Fantastic Four, Champions-Style

[Metaphysician]

Me, I think they'd be a scary powerful superteam, around 750+ points each. Comes with being pretty much the most experienced heroes in the Marvel U.

 

Reed would have INT somewhere between 35 and 50. Every Science Skill that exists. A mix of multipower and EC covering his elasticity abilities. A 100 point technological power pool, though without the usual gadget limitations; he's good at quick tech improvisation.

 

Johnny and Sue are both built on the usual multipower/EC mix, albeit with very hefty point levels in the powers.

 

Ben would be around 80 Strength, around 35 Resistant Defense, and lots of fighting skill and brick tricks.

[Metaphysician]

Scary thought: Human Torch's Nova Flame. An off the bat attempt to stat it came up like this:

 

15d6 RKA, Explosion, Personal Immunity, No Range, End Cost x2, Extra Time ( Full Phase ). Active Points 300+, Real Points 158. Definitely gets put in his EC.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Fantastic Four, Champions-Style

 

Originally posted by Metaphysician

Me, I think they'd be a scary powerful superteam, around 750+ points each. Comes with being pretty much the most experienced heroes in the Marvel U.

 

Eh? They're as expensive, or cheap, as you want to make them. Personally, I tend to look at charcters in terms of how they compare relative to other characters in their setting, then build them to compare similarly in my setting.

 

Mr. Fantastic: Silly powers, smartest guy in the campaign setting - a couple of overall levels, INT is cheap, so are science skills (and really, you don't even need that many of them - give him the basic core sciences and let him take the minuses for the speciliaties).

 

Human Torch: Pretty standard flying energy projector (with an extra, very high-power, very high END use, blast).

 

Thing: Not quite the strongest character in the campaign setting, with slightly better combat (and non-combat) skills than the typical brick.

 

Invisible Woman: An EC full of "force field stuff" - and not much else.

 

I see no reason why they should be any more or less points than is typical for your campaign.

 

 

John D.

[Agent X]

Re: Re: Fantastic Four, Champions-Style

 

Originally posted by John Desmarais

I see no reason why they should be any more or less points than is typical for your campaign.

 

 

John D.

I do if you want to simulate what they can do in the comic books.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Re: Re: Fantastic Four, Champions-Style

 

Originally posted by Agent X

I do if you want to simulate what they can do in the comic books.

 

What characters can do in the comics tends to vary (sometimes wildly) from writer to writer. This is why I prefer to look at the niche they fill in their world rather than a specific feat that they were able to accomplish under a given writer (but not under a different one).

 

ymmv

 

John D.

 

[Metaphysician]

Pet peeve of mine: No, characters are *NOT* as strong or as weak as you need or want them to be. They are as strong or as weak as an accurate conversion of them would be. If you don't want them to be 750 points, then don't use them. Use somebody else. If you are going to convert characters, convert them accurately.

[Bengal]

Pet peeve addendum: If you want to portray comic book heroes in a 750-point setting, and they stat out to 600 points, play them anyway. Giving up a couple of weight classes won't hurt a true hero too badly. Besides, if your GM is fair, he'll find a way to give you fair fights as well as the next (750 point) character.

 

Even in my 350-point start campaign, I had a range from 165 points, the base form of a Multiform with some 295-325 point forms, to a 360-point energy projector (who forfeits the first 10 XP to cover the extra points the concept needed). The big hitters cover for the weaker members just like a 350-point team covers one another's weaknesses.

 

What irks me is, the most experienced heroes in the MU should be Ant-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, and the Hulk, followed by the Wasp, in order of seniority. Except for Iron Man, none of the others ever seems to "spend XP".

[Metaphysician]

Um, the Fantastic Four *predate* the Avengers. They, by definition, are more experienced than 2/3rds of the Avengers you mentioned.

 

And I can agree with your sentiment, somewhat; its just I don't see any accurate conversion being much under 750 points. Even the Thing combined high end ( by Champions standards ) brick abilities plus considerable combat skill.

