Anti-Mutant Racism

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Yeah but game balance doesn't fly in the MU. Look at any of the posts on X vs. Y wherein X is a Marvellian and Y is a Dee Cee.

I dont mean between Marvel and DC, I mean it in the context of players making new characters for a CU campaign.

 

 

 

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Though I gotta say it is a fair shake better to be a mutant than "uh, I'm an Alien?" from the lazy people dept.

Im an Alien takes more work -- if the GM requires that you provide a detailed treatment of this Alien race (and I do).

 

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

And though you might argue that it was created as an anti racist statement in the 60's it definately is about anti-any racism.

I didnt raise or address this point -- might be confusing me for someone else.

[SomeAsianKid]

"In a world where we have been working to overcome prejudice for the past several decades, the notion that anti-muatant prejudice is so potent and pervasive is just out and out wrong."

 

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Having been the vitcim of racism and discrimination on wayyy too many accounts, I can entirely see how mutants, people who look radically different, people who have powers of all things, could be hated in such a way. Prejudice isn't always straightforward now a days, most of the time it's behind your back. You'ld be suprised at what people say when they don't think you're within earshot of them. And then there's the straight forward discrimination. I've been there. I've had people hate me so much they burst into tears, all because of my ethnicity. Hate knows no reason, fear knows no logic.

 

I think Lupus does a good job of justifying the reaction against mutants versus other types of supers. To start with, most type of supers look normal. The public views them like celebs. Mutants, on the other hands, can look like things off a horror movie. They can be anyone. And the main thing is, you're not afraid of Thor because he's a hero. He has morals and ethics and works to defend the world. John Doe on the other hand could have lethal powers, and have no such morals or qualms.

 

Also on the religious thing, if anyone's reading Thor currently a priest from the Vatican used a nuke on Thor. I think that's the religious movement definately taking a stance.

 

All in all I like the X-men's current mutant issues. I have always thought that humans would get jealous of mutant powers, and that they would harvest mutants for their powers, and lo and behold, they create a storyline behind that! The third race, they call themselves, transplant mutant organs and genes to gain their powers. Also, currently in the X-universe, humanity will die out in three generations and everyone will be born a mutant. Storm's team of X-men are having to deal with a world where being a mutant is now the in thing. Instead of defending a lone mutant from the mass public, humanity is having to be protected by mutant street gangs. Very cool stuff imo.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by SomeAsianKid

"I think Lupus does a good job of justifying the reaction against mutants versus other types of supers. To start with, most type of supers look normal. The public views them like celebs. Mutants, on the other hands, can look like things off a horror movie. They can be anyone.

 

The ratio of horrific-looking supers to normal-looking supers to good-looking supers is about equal between mutants and non-mutants in the MU. At least, as far as press coverage goes.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by SomeAsianKid

Also on the religious thing, if anyone's reading Thor currently a priest from the Vatican used a nuke on Thor. I think that's the religious movement definately taking a stance.

I know the Catholic Church is filthy rich, but I didnt realize they had their own nuclear arsenal

[Chuckg]

1) Isn't that whole Thor arc taking place in an alternate future?

 

2) Man, Marvel's got some *WEIRD*-ass writers. Speaking as a Catholic... sheesh, Marvel. Sense of proportion? Ever heard of it?

[SomeAsianKid]

The governments of the world laid a trap for Thor (hidden nuke on an island). A priest lured Thor there to talk on moral matters, and in the end the priest activated the bomb. (The priest felt like he had no other choice, that Thor was taking away humanity's freedom) The Thor storyline is sorta an alternative future, it's the mainstream future right now with Thor taking over the world, but I'm sure the Scarlet Witch's daughter will send Thialfi or even possibly Magni back into the past to stop Thor from taking over the world.

[proditor]

RE: Thor. I'm not going to be overly impressed that after having the character around for 40 odd years, they finally realized that someone might take offence to him calling himself a god...

 

Also...Hey Marvel, nice job of sidestepping the guys who are FAR more likely to come after him long before the catholics get involved. Falwell, Robertson, etc. etc. And yes, he is heroic. But please remember that we ridicule a lot of our zanier celebrities, and none of them claims that they are an actual diety. Look at Angelina Jolie. Yes, by her own admission she is "A little crazy". She also won an accolade from the UN for her ourseas work. Most people in the US could care less about that and just remember the wacky hot chick with the big lips who might have been doing bad things with her brother.

