enough time to "make his escape"... and pop his Instant Change, swoop back in as 'first superhero arriving on scene', and kick robot ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 You don't have to worry about UNTIL agents being better-armed than VIPER agents. UNTIL is a part of the United Nations (that's what the first two letters of UNTIL stand for). And as everyone knows, U.N. troops always leave as soon as the shooting starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonsong Posted February 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 And as everyone knows, U.N. troops always leave as soon as the shooting starts. Is it PC of me to think thats funny? Because thats funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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