Guest innominatus Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 I read an article not long ago called "The Case for the Empire"; in it, the author asserts that in the Star Wars series of movies, Emperor Palpatine and the Imperials really weren't such bad guys. Sure it's a dictatorship, but a relatively benign one that doesn't have a lot of impact in the daily lives of the average citizen. And while people died and planets were destroyed, they weren't simply random acts of destruction, but a "fight for the survival of its regime against a violent group of rebels who are committed to its destruction". The rebels, on the other hand, demonstrate no governing stratgey or plans for a post-Imperial universe; and by destroying the one person uniting all the regional governors and organizing things (the Emperor), would "turn the galaxy into Somalia writ large: dominated by local warlords who are answerable to no one". He concludes by describing the rebels as "an unimpressive crew of anarchic royals who wreck the galaxy so that Princess Leia can have her tiara back". It got me to thinking about the portrayal of Doctor Destroyer in the Champions Universe, and set me to wondering: would it really be so bad if the good Doctor succeeded and he DID rule the world? There's no question that Albert Zerstoiten is one of the most brilliant scientific minds in the world, and his innovations have already benefitted his personal army greatly. The "Neutronic Sphere Induction Field" generator mentioned in the "Sancutary" section of "Classic Organizations" represents a clean, self-sustaining power source that could solve a lot of the world's energy and pollution problems. His developments in Dimensional Engineering (demonstrated in the sample powers list for his VPP) could eliminate all existing forms of transportation, further reducing environmental damage due to things like vehicular pollution, oil spills like the Exxon Valdez, and so on. And if he's mastered nanotechnology (as mentioned in the specs for his new armor), then nano-assemblers that could build nearly anything (complex electronics, foodstuffs, advanced medicines) out of nothing more than garbage and sunshine could turn Earth into a veritable Garden of Eden. As to fears of oppression under the hand of Destroyer....again, there's no sign of any of that happening within the organization he currently runs (that is, his personal army). You'll note that Destroyer's agents have the Psych. Lim. "Loyal to Destroyer", not "fearful of Dr. Destroyer" -- they believe wholeheartedly in Destroyer's plans. And they're not just a random collection of whackos, but an organized army twenty thousand strong -- and it's intimated that thousands more would jump on the bandwagon once Zerstoiten got his foot in the geo-political door. It's also mentioned in the writeups that Destroyer's metahuman operatives have been richly rewarded for their services, so there's every reason to believe that Destroyer's generosity for jobs well done would trickle down to the rank-and-file as well. And in his own words (as transcribed from an interview from the published adventure "Day of the Destroyer", his goal is to "elevate the world to (Destroyer's) level", not subjugate humanity. As far as whether Zerstoiten is actually "evil"....that's a little more open to debate. He's never once mentioned as being involved in any of the torture-masquerading-as-science conducted by Nazi scientists; and unlike a lot of current, past, and would-be dictators, Doctor Destroyer doesn't advocate genocide or slavery, or engage in random acts of terror. Yes, he has killed; but in each case the deaths have been calculated strikes to advance his ultimate goal of ruling the world. You could certainly argue that what Zerstoiten has done in the name of expediency runs roughshod over other people's rights to life and happiness. But consider the stakes: Destroyer is playing for the fate of the entire world! He's gotta live here, too; and he sees a bunch of stupid, self-indulgent fools running things into the ground while he (Destroyer) alone has the power to fix things! How many times in your *OWN* life have you had people you perceived as knowing far less than you hamstrung you in *YOUR* job, or your relationships, or your life in general? How often have you said to yourself, "Life would be so much simpler/I could be so much more productive/Things would be so much better if so-and-so would just GET OUT OF MY WAY and let me do what I need to!" One could argue against his methods, but there have been plenty of times where bloodshed and destruction were necessary evils that had to be endured in order to arrive at a greater good (the world wars that brought about a lasting peace in Europe, the Cold War paranoia that led to the fall of the Soviet Union and the chance for a better life for those formerly oppressed peoples, and so on.) There have also been a fair number of people who have slapped the label "insane" on Doctor Destroyer. But there, you run into a problem sort of like with Adrian Viedt in "Watchmen": when you're talking about (arguably) the smartest person in the world, who among us is *QUALIFIED* to judge whether or not he's insane? How do we know Doctor Destroyer *DOESN'T* have all the answers, and that we just are too narrow-minded or unimaginative to appreciate his insights? What if all these years, all these costumed heroes have been doing is *PREVENTING* Zerstoiten from saving the world? He