Block vs Dodge: Statistics

[Kdansky]

I made a small tool to calculate some statistics on the question: "Should I rather block or dodge?"

 

Download Tool

 

Retaliation: This is just the chance that the defender would hit the attacker, so you're not missing something

 

As far as it looks dodging is (still) much better than blocking, especially if your foe has low OCV and/or you have high DCV. I did a 1d20 Attack Roll too (as we are using that to counter the "everyone has 7 ocv/dcv and hits everyone on 11-" because having less is catastrophic and having more is not permitted).

 

There might be a delphi runtime needed, tell me if you're missing some files...

 

Simple first conclusion: Blocking sincerely sucks. Usually dodging is better and in some rare cases it does not matter which you do (assuming there is only 1 attacker, if there are many, blocking is even worse).

[Supreme]

Ah, but the thing about blocking is that it guarantees that you will attack first on your next phase, regardless of Dex.

[Kdansky]

That's rarely woth getting hit for and it only matters IF your next phase is the same your enemy acts too AND your dex is lower AND hth only. Else you'd rather dodge...

[Legendsmiths]

Blocking is useful if you have a shield.

[Arthur]

I started playing Champions in 1984. Give or take a year. Haven't played lately, but I have logged hundreds of hours of play - possibly thousands.

 

I never chose Block once.

 

Dodge was a common choice for me. Make it a Martial Dodge, and it was even more useful.

[BNakagawa]

Blocking is really handy if you're standing next to a soft target and the GM lets you block attacks aimed at them.

 

Dodging, not so much. (in this scenario)

[GamePhil]

Sure, if you only compare straight CV's Dodge must win because it gives a bonus and Block gives none. This much is obvious. However, I have gotten significant tactical advantage out of Blocks because of that item you discount, being able to go first on the next phase. And since you can get 2 point levels with Block, but not with Dodge (they only apply to OCV), buying it up is cheaper.

[Bengal]

If you are looking to maximize your character's effectiveness in combat, Dodge wins- Flying Dodge even better. But Block is the choice I make more often since it fits the flavor of many of my heroes and villains better. Thematically, it's the difference between shrugging off your opponent's attack, and running away like a little girl.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Bengal

Thematically, it's the difference between shrugging off your opponent's attack, and running away like a little girl.

 

That reminds me of some old suppliment that upgraded the Champions. Obsidion was givin a martial art style that included a Martial Block defined as just standing there and taking it.

[Mike W]

Martial Block has, potentially, 4 advantages over dodge:

 

1. You can block for someone else. This is really useful for protecting bystanders and wounded/fallen allies.

 

2. There is a decent chance you'll get initiative on the person the next round. Generally, this works out in hand to hand fights.

 

The other two have been overlooked so far.

 

3. Block gives you TWO chances to avoid getting hit - your block roll and your opponents attack roll - and with Martial Block you get a +2 bonus to each. This is a major advantage.

 

4. Martial block bonuses may, at GM option, be applied to missile deflect rolls.

 

Martial Block is VERY useful if you know how to use it - particularly given the fact that anything over about a +3 bonus tends to be redundant in a fight between people of similar CVs.(Once you get to 14- you're getting very little additional benefit. Percentage wise, the best benefits come in the middle.) Even regular block has several advantages over dodge. You just have to know when to use it.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Mike W

4. Martial block bonuses may, at GM option, be applied to missile deflect rolls.

 

Well, I don't allow that, but I do allow a Block/Missile Deflection Multiple Power Defense. Technically, this is not legal.

[Kdansky]

Block gives you TWO chances to avoid getting hit - your block roll and your opponents attack roll.

 

Yes, but I'm calculating that too and blocking still sucks. As you really rarely roll a very low number (eg 6-) on 3d6, this rarely matters. That's the reason blocking is slightly more efficient on 1d20, because once in a while you just roll a 1 or 2 while blocking and your opponent would have needed a 1 or 2 too to hit then. Blocking is better if both parties have exactly the same OCV AND the defender has the same DCV. That's a really rare case and the player usually doesn't know the values of the NPCs.

