Help: Sniper Syndrome

[JLXC]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

Well since I've been thinking there is a Villian who would really annoy the player, maybe enough to make a difference. "Back Up Man" the villian who does not directly engage in combat, but uses his Ranged Missile Reflection to good effect. I dunno, making a villian just to counter the guy is weak, but the look on the players face would be priceless.

 

"Your long ranged attack is reflected into your fellow PC's, stunning one of them, the villians then pounce on him while one of them gives you the Thumbs Up sign"

 

[KA.]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

If you think the problem is lack of confidence and lack of understanding of the superhero genre' date=' for God's sake [i']don't[/i] punish the player. Don't make up villains designed specifically to screw with his character, don't keep putting him in situations where his tactics are useless, don't single him out for less experience than everyone else if you're not specifically rewarding the other players for something they did.

 

Those are just going to make things worse.

 

If it's a lack of confidence, you need to set up situations where he can take on opponents without needing to snipe them. Probably ones he does not feel threatened by -- like thugs. If he doesn't take the bait, add in something like a hostage or DNPC needing rescue to motivate him.

 

Once he's confident in close combat, you can start hitting him with some attacks that do some damage but don't take him out of the fight. Something spectacular with lots of knockback would be a good choice, since the knockback always makes the attack look impressive even if it doesn't do much damage.

 

Once he's used to success in close quarters combat, you can whallop him with a big bruiser attack, so he can learn that sniping is sometimes good tactics.

 

 

Lightray,

I agree completely. My player was also afraid of "dying" every time he took damage or was stunned. Designing villains to target hiw weaknesses would just have made him more paranoid. (I am not saying that I never do that now, but it is not a good cure for paranoia.) Helping the player to realize that every combat is not going to kill his character is a good way to help them get into the genre.

 

Trebuchet and Dragon,

Thanks for the praise on my previous post.

 

KA.

[Javed]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

nuke him frim orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

 

 

More seriously... our group mentalist does this kind of thing - sits in the coffee shop on the other side of town and uses Mind Link with powers usable through the mind link on the enemy. No danger to him. yeesh. Let me know if any of the suggested tactics work at all so I can give them to our GM to get our own Sniper Type into the fray.

 

I liked one of the first suggestions about adding a better counter-sniper.. give them full invisibility and an Inivisible Power Effects Naked Modifier for firearms .. then have the uber-sniper hunt him down.

 

Specific to your problem, how about a counter sniper who goes against Mind Guy's rep? Invisible and invisible power effects. Area effect ego attak. Mind Guy is probably well defended enough to not feel the attack. However, when he blasts off, so does the sniper, and everyone in the coffee shop clutches their heads, leaving him visibly unaffected. The press can probably milk that for all it's worth.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

Lightray,

I agree completely. My player was also afraid of "dying" every time he took damage or was stunned. Designing villains to target hiw weaknesses would just have made him more paranoid. (I am not saying that I never do that now, but it is not a good cure for paranoia.) Helping the player to realize that every combat is not going to kill his character is a good way to help them get into the genre.

 

Trebuchet and Dragon,

Thanks for the praise on my previous post.

We have a similar but somewhat different problem in our campaign right now. We have a teleporting 40 STR demibrick with very good defenses (second only to the team brick's) who just can't seem to make himself jump into the fray and melee. His best attack is an Offensive Strike for 14d6 (He's got a Boxing MA package with a couple of DCs), but he also has some good ranged attacks which he tends to use instead of his fists. It's the player who lacks the confidence. The one time he tried to jump in close he got one-punched by Durak (No surprise since Durak is really tough and rolled good to boot. Anyone on our team would have been flattened by that attack of Durak's.)

 

After reading this thread I've decided I'm going to try some confidence-building exerises instead of penalizing the player. I think the real problem is he just doesn't realize how tough he is. But I think if I have some tough guy brick slam him into the ground with a Buick and the character climbs back out of the wreckage maybe he'll get the idea. Some thugs blazing away ineffectively with assault rifles might reinforce the point. I hope once he realizes how really tough he is he'll get into it more.

 

 

 

I'm happy to give credit where credit's due, KA. I've sent copies of your comment on four-color gaming to all the members of our Champions group. (We run a 4C game, and it never hurts to reinforce the fundamentals.) Based on the replies so far, most of them thought it was good too.

[Vex]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

I don't see how people get "plays too much DnD" from "avoids damage like the plague." I'd almost think it'd be the opposite case. Taking damage in DnD isnt't that bad.

 

You may think that, but my group of hard core D&D players don't think that way. I am running an Exiles campaign and they are in the process of building their own "enemies" by making the campaigns "Weapon X" team. The problems I am running into are:

 

1. Characters with high defenses. Even though they have read the section that says 12 DCs and 80 AP is max, they want to give their characters 30 PD and ED (OIF and Visible....yes I know it isn't legal). One of the guys is building Ash from the Army of Darkness movies and he has 30 PD and ED all Resistant because "he can take superhuman amounts of damage".

2. It says 12 DC is max so you are an "idiot" if you don't take 12 DC.

3. Besides everything running at 12 DC, every character should have a multipower with every form of attack they can concieve. One guy wanted to build Aphrodite 9 (I think a "generic" female robot with two blaster guns) and another of the players was saying to not buy the guns that way but to buy a multipower with grenades, grenade launchers and all kinds of different guns so that the character can have an area of effect radius attack, a one hex attack, an NND, a Killing Attack, at least one stat drain, etc...

4. They are trying to make sure that they have EVERY skill at least once, if not twice or more in the group (I have never had a group all want to have skills, it is just weird).