 

Now, remind me again how a populace that reactionary is gonna be fine with what they think is a guy with literal delusions of godhood?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Like the Nazi party officials carefully poring over birth and marriage records to determine who is a "Jew"? That's not a very good precedent.

I didn't say I approved of it, Treb...hence the "rolling of the eyes"...it's just that as long as 'mutant detectors' exist in the Marvel universe, the people who make and use those detectors will be the ones making the decision about who/what is/isn't a mutant.

 

For the record, I got sick of Marvel's attitude years ago. It used to be that overall I preferred DC, though every so often I'd get tired of DC's "we fail to show any significant social impact from there being superhumans walking among us" and go over to Marvel for a while, because it was more "realistic." I'd soon (very soon) be back over at DC, though, because Marvel's "realism" would soon begin to grate on my nerves (the feelings I got from reading a steady diet of Marvel was a lot like I used to get from playing Cyberpunk...it's dark, depressing, and not only can you never 'win', you can't break even -- and my life was [and is] depressing enough on its own; I don't need that from my 'entertainment').

 

My losing interest in DC started with Crisis (and how they completely screwed up a lot of great characters) but I lost what remaining interest I had when Zero Hour happened and they threw the tiny remaining bits of redeeming value out the window.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Chuckg

1) Isn't that whole Thor arc taking place in an alternate future?

 

2) Man, Marvel's got some *WEIRD*-ass writers. Speaking as a Catholic... sheesh, Marvel. Sense of proportion? Ever heard of it?

 

Ok... I have to just throw this in... all in fun... but damn, Chuck. A right wing Catholic?

 

You are just ASKING for abuse, dude!

 

And since it's my fantasy world, I get to tear into the right wing Republicans all I want. (Not that the far left is any better... they are just lame as villains. Col. Code Of Conduct just doesn't strike as much fear as War-Monger or The Corporate Man!)

[Allandrel]

Originally posted by proditor

I understand the idea that the Avengers and the FF get some slack, but honestly...where is the religious right? Not the politicos, the Avengers have worked for and with them. No need to shoot your own foot so to speak. I mean the Moral Majority, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell? This kook with the hammer claims he is a god. If according to them we're subject to earthquakes and floods due to our lax morals and acceptance of things like Homosexuality, shouldn't the fringe religious groups be trying to get Thor burned at the stake?

 

That's what the latest story arc in Wonder Woman was about, actually. She published a book of essays, and groups started protesting her for "corrupting America's youth."

 

Patrick J McGraw

[Chuckg]

> You are just ASKING for abuse, dude!

 

*flips RDU the Rigid Digit of Scorn*

 

> And since it's my fantasy world, I get to tear into the right

> wing Republicans all I want.

 

That's nice. My own philosophy is that only my positive editoral biases deserve any place in the game... my negative ones are not what my players came to see.

 

(i.e. -- I can like the things I like, but I won't unjustly rag on the things I hate.)

 

Edit -- unless it's something like Nazis. Or telemarketers. Everybody hates those. *g*

[rjcurrie]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Edit -- unless it's something like Nazis. Or telemarketers. Everybody hates those. *g*

 

And those Nazi telemarketers are the worst. I can't tell you how many calls I have gotten promising me a free gift if I come to a lecture on "Aryan supremacy".

 

Rod

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly

I didn't say I approved of it, Treb...hence the "rolling of the eyes"...it's just that as long as 'mutant detectors' exist in the Marvel universe, the people who make and use those detectors will be the ones making the decision about who/what is/isn't a mutant.

I certainly didn't mean to imply you approved of it; merely that "mutant detectors" vis-a-vis Marvel Comics have some very ugly precedents. One would have to assume that just as some people who were technically Jewish (by the Nazi definition) were able to hide their "flaw" by making judicious bribes to corrupt officials or altering records, certain mutants would simply not be classified as such for a number of reasons.

 

And I agree about the darkness of the Marvel universe; it's one of the main reasons I stopped reading comics back in the 1980s.

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by proditor

I understand the idea that the Avengers and the FF get some slack, but honestly...where is the religious right? Not the politicos, the Avengers have worked for and with them. No need to shoot your own foot so to speak. I mean the Moral Majority, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell? This kook with the hammer claims he is a god. If according to them we're subject to earthquakes and floods due to our lax morals and acceptance of things like Homosexuality, shouldn't the fringe religious groups be trying to get Thor burned at the stake?

