Balance

[SaintHax]

First, let me preface this w/ how much I love the Hero system. I'm a Champions player, but would like to get a Fantasy Hero game going. My post, however, will be about what I don't like, as I'd like to give constructive feedback. I'll try to split up my posts so that they'll be easier to follow the responses.

 

I don't think these following advantages balance well at all. I think that it's time Hero thought about have more static adders, such as Leaping's +5 to Base cost for accurate, instead of a multipler like +1/4.

 

I find 60 points a good place for comparison, you can always adjust my examples to whatever value you feel is valid.

 

AOE 1 hex Accurate +1/2 -- basically, this advantage is to represent a VERY accurate attack. I use it for a "seeking" advantage-- a ranged attack that if it get's close enough, will seekout it's target. +1/2 is WAY over priced. You can get a better effect by buying 2pt CSL w/ the power.

 

Example:

8d6 EB AoE 1 hex Accurate = 60 AP

DCV is always 3 plus range mods

10d6 EB w/ 5 levels 2pt CSL's = 50 ap + 10 real

Avg. DCV for supers is 7-9. You hit about the same, do 2 DC's more damage, and it cost 1 END less. If you are play a NCM campaign, then you'll hit easier w/ this version.

 

Armor Piercing, bought multiple times +1/2 each time.

This makes it only valid for characters not restricted by points, such as NPC's. I feel that Armor Piercing should have a reduced cost of +1/4 for purchases after the initial one at +1/2. There's no reason why a +1 advantage is needed to counter a +1/4!!!

 

Hardened +1/4, Speaking of Hardened-- this is a bargain! For +1/4 it can counter AP, Penatrating, and Indirect!! Although one level doesn't stop multiple advantages (i.e. AP and Penatrating), it will stop anyone of the 3: You don't have to decide a head of time. Also, why is Indirect even listed? I understand it's for characters that can attack through walls, but it's very poorly defined. If my character has an indirect attack that comes from the sky, and his target has a hardened force wall around him (no roof!!), it sure as blazes better not stop my attack! Also, I've found penatrating a non-killing attack a gyp b/c it's stopped by Hardened (I've never seen anyone _keep_ pentrating on a normal attack). I'd prefer it have a defined "stopper" like an NND attack does. Just my opinion of course.

 

Does Knockback +1/4 -- Ouch!! What a waste. Since your attack that doesn't do knockabck will be a 10/dice attack or more anyway, you are hurting w/ this one. If you are using a 60-ish point attack, you'll roll 5 dice, for an average of 5 - 2d6 worth of knockback. Very little KB if any. What's worse, if you want your MB, NND, or whatever to have a normal KB effect, you'll need to purchase the double KB advantage for +3/4. The problem w/ the KB advantage, is that it is directly dependent on the amount of dice you roll; however, it's cost is so high that it decreases your dice proportionally. I feel Does Knockback should be an adder, not a multiplier.

 

No Range Modifier +1/2 Maybe a bigger waste than AoE 1 hex accurate! It is doubtful that you'll ever need to use a ranged attack farther than 32" (-6) For a 60 point power, you can have 8d6, No Range Mod, uses 6 END... Or... you can get a 8d6 EB that uses 4 END, and 6 PSL's vs. Range penalty for ALL attacks (18 pts). Or a 10d6 EB, 5 END, and 6 PSL's vs. Rng Pnlty for that one attack. Either is a much better buy. At higher levels, the +1/2 screws you even more. Again, I think this should be an Adder instead of a multiplier, or a +1/4 advantage.

 

 

 

Many thanks for listening,

[Monolith]

Re: Balance

 

Originally posted by SaintHax

AOE 1 hex Accurate +1/2 -- basically, this advantage is to represent a VERY accurate attack. I use it for a "seeking" advantage-- a ranged attack that if it get's close enough, will seekout it's target. +1/2 is WAY over priced. You can get a better effect by buying 2pt CSL w/ the power.