[Crimson Arrow]

Don't forget that Reed almost certainly has a gadget pool. Of himself, he is nowhere near as talented at stretching tricks (well, not whenever I've seen him) as say Plastic Man or even the Elongated Man. His real superpower is his intellect.

 

Incidentally, there was one comic I saw which suggested that Reed's stretching powers enhance his intellect and that if he loses them, he isn't quite so clever (still much brighter than any of us). I thought that was odd, because Reed spots the flaw in Victor von Doom's calculations and that was before Reed was exposed to the cosmic rays. Writer's fiat on the intellect-enhancement, I suppose.

 

Ben's combat skill was always how I thought he could go toe-to-toe with the Hulk. It didn't work in the MSH game (well, not the first one), because, as written, the Thing could never hurt the Hulk without using some kind of super-hard weapon. In the HERO system, Ben could turn combat levels into damage or might even have a few martial arts moves.

 

I'm not sure the FF are 750 point characters, but it's quite possible. Definitely well over 350, though!

[Pattern Ghost]

I'd peg most of them around 500 or so, actually.

 

Reed: INT and Science skills, fairly cheap. Bemdy tricks, not too bad. Huge gadget pool, pretty spendy. Toss in all the Contacts, Vechicles and the Base, and you're hitting over the 500 most likely.

 

Sue: Pretty basic power set, albiet huge levels of raw power on the force fields. I'd probably do a MP and an EC for her forcefield and maybe a smaller MP for her invisibility tricks. She'd probably fall a little under the 500.

 

Ben: Doable on 500. His physical stats are going to be impressive. Buying up CON and BDY are definately in concept for him, which puts him beyond your average starting Champions brick. I'd peg him at least 40 CON (he's the last man standing vs. the Champion, and his END is among the highest in the MU.), and at least 20, if not more, BDY. He's got good defenses, but not as high as a lot of other Marvel bricks, it's just that he can take a punch and keep on going. Beyond that, you've got some combat levels (i'd just give him some eight pointers), a solid skill set with decent mental stats, and some martial arts.

 

Johnny: Probably doable on 500, since he's not huge on stats, or skills. He's got mainly powers to suck up points, like Sue does. (Of course, they all have extensive contacts, favors and other perks to consider, like Reed does.)

[Agent X]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Fantastic Four, Champions-Style

 

Originally posted by John Desmarais

What characters can do in the comics tends to vary (sometimes wildly) from writer to writer. This is why I prefer to look at the niche they fill in their world rather than a specific feat that they were able to accomplish under a given writer (but not under a different one).

 

ymmv

 

John D.

My mileage does vary. I come from the Old School where titles weren't restarted every 1-2 years. The FF were fairly consistently written for 25 years. It's not too hard to understand where their abilities have been represented to lie most of the time.

 

If you want to fit them at a different point level, that's your business but don't tell me that a conversion consistent with the character is impossible.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Crimson Arrow

Don't forget that Reed almost certainly has a gadget pool. Of himself, he is nowhere near as talented at stretching tricks (well, not whenever I've seen him) as say Plastic Man or even the Elongated Man. His real superpower is his intellect.

 

Incidentally, there was one comic I saw which suggested that Reed's stretching powers enhance his intellect and that if he loses them, he isn't quite so clever (still much brighter than any of us). I thought that was odd, because Reed spots the flaw in Victor von Doom's calculations and that was before Reed was exposed to the cosmic rays. Writer's fiat on the intellect-enhancement, I suppose.

 

Ben's combat skill was always how I thought he could go toe-to-toe with the Hulk. It didn't work in the MSH game (well, not the first one), because, as written, the Thing could never hurt the Hulk without using some kind of super-hard weapon. In the HERO system, Ben could turn combat levels into damage or might even have a few martial arts moves.

 

I'm not sure the FF are 750 point characters, but it's quite possible. Definitely well over 350, though!

Thing has about an 85 Strength, martial arts in boxing, grappling, and quite a few skill levels. He is as skilled a fighter as Wolverine! I never bought his durability being as low as they placed it in the MSH when compared to some of the other bricks. And he's got luck and plenty of it. He's also got gobs of presence and mental defense.