doesn't seem at all delusional, save for his conviction that he is the strongest and smartest person on Earth and therefore it is his right to rule humanity; but like the man says, "If you can do it, it ain't braggin'." I'm curious to hear if others out there who have tried to look past the simplistic "he wears black and wears a crown he made for himself, therefore he must be E-E-E-E-E-EVIL!" approach to Doctor Destroyer, and considered him as a more complicated character in a complicated world. Maybe in a parallel world/possible future timeline, where he succeeds in his plans? I know Doctor Destroyer is supposedly to be a rotten-to-the-core baddie, the one guy in the Champions Universe you can point to and say, "This guy is irrefutably EVIL," but when you consider Destroyer from Destroyer's point of view, things don't seem nearly as clear-cut (at least, in my never-to-be-humble opinion)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 He basically nuked Detroit in order to take an extended vacation. Whatever he might have to offer, he's irredeemably evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just A Guy Name Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Aack! No apologists! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest innominatus Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher He basically nuked Detroit in order to take an extended vacation. Whatever he might have to offer, he's irredeemably evil. *WE* (I'm assuming most of the posters and lurkers here are American) nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki to force a surrender that the Japanese government had pretty much already agreed to. Does that make President Truman "irredeemably evil"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just A Guy Name Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Are you saying that Dr. Destroyer = President Truman? Isn't that a borderline NGD comment? Shouldn't we just shoot the whole topic down now, before it devolves into flame-baiting? Aren't you tired of all these rhetorical questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Yes, of course, using a pair of atomic bombs on Japan after they'd started a war of imperial comquest against the rest of the Pacific Rim countries, after they'd slaughtered Koreans and Chinese wholesale, used rural villages as laboratories for testing bioweapons, killed Allied POWs by the hundreds, and otherwise dragged the world into chaos was the moral equivalent to firing an orbital deathray at Detroit in order to cover the need for a vacation. Right. Actually, I think I agree with JAGN. Sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzy Gnome Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 The Case for Doctor Destroyer An unadorned pine box in Potters Field Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Uh, I think if Man rejected the benevolent dictatorship of God in Paradise, that rejecting Destroyer's non-benevolent dictatorship is essentially a no-brainer. "All we have to do is give up our free will, huh? No thanks!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Cross Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Personally,I wouldn't trust Destroyer as far as I could throw him.There's got to be a reason why Menton became one of his many enemies,after all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 There have been a few would-be benevolent world dictators in the past Champions Universe who have presented plans to improve the lot of mankind, like Lord Dire's (Champions of the North) forced redistribution of wealth and resources to underprivileged peoples, or Doc Digital's (Allies) dissemination of advanced bionics to all people suffering from crippling injury or disease. To my knowledge Dr. Destroyer has never expressed any goals relevant to the state of the world beyond his intention and perceived right to rule, and vague assurances that this would "elevate" the rest of humanity - a humanity for which he has repeatedly declared his contempt. No, wait, I stand corrected: in Day of the Destroyer he did (through a surrogate) proclaim his concern for how mankind's rampant overpopulation was leading to pollution of the environment and exhaustion of the world's natural resources. His solution? A device to simultaneously kill nine-tenths of all the people on Earth. I have some concerns about what other steps he might take if given the chance. As far as all the miracles that his ground-breaking technology could provide to end suffering and ease mankind's burdens on Champions Earth, keep in mind that when the level of ambient magic in the world starts to wane after 2020, many of those breakthroughs will cease to function. If the world has become dependent on them by then, things could end up a lot worse than they are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayday Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 He chose the name DESTROYER. Maybe he was reading too many Batman comics, but I doubt it. He is amoral possibly, Evil I dont know. Does he feel remorse? We aren't given that kind of information because he's the Villain and Champions doesnt want to be an angst comic-verse. I think he could be played both ways but its really tough to get around his carelessness with human life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Destroyer advocates slavery for paradise ( his version of paradise) dissent would not be tolerated what would you