I agree. Buying levels is more advantageous here.

 

Armor Piercing, bought multiple times +1/2 each time.

This makes it only valid for characters not restricted by points, such as NPC's. I feel that Armor Piercing should have a reduced cost of +1/4 for purchases after the initial one at +1/2. There's no reason why a +1 advantage is needed to counter a +1/4!!!

This does not bother me because I figure that anyone who has purchased multiple levels of AP is really trying to munchkin out a character more than go for a valid design. In 16 years I have never had a player buy AP at 2 levels.

 

Hardened +1/4, Speaking of Hardened-- this is a bargain! For +1/4 it can counter AP, Penatrating, and Indirect!! Although one level doesn't stop multiple advantages (i.e. AP and Penatrating), it will stop anyone of the 3: You don't have to decide a head of time. Also, why is Indirect even listed? I understand it's for characters that can attack through walls, but it's very poorly defined. If my character has an indirect attack that comes from the sky, and his target has a hardened force wall around him (no roof!!), it sure as blazes better not stop my attack!

As with all things, the SFX of an attack needs to be taken into account. But just to clearify, if you have a Lightning Bolt shooting from the sky, it will be stopped by the character's FF or FW or Armor whether it is bought as Hardened or not. Hardened stoppes Indirect attacks from originating behind the Hardened surface. So you cannot have your Indirect EB attack someone behind a Hardened FW like you can if the FW is not Hardened. Your Lightning Bolt would not have that Advantage anyway.

 

Does Knockback +1/4 -- Ouch!! What a waste. Since your attack that doesn't do knockabck will be a 10/dice attack or more anyway, you are hurting w/ this one. If you are using a 60-ish point attack, you'll roll 5 dice, for

10d6 Hearing Flash, Does Knockback: +1/4. 37 Active Points. That is why the Does Knockback is not a waste.

 

No Range Modifier +1/2 Maybe a bigger waste than AoE 1 hex accurate! It is doubtful that you'll ever need to use a ranged attack farther than 32" (-6) For a 60 point power, you can have 8d6, No Range Mod, uses 6 END... Or... you can get a 8d6 EB that uses 4 END, and 6 PSL's vs. Range penalty for ALL attacks (18 pts). Or a 10d6 EB, 5 END, and 6 PSL's vs. Rng Pnlty for that one attack. Either is a much better buy. At higher levels, the +1/2 screws you even more. Again, I think this should be an Adder instead of a multiplier, or a +1/4 advantage.

This Advantage is more useful for missiles and other weapons that will always be shooting at extreme range. Most characters never shoot past 32". Most battleships never shoot closer than 880" (1 mile); and many shoot for several miles beyond that. If you have a -30 for Range on a SAM it is easier to buy the +1/2 Advantage than it is to but +30 PSL, IMO.

[Monolith]

Re: Balance

 

Originally posted by SaintHax

AOE 1 hex Accurate +1/2 -- basically, this advantage is to represent a VERY accurate attack. I use it for a "seeking" advantage-- a ranged attack that if it get's close enough, will seekout it's target. +1/2 is WAY over priced. You can get a better effect by buying 2pt CSL w/ the power.

I want to amend part of my simple answer to this point. There is a very big difference between having a power which can do something and having a skill to do something. Combat Skill Levels represent extraordinary achievement with a particular attack. If the character is so skilled he never, or seldom, misses (Bullseye) then I think the character should have skill levels. On the other hand, if it is the power itself which seldom misses, then Accurate should be the correct way to purchase it. Here is an example:

 

Joe Thug found a Zoom-Blaster and decides to go after Spider-man. For this description Joe Thug has a 4 OCV and Spider-man has a 12 DCV. Joe Thug is -8 to hit Spider-man. Now if the Zoom-Blaster is an Accurate weapon, Joe Thug hits on a 12- instead of a 3-. This effect is achieved by either giving Joe Thug +9 Combat Skill Levels with the Zoom-Blaster (he just found it, he should have no great skill with it) or by buying the weapon with Accurate (makes much more sense).

