[HOWTO] "luck trading"

[altamaros]

Hello Hero-dom

 

One of my players wants to play a probability manipulator (complicated for a relative newscomer - 4 scenarios played by now with a X-Men's Bishop clone - but why not)

 

The specificity of his character is this : He can/must trade his luck with the destiny : i.e. he can/must take risk or accept unluck to get his right to luck.

 

As an example; he must gamble and lose money to "evacuate" unluck and thus gain luck or take risks by driving drunk just to get an accident (unluck) and then gain luck this way (he didn't joke; apparently the player took his inspiration from some comic i don't know and the hero does this.)

 

He insists on the fact that it should not be a side effect since the hero can simply use his luck without boosting it this way.

He just boosts it this way.

 

I was thinking about an aid vs luck with side effects but i wonder about the validity of such a concept.

 

 

Your opinion, Herodom ?

[Vex]

D&D has a prestige class called the Fatespinner that subtracts points from his DC (his "to save against" modifier) from spells and then can later use this pool of points to get better saves, make his DC higher, curse other people, etc....

 

Maybe we can figure out some way to do that which Hero Systems.....Let me think....shhhh.....this could take a while.....

[Darkness]

I'd build his "luck trading" as Aid Luck with Charges that Recover Only Under Limited Circumstances (as suggested in Fantasy HERO, p.130).

 

That is, the Charges don't refresh daily but instead only when the character fulfills the conditions.

Depending on whether he usually regains Charges more quickly or more slowly than Charges are usually regained, this decreases or increases the worth of the Limitation: Charges.

 

His normal, unboosted luck is simply Luck, of course.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I don't think you need to worry about Aid. If he has some dice of Luck that always work without his having to "boost" them, and then additional dice that only work if he's done something Unlucky to gain them, then just buy some dice of Luck normally, and additional dice of Luck with the Side Effect. This sounds like a textbook example of a Partially-Limited Power.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Darkness

I'd build his "luck trading" as Aid Luck with Charges that Recover Only Under Limited Circumstances (as suggested in Fantasy HERO, p.130).

Or just extra dice of Luck, rather than Aid to Luck. You could also just use the Recoverable option on the Charges straight out of H5E, without bringing anything in from FH. Just define his means of recovering the Charge(s) as being "does something unlucky."

[Vex]

I thought about this over lunch and I think we are either being too picky on the rules or we are not even covering the topic. If the luck and unluck are random, then I would go with 5-10 levels of luck and the same or less in Unluck (for some unknown reason I am thinking 10 levels of luck and 5 levels of unluck). The other option would be to build a luck multipower with different "luck" effects (plus DCV, Penalty Skill Levels, Indirect EB repping falling pots and pianos, etc) built with the recoverable charges.

 

BTW, I like the first option because it makes luck "lucky", i.e. out of the character's control, not overpowering and random. It just seems wrong to get drunk and drive so you can have an accident. It isn't an accident if you set up the situation and are hoping for a particular outcome. Anyone can throw a game of cards, so how is that unlucky? If I close my eyes run into traffic is it unlucky if I get hit? No, it would be unlucky if I tried to throw a game of cards and kept hitting blackjack.....it would be unlucky if I was trying to kill myself and all the cars kept missing me.....it would be luck if I crossed a clear one-way street and got hit by a car going the other way.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Vex

I thought about this over lunch and I think we are either being too picky on the rules or we are not even covering the topic. If the luck and unluck are random, then I would go with 5-10 levels of luck and the same or less in Unluck (for some unknown reason I am thinking 10 levels of luck and 5 levels of unluck). The other option would be to build a luck multipower with different "luck" effects (plus DCV, Penalty Skill Levels, Indirect EB repping falling pots and pianos, etc) built with the recoverable charges.

 

BTW, I like the first option because it makes luck "lucky", i.e. out of the character's control, not overpowering and random. It just seems wrong to get drunk and drive so you can have an accident. It isn't an accident if you set up the situation and are hoping for a particular outcome. Anyone can throw a game of cards, so how is that unlucky? If I close my eyes run into traffic is it unlucky if I get hit? No, it would be unlucky if I tried to throw a game of cards and kept hitting blackjack.....it would be unlucky if I was trying to kill myself and all the cars kept missing me.....it would be luck if I crossed a clear one-way street and got hit by a car going the other way.

 

Reading your original post, this is what I was thinking. If it's all random anyway, equal amounts of Luck and Unluck seem perfect. Or, since you really shouldn't have more than 5 dice of Unluck, maybe a few extra dice of Luck (more heroic if the lucky more often than he's unlucky anyway).

[altamaros]

Originally posted by Vex

If the luck and unluck are random, then I would go with 5-10 levels of luck and the same or less in Unluck (for some unknown reason I am thinking 10 levels of luck and 5 levels of unluck). The other option would be to build a luck multipower with different "luck" effects (plus DCV, Penalty Skill Levels, Indirect EB repping falling pots and pianos, etc) built with the recoverable charges.

The player has a VPP, some nasty ideas, Hero Designer and the USPDB. he sent me his first work today. this character will be pretty funny to come with (built on 230 points in a 300 point game but completly unpredictable, highest primary char at 13).

 

Originally posted by Vex

BTW, I like the first option because it makes luck "lucky", i.e. out of the character's control, not overpowering and random. It just seems wrong to get drunk and drive so you can have an accident. It isn't an accident if you set up the situation and are hoping for a particular outcome. Anyone can throw a game of cards, so how is that unlucky? If I close my eyes run into traffic is it unlucky if I get hit? No, it would be unlucky if I tried to throw a game of cards and kept hitting blackjack.....it would be unlucky if I was trying to kill myself and all the cars kept missing me.....it would be luck if I crossed a clear one-way street and got hit by a car going the other way.