 

Mr. Fantastic can stretch a lot. His intelligence is way up there and he has a plot device gadget pool that is obscenely huge. He is also extremely durable.

 

The Human Torch is just plain scary.

 

Invisible Woman is extremely frightening in capability.

[Metaphysician]

The problem with trying to stat them for 500, well, look at Teleios. While Reed doesn't have as high of overall characteristics, or the martial arts, his tech pool, while arguably smaller than Teleios' ( about 100 points ) makes up for that in versatility ( basically, he can do any science trick or feat he wants ). Also, he's got an even more hideous skill list, *AND* fairly extensive EC and multipower for his elasticity. Remember, he is *not* unlearned in using his innate powers, he has many many tricks with it.

 

IOW, I cannot see Reed being any cheaper than Teleios.

 

Ben has already been described. Bricks are cheap. Highly Skilled Warrior Bricks with well-rounded skillsets are not cheap. Plus, he probably has brick trick powers ( at least the grand slam improvised melee weapon attack and giftwrapping ).

 

As for Sue and Johnny, they have simple constructs, just hideously powerful and expensive ones. See above for what Johnny's Nova Flame would look like. Sue's got a Force Wall slot of about equal power.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Bengal

---SNIP---

 

What irks me is, the most experienced heroes in the MU should be Ant-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, and the Hulk, followed by the Wasp, in order of seniority. Except for Iron Man, none of the others ever seems to "spend XP".

 

UMM I STRONGLY DISAGREE, they all seem to spend xp, usualy in small increments, Iron Man seems to go in for minor radiation accidents (Time for a new suit). But read Avengers 4, now read a current Avengers, the characters have become imensly more powerfull, they just havn't done it with radiation accidents

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

The problem with trying to stat them for 500, well, look at Teleios. While Reed doesn't have as high of overall characteristics, or the martial arts, his tech pool, while arguably smaller than Teleios' ( about 100 points ) makes up for that in versatility ( basically, he can do any science trick or feat he wants ). Also, he's got an even more hideous skill list, *AND* fairly extensive EC and multipower for his elasticity. Remember, he is *not* unlearned in using his innate powers, he has many many tricks with it.

 

IOW, I cannot see Reed being any cheaper than Teleios.

 

Ben has already been described. Bricks are cheap. Highly Skilled Warrior Bricks with well-rounded skillsets are not cheap. Plus, he probably has brick trick powers ( at least the grand slam improvised melee weapon attack and giftwrapping ).

 

As for Sue and Johnny, they have simple constructs, just hideously powerful and expensive ones. See above for what Johnny's Nova Flame would look like. Sue's got a Force Wall slot of about equal power.

And you haven't even paid for Reed Richard's base yet. That's going to be very expensive, along with the vehicles - and his contacts are many and mighty.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by JmOz

UMM I STRONGLY DISAGREE, they all seem to spend xp, usualy in small increments, Iron Man seems to go in for minor radiation accidents (Time for a new suit). But read Avengers 4, now read a current Avengers, the characters have become imensly more powerfull, they just havn't done it with radiation accidents

Definitely.

[Bengal]

Okay, Wasp just had a radiation accident in the new issue of Avengers, 78 or whatever, where she learned Ant-Man's growth trick. Other than that, she just seems to go in for new outfits over and over again.

 

While she's grown as a character, she hasn't grown as a PC very much.

 

 

As far as the FF predating the Avengers, that is true. But the characters who made up the original Avengers all predated the Fantastic Four, sometimes by years. Ant-Man was 1958 I think.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Bengal

Okay, Wasp just had a radiation accident in the new issue of Avengers, 78 or whatever, where she learned Ant-Man's growth trick. Other than that, she just seems to go in for new outfits over and over again.

 

While she's grown as a character, she hasn't grown as a PC very much.

Well, she bought off her Total Airhead Psych Limit and got some leadership/tactics skills, maybe some more PRE and combat skills. Not much to show for 40 years of adventures though.

As far as the FF predating the Avengers, that is true. But the characters who made up the original Avengers all predated the Fantastic Four, sometimes by years. Ant-Man was 1958 I think.

Nuh-uh. Only Captain America precedes the FF.