 

Now you could say those +9 Levels are part of the Zoom-Blaster, but then they would cost 22 points (9*5=45 45/2(OAF) =22). So if the Zoom-Blaster is 45 Active Points or less it is just as cheap to buy the Accurate.

 

I think the SFX of the character needs to be taken into consideration here. The few points difference are pretty much irrelevant.

[caris]

Re: Balance

 

Originally posted by SaintHax

Armor Piercing, bought multiple times +1/2 each time.

This makes it only valid for characters not restricted by points, such as NPC's. I feel that Armor Piercing should have a reduced cost of +1/4 for purchases after the initial one at +1/2. There's no reason why a +1 advantage is needed to counter a +1/4!!!

 

To an extent I agree with you here, but even more to the point I tell my players not to buy more than two levels of Hardened, AP, or Penetrating anyways, because If I'm going to give an NPC those extra levels than it is specifically to counter the levels that particular PC has.

[Edsel]

Does Knockback +1/4 -- Ouch!! What a waste. Since your attack that doesn't do knockabck will be a 10/dice attack or more anyway, you are hurting w/ this one. If you are using a 60-ish point attack, you'll roll 5 dice, for

 

Ah. But one of my supermages spells is a windjet spell: 18d6 Dispel vs. Knockback Resistance, Does KB (+1/4). It only costs 67 Active Points (we play a 70 AP max), and almost any foe is gonna be sent flying by this.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by Edsel

Ah. But one of my supermages spells is a windjet spell: 18d6 Dispel vs. Knockback Resistance, Does KB (+1/4). It only costs 67 Active Points (we play a 70 AP max), and almost any foe is gonna be sent flying by this.

 

And for 66 active points, you could have a 11d6 Dispel vs Knockback Resistance , Does KB (+1/4) Double KB (+3/4)

[Edsel]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

And for 66 active points, you could have a 11d6 Dispel vs Knockback Resistance , Does KB (+1/4) Double KB (+3/4)

Yes, but a roll of 18 dice, on the average, produces 18 BODY - 2d6 (7 on average) = 11" KB.

 

11d6 (11) - 2d6 (7) = 4" x2 = 8" KB.

 

Thus, the first option usually is better. I used to think this was pretty cheezy but since an average EB in our game does between 12 and 14d6 its not really unbalanced.

 

To sum it up, and stay on topic, Does Knockback (+1/4) is not IMHO a over-valued power advantage. However I might agree that Double Knockback for (+3/4) could be a little pricy for the return.

[archermoo]

Re: Balance

 

Originally posted by SaintHax

No Range Modifier +1/2 Maybe a bigger waste than AoE 1 hex accurate! It is doubtful that you'll ever need to use a ranged attack farther than 32" (-6) For a 60 point power, you can have 8d6, No Range Mod, uses 6 END... Or... you can get a 8d6 EB that uses 4 END, and 6 PSL's vs. Range penalty for ALL attacks (18 pts). Or a 10d6 EB, 5 END, and 6 PSL's vs. Rng Pnlty for that one attack. Either is a much better buy. At higher levels, the +1/2 screws you even more. Again, I think this should be an Adder instead of a multiplier, or a +1/4 advantage.

 

I've had characters that have gotten a great deal of use out of having NRM on attacks. One of many examples was a fight our team had on an oil drilling platform in the middle of the ocean. My character was a battlesuit character and one of his attacks was NRM and Autofile (10 shot). One of the villains tried to get away by zipping out at some gawdawful NCM rate. The Ref had obviously forgotten about my NRM attack as he blandly announced that she (a supergirl type) was about 400" away, knowing that none of us could catch her. I asked if she'd flown straight away from the rig (and so had no lateral movement for velocity DCV) and got the expected "Of course". So I calmly shot her at her 0 DCV, and hit with all 10 shots. Then I felt bad about it, since unbeknownst to me she didn't have most of her defenses up because they were in a MP with her "get outta dodge" extra flight. She still didn't take any body from the shots, but the impact with the water at supersonic speeds on the other hand...she ended up in a coma for several weeks.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by Edsel

Yes, but a roll of 18 dice, on the average, produces 18 BODY - 2d6 (7 on average) = 11" KB.