 

There have been attempts to deal with this idea, particularly the character Crusader was introduced as a Christian response to Thor. But Marvel is very careful not the have villainous Christians in their comics, because they fear those very forces you are calling on for them to criticize (given history, I don't blame them). I am irritated by anti-mutant hysteria, but I am not going to criticize it for a lack of realism, it isn't meant to be realistic, it is meant to be allegorical. And the complaint that it is inconsistent for mutants to be treated this way in the X-books and no one to be treated this way out of them, ignores the fact that for the most par the X-books do not seem to exist in the same world as the other titles (just as in DareDevil there have been long periods where he and Bullseye are the only costumed characters). Anti-Mutant hysteria is used to tell a particular type of story, I don't necessarily like it, but it is a legitimate trope.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Lupus

<>

So, people love the Avengers and the FF because they're distant. They're in their mansion or skyscraper and they're 'saving the world,' whatever that means. They're Doing Something Good. Mutants are next door. They're all over the place, threatening to replace us as an entire species.

 

(And, of course, there's a nascent distrust of superheroes that even the Avengers have felt from time to time. It's only their world-saving antics that keep them safe.)

 

Yeah, mutophobia is played up too much in Marvel. It shouldn't be nearly so commonplace as it seems. But it's not entirely stupid. Just not rational.

Hatred and bigotry rarely are rational, I never said that they were. But if we are to suspend our disbelief, the conventions used need to make sense. With the exception of the Thing, ane one of the Fantastic Four are normal-looking enough to move in next door. Heck, almost all of the supers in the MU and DCU look perfectly normal (well, except for having perfect bodies and the women being top-heavy in the extreme) People hate Spider-man because J.J.J. has him made out to be a costumed menace, but no one seems to think he's a mutant. How can the general public tell the difference between an altered human and a mutant? They can't. And to me, that simply makes no sense.

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly

The people who have the "Mutant Detectors" are the ones who say what is and isn't a mutant.

I recall a story in which a Sentinel decided to turn his detector's sensitivity all the way up, and saw every entity with any potential for mutation. Surprise, surprise: every last "normal" human within range registered. Its ensuing actions show why prioritizing "kill mutants" ahead of "protect humans" is a bad idea.

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Klytus

Hatred and bigotry rarely are rational, I never said that they were. But if we are to suspend our disbelief, the conventions used need to make sense. With the exception of the Thing, ane one of the Fantastic Four are normal-looking enough to move in next door. Heck, almost all of the supers in the MU and DCU look perfectly normal (well, except for having perfect bodies and the women being top-heavy in the extreme) People hate Spider-man because J.J.J. has him made out to be a costumed menace, but no one seems to think he's a mutant. How can the general public tell the difference between an altered human and a mutant? They can't. And to me, that simply makes no sense.

The important factor is that although the FF can move in next door, as far as the public's aware, the don't. As the comic-reading public, we know better - Johnny has his apartment, etc. But as far as the general Marvel public knows, they're isolated up in their ivory tower, waiting for another World-Spanning Threat.

 

It's very different to a family moving in next door, one of whom may possibly have tentacle-fingers concealed under that glove. And they don't go out saving the world.

 

It's the difference between having people to look up to as higher beings, and people who you have to be afraid of meeting on the street. It doesn't matter that Johnny Storm could drop his flame, and meet people on the street and they wouldn't know who he was. Perception says that he's a SUPER HERO - he's the modern Greek God. Mutants, though - they're scum who, apart from not having a useful purpose like saving the world, are EVERYWHERE.

 

Mutophobia is overblown in Marvel. But I hold that it's still not entirely nonsensical, from the point of view that I could see something like that happening RL, although probably not to the extent that it appears in comics.

[KA.]

I'm sorry, but this whole idea, as Marvel presents it, is just cracked!

 

I am not saying that if there were suddenly Mutants, and only Mutants in the world, that some people would not be prejudiced toward them.

But in a world full of people, with all kinds of strange powers, some Mutant, and some not,

how the crap would the average Joe know who to hate?

 

But Marvel would have us believe that the following situation occurs:

 

Bubba is loading up his gun rack with 12 gauge shotguns.

Burford comes along: "Hey, Bubba, watchadoin'?"

Bubba: "I'm gonna go kill that Mutie that moved in a couple a' blocks down Willow St.!"

Burford: "You mean the guy that shoots flame out of his ears?"

Bubba: "Yup!"

Burford: "Well, Shucks, Bubba. He ain't no mutant.