 

Blocking is really handy if you're standing next to a soft target and the GM lets you block attacks aimed at them.

 

Agreed, this is the only advantage I see (although that too is a rare case in non-super campaigns.)

 

 

If you are looking to maximize your character's effectiveness in combat, Dodge wins- Flying Dodge even better. But Block is the choice I make more often since it fits the flavor of many of my heroes and villains better. Thematically, it's the difference between shrugging off your opponent's attack, and running away like a little girl.

 

I'd use "Martial Dodge: Special effect: PC blocks the attack". I hate the "I'm better/worse because my SFX says so".

 

I found a little (though not really great) solution though: What if one could NOT reallocate his CLs while aborting? That way if you do an all out attack (all CLs to OCV) you should rather block next because you're still on high OCV. True, it does not make block better and it's a "the player who knows the statistics better wins" but at least blocking would have some use against dodge.

[sbarron]

Statistics, huh? When I block, I control my own destiny (since I roll the dice). How many percentage ponts is that worth?

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Kdansky

I found a little (though not really great) solution though: What if one could NOT reallocate his CLs while aborting?

I used to do something like this. Actually, my rule was that you could only allocate levels once per phase as a 0 phase action. So if you haven't reallocated points for a phase or two, you could while aborting, but otherwise no.

 

I like the Block mechanic, but agree that Dodge is statistically superior. There are ways around this, such as using 2 point levels with Block to increase it's effectiveness (or even better, add the Block maneuver to a 3 point group).

[Vondy]

Blocking is also the better choice when you have the higher OCV, but the lower DEX. It does happen, but my games a skill level intensive.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Kdansky

That's rarely woth getting hit for and it only matters IF your next phase is the same your enemy acts too AND your dex is lower AND hth only. Else you'd rather dodge...

Actually, when playing martial artists, I prefer to attack, and devote my levels to DCV. It's the traditional Shaolin student in me.

[Tech]

Kdansky, you obviously feel that a Block manuever is a waste and that the Dodge manuever is incredibly more worthwhile. Go for it, it's that's how you view this manuever. Everyone while playing tends to view combat a certain way and reacts accordingly.

 

However, being able to protect innocent civilians or teammates cannot be underestimated. Dodging may give a +3 to your DCV but with a Block, you can block multiple attacks at yourself. I have characters each with several levels and can shift those levels into DCV as I please or OCV for a Block. That +3 to DCV isn't such an incentive to those characters. Also, the character can look cool blocking multiple attacks and get to attack them first, especially with a Sweep manuever.

 

When you Dodge, the GM has the final word whether you're hit or not. When you Block, you get the final word. In general, dodging requires the ability to move around the battlefield, if only a little; blocking does not.

 

Blocking is more heroic-looking than always dodging, IMO. It protects yourself and potentially others. This is particularly true is a Killing Attack goes for your teammate and they don't have resistance defenses. It grants you the ability to go first. You have the final word in whether the attack hits or not. Hm, these seem pretty good reasons to me to use the Block manuever.

[Kdansky]

Blocking is also the better choice when you have the higher OCV

 

When exactly do you have a high OCV but a low DCV? Switch your combat levels and dodge, it's just better. Buying dozens of 2cp levels and blocking is real munchkinizing (because 2 cp levels are too cheap per se).

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Kdansky

When exactly do you have a high OCV but a low DCV? Switch your combat levels and dodge, it's just better. Buying dozens of 2cp levels and blocking is real munchkinizing (because 2 cp levels are too cheap per se).

 

You are making a number of assumptions about my game with no facts to base them on in conjuction with a left-handed ad hominem attack in order to avoid addressing the point that was made.

 

Its not always "just better."

[Tech]

Originally posted by Kdansky

When exactly do you have a high OCV but a low DCV? Switch your combat levels and dodge, it's just better. Buying dozens of 2cp levels and blocking is real munchkinizing (because 2 cp levels are too cheap per se).