 

11d6 (11) - 2d6 (7) = 4" x2 = 8" KB.

 

Thus, the first option usually is better. I used to think this was pretty cheezy but since an average EB in our game does between 12 and 14d6 its not really unbalanced.

 

To sum it up, and stay on topic, Does Knockback (+1/4) is not IMHO a over-valued power advantage. However I might agree that Double Knockback for (+3/4) could be a little pricy for the return.

 

Hey Edsel - You're calculating double knockback wrong.

 

The Body for Double Knockback is doubled BEFORE the Knockback roll, not after. FrED 165.

 

The 11d6 double KB averages 22 -7 = 15" knockback which is better than 11, assuming that your target doesn't have an incredible amount of Power Def + KB Resistance.

[SaintHax]

I'm more convinced than ever that the KB advantages are broken. To balance out a 3pt "Does KB" Dispell and a 12.5pt "Does KB" EB AvLD, I feel that the "Does KB" advantage should add a number a inches equal to the Active Points of a power divided by 5. This will give a power a normal level of Knockback, which seems to be what this advantage is about. It will prevent the hosing of AvLD w/ KB, and also stop cheesy 3pt per Dice Blast.

 

As far as the AoE 1 hex accurate, and NRM goes-- these powers have an effective ceiling. Sure, once in a hundred games there may be a target 400 inches away, but it hardly justifies the cost. And I agree that having a power w/ this advantage is different than having the skill levels, but it shouldn't be different point wise, just in feel. Here in lies my problem. Taking the skill levels for my EB to hit almost everytime is SO much more benificial to me. However, it just doesn't feel right. It doesn't justify the sfx of the beam altering its course to hit it's target. Regardless, a +1/2 is a rip off: Same w/ NRM. I'd gladly pay +10 to base cost, which seems more fair.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by SaintHax

Sure, once in a hundred games there may be a target 400 inches away, but it hardly justifies the cost.

In a Champions game, you are correct. In a Star Hero game 400" would be considered close for many starship combats. The rules must be able to reflect all the genres they are designed for. To each his own though. I just tend to disagree with you.

[Edsel]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

Hey Edsel - You're calculating double knockback wrong.

 

The Body for Double Knockback is doubled BEFORE the Knockback roll, not after. FrED 165.

 

The 11d6 double KB averages 22 -7 = 15" knockback which is better than 11, assuming that your target doesn't have an incredible amount of Power Def + KB Resistance.

Oh. I'll have to research that when I get home from work. Its the way our group has been doing it for years. Everybody gets so used to doing it one way nobody ever bothers to checkup on it. Thanks for the catch.

[tesuji]

Ok, stepping another level back, when you question adders vs multipliers, you have to ask does the multiplier work at all?

 

For example... Ralphus has 12d6 EB for 60 points and Rufus has 12d6 EB full phase for 40 points. The defined system of balance says that half-phase vs full phase for this 12d6 electric blast is worth 20 points.

 

But, if ralphus has a 12d6 electrib blaster rifle and rufus has a 12d6 electric blaster rilfe with full phase, the system says the difference is inly 6 points.

 

6 points for the diffeerence between full and half phase for the 12d6 rifles but 20 points for the same difference, full vs half phase, between the 12d6 blasts-from-fingertips?

 

(heck, for a lark, consider whether the following is true... full phase for a 4d6 HKA is a 20 point savings as well... but is the difference between full phase RKA and a normal half phase RKA actually as severe as the difference between the same type of HKAs? For example, how many shots are going to be lost to the RKA due to having to move to setup the shot as opposed to how many lost HKA shots due to having to move to get in range? )

 

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As for things like does kb and double KB the example given is precisely on point.