chose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayday Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Lord Liaden keep in mind that when the level of ambient magic in the world starts to wane after 2020, many of those breakthroughs will cease to function Wha...? Where is this from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 According to CU canon, all the superpowers and all the ubertech are all really just magic, and the level of magic in the world waxes and wanes. So, when the magic wanes towards the middle of the this century, the supers will all fade away, except maybe for the superbly trained normals. This was done, as far as I can tell, to shoehorn Star Hero, Fantasy Hero, Champions, and Galactic Champions into one world and one storyline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 thats never going to work. side note, during fantasy hero who was it that defeated takofanes, cos he can beat all super/supermages (apparently). or does FH have 2000pt "non-super" mages:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitoh_Hajime Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 It's an interesting idea - especially if you're a Watchmen fan. I've never considered the parallel between Dr Destroyer and Adrian Veidt/Ozymandias before, but it's certainly there. I mean, Ozymandias masterminds a scheme that kills half of New York city in order to save the world from itself - how is he different to Doctor Destroyer, seen from the perspective of what he's trying to achieve? I guess Veidt never intended to directly rule the world, only to guide it in the right direction, but still... I guess it really comes down to what kind of game you and your playing group are interested in having. If you want a standard four-colour game, then Destroyer plays the role of Dr Doom and is the big bad master villain who needs to be defeated for the sake of the world, and no more analysis is required. However, in a less black-and-white campaign along Watchmen lines, you could put the players in the position of uncovering a scheme of Dr Destroyer's and being in a position to prevent it, only to discover that the good it will do may outweigh the evil means Destroyer is using to achieve it. It would be a fantastic opportunity for players to role-play their characters personalities and psych lims - would there be one player who (Rorschach style) couldn't bend his principles no matter what? And another one with a more utilitarian ethic for whom the greatest good for the greatest number of people must prevail? How do these teammates and friends resolve the differences in their moral codes? Oh man, innominatus, my players are going to hate you... and me! To Kristopher: lighten up man! If you're not interested in exploring some of the moral grey areas of the genre, don't sweat it, stick to four colour. But let's face it, in the real world nothing is so black and white. Do you think it's any consolation to the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that the atomic bomb was dropped on them because they had the bad luck to be born into a country going through a phase of imperialist expansion? The exact kind of expansion that made Britain and other european countries so rich and powerful? Why was it wrong for Japan to do what the British, Belgians, French, etc had all done in the last century or two? Or were the actions of those European powers as evil as the Japanese in WWII? Without British colonialism and the forcible subjugation of native peoples, neither of our countries would exist (I'm Australian, I presume you're American). What about the Afghani and Iraqi civilians who have died recently in American wars through no fault of their own? The US were ostensibly trying to achieve a higher moral goal and improve the world in both cases, and to do it they were and are willing to sacrifice innocent lives. How is that different from Dr Destroyer? Just remember there are a lot of people in the world from whose perspective the United States is "irredeemably evil". I'm not trying to attack the US, I'm just saying that it can be an interesting exercise, especially in a role-playing game, to explore our preconceived ideas of morality, good and evil, etc. There's no need to take the suggestion that some things America as a country has done in the past might be morally questionable as a personal affront to you as an American, dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmenace Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I would advise against trusting in the benevolence of an ex-nazi who'd like to conquer the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by innominatus *WE* (I'm assuming most of the posters and lurkers here are American) nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki to force a surrender that the Japanese government had pretty much already agreed to. Does that make President Truman "irredeemably evil"? Oh, by the way, as a side note, the part about the Japanese being ready to surrender before the bombs were ever dropped is a load of revisionist garbage. Intercepted transmitions between the Japanese government and its diplomatic staff in Switzerland plainly indicate that they still believed they could negotiate a peace that left them in control of Korea and with their military and government intact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest innominatus Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I'm not trying to be