He was involved in an ex-plosion at that there ree-serch la-bor-a-toree!"

Bubba: "Oh. Well that's okay then. Let's go see if he wants to come out to Hooters with us."

 

 

KA.

[SomeAsianKid]

There's been several issues in marvel in different lines of comics of people hating all supers, not just mutants. The thing about mutants is that your own child could be born as one of them. I mean, Bobo the clown fell in a vat of super chemicals and now has freakish powers. Society says, aw...poor Bobo, he suffered a horrible accident! Let's make a fruit basket for him! Mutants are just born that way though, they're one of them....(ok, not the best argument in the world but again, after having witnessed some retarded racism down here in the South I am under the impression that hatred just doesn't need logic)

[Badger]

Bubba and Buford? Dont be talking about my relatives.

 

 

But I do have to say it would make sense that if mutants started popping up people would be afraid. But why they dont have widespread fear and hatred of all supers always had me confused. But then again I never quite understood why people hated in RL others because of skin color. I remember hearing one time that everyone is about 99% identical genetically, what is the big deal about that 1% ?

 

Like you said hatred aint rational.

[KA.]

I think my problem with it is the obvious disconnect between parts of the "same" world.

 

In DC, there are differences between Gotham City and Metropolis, but those are different cities.

 

What Marvel does with the mutant issue is the equivalent of you taking a drive around the block, going down a sidestreet, and discovering a Beirut Class War Zone. Checkpoints, Machine Guns, people tossing Molotov cocktails, the whole bit.

When you ask one of the guards when this happened, they tell you:

"Oh, about 20 years ago. I guess you just never noticed it."

 

I mean standard Superheroes and Mutants do interact from time to time.

Don't you think by now that Captain America would have made a PSA about "Mutant Prejudice"?

Wouldn't the Fantastic Four (especially The Thing) have spoken out about attacking those who are "different"?

Wouldn't respected Heroes from other "minorities" have launched major protests about the treatment of Mutants?

 

(I don't claim to have bought anything from Marvel in the last several years, so some of this stuff could have happened without changing anything.)

 

It just seems like an overdone plot device used to inject a crapload of "angst" into certain titles.

 

I don't have any problem with comics tackling issues like prejudice, but Marvel seems to be taking the "MTV approach" by creating a view so slanted that you can't learn anything from it.

 

The equivalent would be if a program like Buffy The Vampire Slayer, had an episode where they went to the South, and there were herds of Klansmen, dressed in white, riding horses, rolling across the plains like a stampede of White Buffalo.

 

Not to say that there is no racism, (I was born in the South), but exaggerating it to that degree makes it impossible to identify with, or relate to.

 

KA.

[SomeAsianKid]

There was actually a big deal about the Avengers having mutants on the team. The public protested for awhile. Cap spoke out against them, but Justice, his sister (can't remember her name) and the Scarlet Witch just took leave from the team until it cooled down. And even though Scarlet's back on the team, most people just see her as a sorcerer (now how there's not any prejudice against an actual magic user I don't know).

[Vondy]

Personally, anti-mutant racism has become a marvel cliche and has grown tired as a theme over decade after decade of repetitive hammering on the same unevolving, unchangeing theme. I stopped relating to the invariant X theme when I stopped being an angsty teen-ager and started wanting meatier, more grown up story lines.

[Badger]

Good point. Once you past the teenage angst you do kind of realize how overblown they do it. I've never been a big comic book reader. But I definitely read more DC. It does make you wonder how The Thing is respected despite being a freak but several X-Men if they dont show their powers could pretty much walk around like a normal but they are treated like a medieval plague.

 

 

And dont get me started on that gutter trash of a station they call MTV. In any case do they even show music videos anymore.

[ChuckB]

Stopped reading X-Men back in the early 90's (liked Peter David's X-Force though) not because of the anti-mutant stuff , but because of the increasingly bad , single-name characters (Nimrod , Cable , Gambit , et al) who were introduced.

 

Characterization is big with me and all these guys just seemed the same.

 

As a gimmick , the anti-mutant/teen-angst stuff usually worked because it simultaneously appealed to the whole gen-x/disenfranchised/jaded youth subculture and the comics geek subculture.

 

Had Image (and later Chaos comics) not stolen the X-books young audience out from under them , the X-titles would still be top sellers (actually they may still be).

 

X-Statix (excellent book) is the only real X-book I read now but I've picked up the Morrisson trade paperbacks and like those too.