 

DOES KB and DOUBLE KB are valued well for things like heaing flash and dispel trick powers. They do not however value out right for more normal uses, like you would expect to see novices designing. Damage shield is another such example. Area effect is wonderful for NNDs and drains but sux for producing good results for normal attacks... the fireball is a waste while the area drain necromantic endurance sapping gas is a good buy.

 

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In short, the problem is not just a stray value here or an adder vs multiplier there, but a more systemic failing.

 

In some cases, like say autofire, HERo starts the beginning of making the static advantage costs adjust for the specific power combos and thus tries to make things

[Yamo]

In a Champions game, you are correct. In a Star Hero game 400" would be considered close for many starship combats. The rules must be able to reflect all the genres they are designed for. To each his own though. I just tend to disagree with you.

 

Kudos for cutting right to that chase, Monolith! IMHO, it really takes the wind right out of this whole "problem." Not all of us Herophiles play superheroes. It's a brave new fully-generic world out there.

[Tom McCarthy]

Truth to tell, No Range Modifier is something I typically see reserved for 'massive advantage' attacks. One side completely outclasses the other, and one way it is expressed is through NRM.

 

Consider 4th ed Dr. Destroyer with his 5D6 RKA with No Range Modifier and a range in the 10's of kilometres (many thousands of inches).

 

In the same vein, a rocket with NRM would be a seriously powerful MacGuffin for a heroic espionage mission.

 

And lastly, NRM precedes megascale in the rules, so before 5th edition, it was virtually de rigeur for long range vehicle combat.

[SaintHax]

Originally posted by Yamo

Kudos for cutting right to that chase, Monolith! IMHO, it really takes the wind right out of this whole "problem." Not all of us Herophiles play superheroes. It's a brave new fully-generic world out there.

 

I disagree. It is not fully-generic acceptable. It doesn't work for at least one genre. You can't say the rule is valid b/c it works for 2 genre's but not another. Besides, wouldn't a ship's weapon not suffer from range modifiers b/c of computer calculations, not b/c the weapon is super accurate? As a star ship goes, it's firing a target so big it will have a negative DCV, therefore it really doesn't need NRM either. I'd think that a computer w/ PSL's vs. Range modifier requiring a skill roll would more accurately represent the kind of combat you are referencing. Not only that, but since it's a multiplier, the amount it will cost on a ship size weapon will still be more than what it would cost using the computer example.

 

If not, then maybe the advantage NRM should have been put out in the Genre books, not the core ones. Plus, you always have the LOS advantage for the same cost that gives you increased range as a bonus-- though there are some negatives. This would certainly simulate a starship's laser.

 

Also, how does it work for Fantasy Hero?? If you want a magic missle spell, you'd need the AoE 1hex accurate, plus NRM for a big +1 advantage. That gives you an attack that "never" (not truely) misses, but at half the amount of damage. You may not even hurt your target. This is another genre where your max range will be about 32 to 40"; so it's a big joke.

[Yamo]

I disagree. It is not fully-generic acceptable. It doesn't work for at least one genre. You can't say the rule is valid b/c it works for 2 genre's but not another.

 

Yes, I can. Do you understand the concept of a "toolkit system?" Not every rule is appropriate for every genre or individual campaign. That's rather the whole point.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by SaintHax

I disagree. It is not fully-generic acceptable. It doesn't work for at least one genre. You can't say the rule is valid b/c it works for 2 genre's but not another.

I think you have difficulty separating HERO System 5th Edition from Champions. FREd is a toolkit which lists the rules for every genre. The Genre books' job is to define how to use those rules. Genre books do not add new powers, they add new ways of using exisiting powers.

 

Now NCM could have been added to Star HERO, but as I pointed out in my above example, in most Combat Skill Levels define someone's learned combat prowess. This is why they are skills and now powers. You can use them as powers, but when you do that the cost rises. So ultimately the cost difference is close to a wash in most cases.