deliberately provocative or "flame-bait" as JAGN puts it. My point was simply this: history is replete with incidents where thousands (or even millions) died, and looked at as an isolated incident, one would say, "That was a horrible thing that never should have happened, no if's, and's, or but's about it!" But when we look at the bigger picture we can see that if Awful Incident X never happened, then Historical Outcome Y would never have occurred, which so many more people benefitted from than suffered from X." It's also important to note that, cliche though it may be, history is written by the winners; who knows if after the first couple of centuries A.D. (After Destroyer), historians would look back and say, "The Battle of Detroit was an awful thing, yes; but if mankind had not endured these regrettable 'growing pains' and Destroyer had not finally been victorious, we would not have enjoyed the last 100 years of unity and prosperity under his guidance and leadership!" And as far as Megaplayboy's remark about humans rejecting Paradise....well, first of all, *I* was never offered that choice, and frankly resent that one person was allowed to make that choice for the rest of us! But seriously, what if God (or some other entity who saw himself as elevated beyond the rest of humanity) wasn't content to let us *make* our choice? What if he said, "I've gotta live here, too; so we're going to do things MY way! It's for your own good -- you'll thank me someday!" And what if it turned out that humanity was happier WITHOUT free will? THESE are the concepts I was wondering if other people had used Doctor Destroyer to explore in their campaigns.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest innominatus Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Oh, and to Mayday: Zerstoiten didn't exactly CHOOSE the name "Doctor Destroyer" for himself; if memory serves, it was a nickname he picked it up during his days as a designer and dealer in arms in the 50's and 60's. Although I sometimes wonder if his ideas might be better received if he created a new identity apart from Doctor Destroyer and started espousing them. And to Lord Liaden: it was actually the ERSATZ Doctor Destroyer who was going to summarily kill 90% of humanity. The REAL Doctor Destroyer suggested several alternate solutions, including keeping the rest of humanity in stasis until they were needed (or presumably until technology reached a level where they could provide for the needs of all those people without causing the depletion of resources we now suffer.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 innominatus please report for lobotomy, dont wory you will be "happier" after, and well even tell you what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest innominatus Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Vorsch innominatus please report for lobotomy, dont wory you will be "happier" after, and well even tell you what to do. NOW who's flame-baiting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I dont believe destroyer is "evil", but he does not have the betterment of mankind at heart, he has no noble cause, unlike Magneto. He has the morals of the worst kind of politician, but unlike them has a armour suit which allows him to pander to his evey whim, ie nothing short of a nuke can take him down. There would be no compromise in his world, he would order this and that and be unable to control the economic/social repercussions of his actions. he would just print more money to solve things (been tried doesnt work). the world would fall to ruin due to procesess 30d6EB have no effect on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Cross Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Personally,just because we can't understand Doctor Destroyer's actions doesn't mean that we can't deplore them. And just because someone is superintelligent doesn't mean that they're not insane.Veight's plan was basically a ripoff of the Outer Limit's The Architects Of Fear.This is the plan of a supergenius? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by innominatus And to Lord Liaden: it was actually the ERSATZ Doctor Destroyer who was going to summarily kill 90% of humanity. The REAL Doctor Destroyer suggested several alternate solutions, including keeping the rest of humanity in stasis until they were needed (or presumably until technology reached a level where they could provide for the needs of all those people without causing the depletion of resources we now suffer.) If you're referring to Dr. Destroyer's interview with reporter Bob Richards at the start of Day of the Destroyer, the precise options Destroyer proposed were for nine-tenths of the planet's population to be "either placed in suspended animation to serve as manpower for future generations, or in a genetic bank in case some global emergency reduced the human population to dangerously low levels, or destroyed if they have no genetic value." I think it's highly debatable whether any of those options imply the semi-benevolent intentions that you seem to ascribe to him. Even though the ersatz Doctor D executed the plan, it was the real Destroyer who devised it and built the equipment, and who seemed to be quite willing to allow it to go through as a diversion of the heroes from his other plans. And there was no hint in DotD that Zerstoiten would have lifted a finger to prevent the slaughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.