 

Fantastic Four - 1961

Ant-Man - 1962

Thor - 1962

Hulk - 1962

Wasp - 1963

Iron Man - 1963

[Guest Champsguy]

Actually, the Wasp is a perfect example of a character spending xp. She's gradually bought up her wasp sting so that it's somewhere in the 4D6 to 5D6 RKA range now. The wasp sting will blast through aircraft at this point.

 

In general, characters spend their xp on Hero Points. This statistic doesn't exist in Champions, but DC Heroes did a nice job with it. In brief, Hero Points are like Overall Skill Levels that, once spent, are gone. You need to make sure you defuse that bomb, but you only have Demolitions on an 11-? Well, better spend a few xp, and get a +10 to your Demolitions roll. You really need to hit this villain? Spend a few xp.

 

The Avengers and the FF get put in positions all the time when they need to save the world. So Captain America's player sighs, and he says "Okay, Gamemaster. I spend my 10 Experience Points that I've saved over the last few adventures, and I gain a +10 to hit and +10D6 damage on this next attack. It's time to put this guy down."

 

And that's why the Avengers don't seem to get much xp.

[Guest cubist]

Sue is much more skilled than I think many of you are giving her credit for- she has studied martial arts under Iron Fist, has learned leadership and oratory skills, is scary powerful and knows how to use her powers WELL. She has come a whole hella long way from just turning invisible as a power. Straight up, she is perhaps the most dangerous member of the FF, and not just because she is the most underrated.

 

There are lots of things that get forgotten, like Reed's hypnosis power(it has to be a power, since the Super Skrull has a version of it), Johnny's skills as a mechanic and race car driver, Ben's military training(not just piloting and boxing either- he was a top air force pilot), all sorts of things like that. Hell, between themselves the team has every known and some new TFs, many WFs and a list of skills that boggle the imagination.

[Metaphysician]

Not only that, but Wasp's sting is probably a multipower, with a couple different fire modes. She's also got the best leadership skills in the Avengers short of Cap.

 

Oh, and I've rethought Sue's main force wall; it would be better built on an ( albeit complex ) Force Field variant to fit the effect ( easy to maintain, very powerful protection, but lots of feedback ).

 

Edit: I've also been ignoring Bases and Vehicles. Otherwise, you'd be looking at about another couple hundred points each, and the "default" setting option seems to be "Base and Vehicle points gratis with DM approval." Likewise, I've been assuming relatively generous DM adjudication of Power Skill usage.

[Bengal]

Back to the original post thread, Sue is probably the most powerful in combat. She can trash several heavyweights singlehandedly when she's appropriately motivated, like when she threw down with the Absorbing Man, Titania, a mind-controled She-Hulk and Thing in order to protect Valeria. A number of other heroes were present, but Reed (wisely) told them to stay out of her way. The battle took a few seconds.

[Twilight]

Originally posted by Bengal

Back to the original post thread, Sue is probably the most powerful in combat. She can trash several heavyweights singlehandedly when she's appropriately motivated, like when she threw down with the Absorbing Man, Titania, a mind-controled She-Hulk and Thing in order to protect Valeria. A number of other heroes were present, but Reed (wisely) told them to stay out of her way. The battle took a few seconds.

 

And let us not forget one of my favourite scenes from Onslaught. Near the end Apocalypse plans to kill Franklin Richards because the boy might be a threat to him. The only thing standing in his way is Susan Storm Richards.

 

Apocalypse threatens Frankline, Sue threatens Apocalypses. There is a staredown and Poccy backs off quickly. One of the many reasons Sue is one of my favourite characters.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Twilight

And let us not forget one of my favourite scenes from Onslaught. Near the end Apocalypse plans to kill Franklin Richards because the boy might be a threat to him. The only thing standing in his way is Susan Storm Richards.

 

Apocalypse threatens Frankline, Sue threatens Apocalypses. There is a staredown and Poccy backs off quickly. One of the many reasons Sue is one of my favourite characters.

She is indeed very powerful.

[Benzini]

charater links

 

http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/teams/ff.html

this has some nice write ups