 

Hm, I seem to recall saying the characters had several levels they could switch around, whether to OCV or DCV. These are 8 pt Combat Levels and 10 pt Overall levels. I don't recall saying anything about buying dozens of levels or munchkinizing. Chill; don't read stuff in my text I didn't say.

 

A Dex of 21 giving a CV of 7 with 4 levels can be OCV 7 DCV 11, OCV 11 DCV 7 or any combination thereof. I could dodge and throw all levels into DCV and be DCV 14 or I could Block and be OCV 11. With a 4 CV jump from 7 to 11, that sure makes Blocking a lot easier. It also makes protecting innocents or teammates easier, not to mention heroic in the process.

[Guest Kolava]

When I first learned about blocking, I was thrilled. It was a concept I had always wanted to see implemented in an RPG, and finally here it was. The thrill of halting the Dark Knight's blade with your own is very cool, and a few theoretical decimals tossed around aren't going to persuade me otherwise; besides, since when has Hero been about squeezing every last drop of power from the rules? Can't we leave that sort of behavior to the less flexible systems?

[Kdansky]

A Dex of 21 giving a CV of 7 with 4 levels can be OCV 7 DCV 11, OCV 11 DCV 7 or any combination thereof. I could dodge and throw all levels into DCV and be DCV 14 or I could Block and be OCV 11. With a 4 CV jump from 7 to 11, that sure makes Blocking a lot easier.

 

As you say, you could dodge and go to DCV 14 or Block with OCV 11. That's the purpose I made that small calculator. It clearly shows that DCV 14 is superior to Block with ODC 11 and have DCV 7. Even if you have the choice to power up your OCV to block it's not worth it. That's exactly what disappoints me. You don't get what you pay for.

 

It also makes protecting innocents or teammates easier, not to mention heroic in the process

The protecting of innocents may be important for a typical supers group but if you're not the "Hero" but rather someone with his own (and perhaps not THAT nice) targets you rarely need it. We're playing Hero for 3 years or so now (with different GMs, different players and different characters), but we did not have 1 case of trying to intercept an attack I'd remember

[Dust Raven]

No spiffy tool, but I checked the math by hand and my nifty probability chart I made for 3d6 rolls.

 

Regardless of the attacker's OCV with his attack, you always has a significently greater chance of avoiding the attack if dodging when compaired to block. This is assuming you have no levels, or levels that can apply both to your OCV with a block or you DCV with a dodge. If your levels only apply to block (or apply to block and not dodge), this might be different.

 

That said, there are several times you might like to use block instead of dodge. Most of these have to do with the feel of the game, but occasionally with the mechanics. After the first turn of combat, anyone who's been playing Hero for a while and has been paying attention will know what the SPD of their opponent is, and know if their next phases are together. There's also those occasional counterstrike maneuvers a character can only employ after a sucessful block.

 

In any case, the statistical advantage dodge has over block is rarely more than 10%. Having lots of levels that apply to both block and dodge might increase this, but not by much.

[Kdansky]

I'd like to see something on the lines of:

 

If you block successfully, you automatically do a free counterattack (say 50% dmg and at -2 OCV or something like that). It would make blocking really interesting and different from dodging.

 

and for the record:

Dodging may give a +3 to your DCV but with a Block, you can block multiple attacks at yourself.

The +3 Dodge bonus will carry over even if 178 thugs attack you, but if you block, you'll be at a cumulative -2 everytime.

 

No spiffy tool, but I checked the math by hand and my nifty probability chart I made for 3d6 rolls.

That's mean

Nah, seriously, I can code such things much faster than I'd write an excel sheet that does it. Might have to do something with studying computer sience

[austenandrews]

In my fantasy game it's not uncommon for a high-damage character and high-CV character to work together. The high-CV guy is strictly a defender, blocking for himself and the high-damage guy. The high-damage guy then pounds away at the bad guys with much greater freedom. It's not ideal for every fight, but it's quite handy against a lesser number of tough opponents.

 

Oddly enough, entire systems of actual warfare developed along those same lines -- spearmen attacking from behind shield walls.

 

-AA