 

If you do not feel you need to use the Advantage, then don't. I certainly have no desire to "argue" with you about it. House Rules are what make the HERO System go round.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by SaintHax

 

Also, how does it work for Fantasy Hero?? If you want a magic missle spell, you'd need the AoE 1hex accurate, plus NRM for a big +1 advantage. That gives you an attack that "never" (not truely) misses, but at half the amount of damage. You may not even hurt your target. This is another genre where your max range will be about 32 to 40"; so it's a big joke.

 

Uh, are you talking about the D&D Magic Missile spell? If I remember correctly, the magician's skill had nothing to do with how well it hit, it was the spell that was accurate. And they're Magic Missiles they don't do staggering amounts of damage. That's what Delayed Blast Fireballs, Disintegration, Meteor Swarm, Harm, Creeping Doom, Call Lightning, Bigby's Crushing Hand, and Prismatic Spray are for. I don't see where you get your joke reference from.

[MarkusDark]

As far as AOE Hex being invalid in a Fantasy setting...

 

Do you include cover modifications? Crossbowmen behind a low stone wall can basically double their DCV this way. And someone in an arrow slit or murder hole is all but protected. AOE Hex takes away this defence.

 

As for Supers, sure average DCV is 7-9 but what about those unaverage ones that have the DCV of 11+? I suppose you could spread the attack. And don't forget those pesky Martial Artists that can suddenly add 5 to their DCV with an abort to Martial Dodge.

 

Also, if there are multiple targets in one hex (let us say 4 evil pixies are all flittin' over a special power enhancing stone in one hex) the AOE will nail them all. Granted, this is a VERY rare occurance but if your enemy is packed in tightly enough, it could still be useful.

 

As with the other advantages that are 'overpriced', I am sure that there are other examples where they are VERY effective over the typical "target standing there with average DCV and normal defences in the open".

 

 

[TheEmerged]

RE: Dispel Does Knockback. Actually, I had never thought of this (and boy, were my players disappointed that THEY hadn't either). However, I find that my old "HA" rule is an adequate fix: figure the cost increase for damage-affecting advantages as though the Dispel had a base cost of 5 instead of 3. You can make the case that Dispel is Suppress with the "All or Nothing" limitation, after all.

 

By "damage-affecting" I mean anything that is dependent on the dice result (like KB), increases the dice result (like Autofire), or how the dice result is defended against (like Armor Piercing).

 

I do something similar to this for END Reserve as well: for the purpose of any adjustment powers or any advantages on the reserve, figure the active cost as though the END had the same 1/2 pt cost as "normal" and RED had the "normal" 2 pt cost.

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Having allowed my Game Mechanic time, it's time for my inner Game Master to chime in.

 

Dispel/Does KB is one of those things that, while you *can* do them in the rules, probably shouldn't be allowed without sufficient justification -- the infamous Darn Good Reason.

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

And for 66 active points, you could have a 11d6 Dispel vs Knockback Resistance , Does KB (+1/4) Double KB (+3/4)

 

Now we just have to figure out how to get the target into the air so you only roll one die for KB:D

[BNakagawa]

For a truly abusive experience, try buying extra PRE that does KB. for extra cheese, try double KB.

 

It's automatically area effect and never misses.

 

Obviously, no sane GM would ever let this slide.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

For a truly abusive experience, try buying extra PRE that does KB. for extra cheese, try double KB.

 

It's automatically area effect and never misses.

 

Obviously, no sane GM would ever let this slide.

 

FREd, sidebar on page 166. "Impressive As All Get Out".

 

Insert joke about Steve's sanity here

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

FREd, sidebar on page 166. "Impressive As All Get Out".

 

Insert joke about Steve's sanity here

 

Sanity is such an over-rated thing, after all the only people who can prove that they are sane are the ones that they let leave the asylum