Yep, I first come to him with the idea X dices of luck and X dices of unluck. The problem is precisely that he wants to keep a limited control over his abilities and not get caught off-hand in a bad moment.

 

I think Derek's idea is the simplest : some regular dices of luck and extra dices with a lim.

[Namergon]

Hi all,

 

let me introduce myself: I'm the headache-inducing player that Altamaros told you about.

 

I just wanted to add my own description of the "effect" at the origin of this thread.

 

In the comic in which I took inspiration, a character with "RS effects" capabilities (RS = Retro-synchronicity, see my signature), buy lottery tickets to a girl in the street of Prague. It is explained that she's not really buying tickets, but luck, more accurately the girl's luck (who is stroke by sudden death few seconds later). Then this character with her team starts a chase to catch the hero. Both sides play with the traffic lights (green forever ! ), then hero, realizing that his pursuers are also "gifted", decides to "rise the stake", by taking a way "counter-sense" (sp?), arguing that this will induce too many problems for the gifted pursuer to deal with to be able to keep tracking him. Finally, sseing that his tactic wasn't enough, he accelerate right in front a truck, staking guts against guts, then explains that it's "a fifty-fifty chance duel: first to give up loses, but at least odds are fair, and no one cheats". Indeed, the truck's driver tries to avoid the hero's car, thus obstruing the road, keeping the pursuers to catch him up.

 

Another sample: a woman, seemingly very knowledgable in the "RS theory", burns some calabera (the dead candles), explaining that they would need a bunch of luck soon, so everything is good to take. Superstition seems to work like

a combustible that fuels or consume the agent powers.

 

Oh, I saw that Altamaros only told you about a part of the features of this character : the VPP is representing the catalyzer of my character's power, a strange tarot deck...

[devlin1]

Well... alright.

 

As someone who loves both complex and elegant solutions to these kinds of things, I have an odd idea that isn't quite fully-formed. Basically, it works like this:

 

Luck that Costs END, and an END Reserve that feeds it. The END Reserve only recovers through absorbing or stealing Luck, or by making an Unluck roll, so the Luck is tangibly, quantifiably limited to how much Luck is stolen (e.g., from flower-selling girls in Prague), or how much Unluck is experienced. How is this represented? Hell if I know. Transfer Luck to END Reserve? REC with RSR: Unluck?

 

Anyway, it's an intriguing idea.

[Darkness]

Originally posted by devlin1

The END Reserve only recovers through absorbing or stealing Luck, or by making an Unluck roll, so the Luck is tangibly, quantifiably limited to how much Luck is stolen (e.g., from flower-selling girls in Prague), or how much Unluck is experienced. How is this represented? Hell if I know. Transfer Luck to END Reserve? REC with RSR: Unluck?

Well, not sure how to construct the others, but I think Transfer wouldn't help much in any case. As far as I know you can't Transfer what's not there so Transfer only helps take Luck from characters who have Luck (i.e., levels in the power). But most people probably don't have Luck levels.

 

Your idea is interesting but I still think Luck with Charges would be easier to build (see Derek's and my post for an idea).

[devlin1]

Originally posted by Darkness

Well, not sure how to construct the others, but I think Transfer wouldn't help much in any case. As far as I know you can't Transfer what's not there so Transfer only helps take Luck from characters who have Luck (i.e., levels in the power). But most people probably don't have Luck levels.

Yeah, I had that thought too. Now, if you had a real Luck-based game-- there was a movie last year that revolved around acquiring luck-- it'd be pretty powerful, but in a default game it's nigh useless.

 

Transform: Human into Unlucky Human, using the END Reserve? And Transform: Human into Lucky Human, with a linked Aid to the END Reserve?

 

But yes, Derek's way is, as usual, probably better.

[zornwil]

One comment re "He insists on the fact that it should not be a side effect since the hero can simply use his luck without boosting it this way. He just boosts it this way."

 

Just a brief addition here as I think people have covered some great suggestions already; please note that a construct such as this may well be modeled with Side Effects despite that. Why? Pure in-character enforcement. Frequently if a story/character is build such that there's some easier way but it's never taken, the actual SFX TRULY are that in fact the easier way simply isn't available. Please remember that you should "reason by effect". Just because something isn't "actually" a Side Effect doesn't mean that it doesn't function AS IF it were a Side Effect.

 

However, I totally understand if you really want the flexibility. And in my mind, personally, if the character really and truly "can but doesn't" and if you are going to play him so that SOMETIMES HE DOES, then I strongly suggest a Psych Disad that indicates "must do it (x) way". Then keep his EGO so that normally it's at least a challenge to overcome the Psych Disad, and force him to make an EGO roll to overcome the temptation to do it the easy way.

[badger3k]

I may be having some trouble understanding the construct (well, the idea behind it). If his power gives someone else unluck by stealing their luck, can it be used as a power? Perhaps a Linked power - Unluck, Usable on others (I know technically not allowed, but it can be), with an equal Aid or Levels of Luck (only vs amount unluck given?). - the Unlucky Break power form the USPD is an example of transfrom being used to give unluck.

 

Otherwise, or maybe in addition, I'd go along with the other option of luck limited with the "only when he does something unlucky (or risky?)".

[AnotherSkip]

Transform power (normal human into unlucky human) with linked powers Luck. In this case you would only roll the luck dice _when_ you have used the transform power. Perhaps the simpler solution would be Luck, RSR: Retro-synchronicity, Side effects (transforms target into unlucky person), .

 

 

In some ways though, this sounds like a White Wolf: Mage, the Ascension character......