Block vs Dodge: Statistics

[Killer Shrike]

On reflection Block has almost never had a major impact in Supers games where Dodge, D4C and Flying Dodge see more action IME.

 

Im not a fan of normal Block, but Martial Block is another story. I've seen too many fights determined by a successful martial block to discount it. I think it has a far greater impact in lower point level games where there isnt as much spread in character abilities, particularly in NCM games.

 

But ultimately if you dont want to use Block, then just dont use Block, or replace Block w/ Martial Block for 0 points. Its a specifically noted GM's discretion call in either UMA or Ninja HERO to add Martial Manuevers selectively to the default Manuever's list for no points if they wish.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Kdansky

That's mean

Nah, seriously, I can code such things much faster than I'd write an excel sheet that does it. Might have to do something with studying computer sience

 

Spread sheet?

 

When I say "by hand" I mean just that. Pencil, paper and a Casio SL=300v pocket calculator. Actually, I didn't have the calculator when I did the actual chart (I was at work and didn't have one), but I checked the math when I got home.

 

I've realized another bonus to using block over dodge:

Damage Shields. According the the strict rules, a character with a Damage Shield will apply damage to an opponent he just blocked (if bought with the extra +1/4). Just can't do that with a dodge. (This is how I've written up a few counterstrikes actually.)

[Bengal]

Originally posted by Kolava

since when has Hero been about squeezing every last drop of power from the rules?

 

 

 

Haha... bwa hahaha...

 

hahahah! hahahahahaha! haha! heh... oh my goodness. LOL. heh.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

I've realized another bonus to using block over dodge:

Damage Shields. According the the strict rules, a character with a Damage Shield will apply damage to an opponent he just blocked (if bought with the extra +1/4). Just can't do that with a dodge. (This is how I've written up a few counterstrikes actually.)

One of my players (WilyQuixote from these boards) played a Jedi character in a past campaign complete w/ damage shield light saber, and used this tactic constantly.

 

As one of those amusing "The Dice Gods Are Telling You Something" episodes whenever the character would attack the player would roll terribly, but whenever he just defended he'd kill anything that attacked him. Very Jedi appropriate I always thought.

[Gary]

Don't forget multiple attacker bonuses. Someone dodging is going to have half those DCV bonuses vanishing, and their base DCV is going to be crap. A blocker's OCV isn't affected in any way by multiple attackers, except for the -2 per additional attempt.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Kdansky

When exactly do you have a high OCV but a low DCV? Switch your combat levels and dodge, it's just better. Buying dozens of 2cp levels and blocking is real munchkinizing (because 2 cp levels are too cheap per se).

 

So, you change the rules because they are "munchkinizing" and then complain when the result is too weak?

 

All right, you win.

[Gary]

Re: Block vs Dodge: Statistics

 

Originally posted by Kdansky

I made a small tool to calculate some statistics on the question: "Should I rather block or dodge?"

 

Download Tool

 

Retaliation: This is just the chance that the defender would hit the attacker, so you're not missing something

 

As far as it looks dodging is (still) much better than blocking, especially if your foe has low OCV and/or you have high DCV. I did a 1d20 Attack Roll too (as we are using that to counter the "everyone has 7 ocv/dcv and hits everyone on 11-" because having less is catastrophic and having more is not permitted).

 

There might be a delphi runtime needed, tell me if you're missing some files...

 

Simple first conclusion: Blocking sincerely sucks. Usually dodging is better and in some rare cases it does not matter which you do (assuming there is only 1 attacker, if there are many, blocking is even worse).

 

I don't think the block numbers are correct for your program. Your program is producing a 25% chance of a hit when dodging with OCV/DCV 7 attackers and defenders. This is accurate (actually 25.9%). However, your program is producing 39% of a successful hit when blocking. That is clearly wrong.

 

The chance of the attack hitting is the chance of a miss plus the chance of a successful block after the attacker makes his attack roll. Both the attacker and defender have 11- attack rolls.

 

The chance of an attacker miss is 37.5%.

 

The chance of a successful block is .625*.625 = .39

 

The chance of the attacker not hitting is thus .375+.39=.766, and the chance of hitting is thus 23.4%.

 

Block is actually better than dodge when the attacker and defender both have equal OCV/DCV.

[pinecone]

I don't wish to get all mathy...so In my opinion...both are useful..I often buy 3 point levels with Punch,Grab and Block so those characters Definatly prefer to block...differant folks, differant strokes......

[Victim]

Block also works better if you like to unload Sweep or Rapid Fire attacks into your enemies. The 1/2 DCV cuts the impact of dodge, while the attack penalty for the manuevers wouldn't affect blocking. Then if the block succeeds, you can sweep them again.

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Bengal

Haha... bwa hahaha...

 

hahahah! hahahahahaha! haha! heh... oh my goodness. LOL. heh.

 

Yeah that was my response too. On page 12 of Champions II, published way back in like 1982, the first appearence of The Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness appeared which basically made min/maxing officially sanctioned.

 

REMEMBER: Goodman Says: "3 and 8 are very cost effective numbers."

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Yeah that was my response too. On page 12 of Champions II, published way back in like 1982, the first appearence of The Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness appeared which basically made min/maxing officially sanctioned.

 

REMEMBER: Goodman Says: "3 and 8 are very cost effective numbers."

 

Of course min/maxing is sactioned! It's a point based game; goes with the territory. Munchkinizing is an entirely different subject, however.

[Mike W]

Actually, a character with 21 Dex and 4 levels has almost an identical chance to not be hit by a 9 OCV attack whether he blocks or dodges because of the diminishing returns principle.

 

A 9 OCV vs 14 DCV hits only 9.26% of the time.

 

An 11 OCV hits a 9 OCV 83.80% BUT, if he misses the 9 OCV character still must roll to hit and will about 1/6 of the time. So normal dodge is successful 90.74% of the time and normal block about 86.42% of the time. Given the additional things that block can do and the fact that it is not subject to DCV penalties from multiple attacker bonuses - at least not on the OCV block roll itself...the two are at least even. And martial Block will generally come out ahead of martial dodge.

[Demonsong]

Re: Block vs Dodge: Statistics

 

In my current Fantasy Hero Campaign I have some Demon-Born Snakemen that use large shields. And I am here to tell you the that +3 is huge. Just ask my players Any way once shields are involved its changes things a lot I think.

 

And watch out for the Large Shield and Martial Block combo. The best of both worlds. I can totally see it being effective even in high powered campaigns.

 

With out shields, dodging is probably your best bet.

 

Demonsong