5. Everybody wants regeneration....

 

I am trying to figure out a nice way to constrain them, especially on the defense issue. The problem apparently comes from a villian I had based on Cannonball, even with 2 skill levels in Move Through he was at -4 to hit and usually needed a 6 or 7 or less to hit. He hit twice in the encounter and did 50 stun......so everytime I say something like "why are the defenses so high", they say "because you regularly do 50 stun"....

[RDU Neil]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

I haven't read the entire thread, so if someone else mentioned this, sorry for the repeat.

 

The description in the first post, to me, seems to be a perfect GNS conflict.

 

The GNS describes three modes of play that can work together, but when they break down, are often the cause of games breaking down.

 

G = Gamist... in this, the players look to be presented with challenges at which they use the rule set to "win."

 

N = Narrativist... in this, the players main focus is on exploring themes, emotional questions... what is called "premise" so that the event have a "story" in the true sense of exploring meaningful situations.

 

S = Simulationist... in this the players main focus is on being part of a consistent, cause & effect world... where actions are taken "to see what happens" rather than to "win" or to "address premise."

 

Again, all three together can and should work, but often breakdowns happen when the different modes conflict. In the original post, it sounds like a possible conflict between Gamist (use the rules to win) vs. Sim (accurately recreate a world or genre in a consistent manner.) The player is playing gamist, using the rules to maximize character effectiveness and overcome challenges. The GM sounds Sim... he wants his games to reflect the genre (not clear if it is Four Color or Iron Age, but he seems to have some such desire) and the gamist character development conflicts with this.

 

Classic GNS breakdown. Munchkins vs. Genre freaks

 

Now... any game system can support any mode of play, but some game systems support one mode better than another. Hero is most likely better at supporting Sim play... but it can clearly be used for the ultimate in gamist play... if that is your mindset.

 

To my mind, this conflict requires a whole helluva lot of pre-game discussion. People need to come clean on their expectations of the game... different desired outcomes... (and in no way do I suggest using the GNS terms, unless you are comfortable with them. They can come across as technical gibberish and be used to condemn one style of play over another, which is not the intent.)

 

Questions like "I want the games to feel like comicbooks. Do you want the same thing? Is the group agreeing on this?" need to be asked. You can't assume everyone is on the same page. Entire approaches to role playing can differ. Some see it as a "game" like Magic or chess, but more involved. It is about the rules and what you can do with them. Others think of it as "collective story telling" or whatever... and even there, what constitutes a story can be devisive.

 

The fact is, this requires stepping back from the rules system, and even from the campaign itself, and saying, "What do you want out of these RPG sessions?" Hell, half the people, when asked, probably won't be able to tell you, but it is a start. Admitting that something is incompatible, taking the high road in trying to fix it... that's where to start. The player could really listen, or they might be stuck on control issues and just there to make the game go "their way" no matter the cost.

 

In the end, bring up cooperation and self-limiting play. Just as a good GM tries to create a game that involves all the characters, and doesn't go out of his way to make unwinnable situations or hose specific characters, players need to do the same. They need to adjust their play so that they give back to the group... and if they wan't to demand a certain style of play that the rest don't agree with, they may demand themselves right out of the game.

 

Good luck.

[Lowly Uhlan]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

The sniper sydrome was a problem in the Champions game that my GM ran previous to the one I played in. Kind of the same deal, a mutant with n-ray vision, high speed, and a really big gun that could shoot through walls. A few of the other players took the gamist approach (except we called them miunchkins) as well. Things got really out of hand. The GM was a Hero newbie, he basically stopped the game, told one of the munchkins he wasn't welcome back, made the other one create a new character and started over with new caps on active points, PD/ED, ect..Kind of drastic, but it worked.

 

If it was my game I would take the suggestions mentioned earlier of adding a villian that was quick and stealthy and had a nasty attack power to stalk the sniper character.

 

But the Alex Raven's suggestion to have a mentalist force the sniper to take out his fellow heroes is wicked and sounds like it would be really fun to GM.

[Tamashii2000]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

Unfortunitly, sometimes the 'stop, throw out the problem.. and set real limits on character creation' is whats required to make things work. Its hardline but mostly effective. Only draw back is you may lose more players then the one 'problem' player you toss.

 

The way I handled a simular problem, I started a battle and then a turn into it, an alien 'power' teleported the combatents to another world.. (Minus the sniper who was to far away) so the sniper got to sit out the game..

 

Pissed him off to the point he almost quit, but it made the point.

[Dog Soldier]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

How about borrowing a concept form Everquest. "Summoning", a villain has the power to teleport someone to within melee range. The sniper shoots and draws the attention of the villain then "BAMF" he's standing front and center, close enough to touch.

[Tamashii2000]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

How about borrowing a concept form Everquest. "Summoning"' date=' a villain has the power to teleport someone to within melee range. The sniper shoots and draws the attention of the villain then "BAMF" he's standing front and center, close enough to touch.[/quote']

 

Eww.. I somehow forgot about that one, have been lucky enough in EQ not to encounter that just yet. You realy want to go overboard..have the Villian be able to root too (Summoned in front of him..the make it so he can't run)

[Dog Soldier]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

Root would be good, Fear and Snare would work as well. The player can try to run away but he can only move slowly, so slow that the villain can easily keep up. Then he realizes that the villain actually wants him to try to run so that he can take free shots at the characters back. Put him in the position of having to make a test to turn around and fight.

[Kelvin]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

Here's another possibility for encouraging the Sniper to get into the same game as the rest of the team:

 

How about a villian (or an environmental side-effect), that causes the heroes to exchange bodies at the outset of the combat?

 

Now everyone has to make do with their new skill set (GM: "You all feel a brief, but intense feeling of dizziness." Player "I fly up to the top of the building..." GM: "Your boot jets don't seem to be activating, and you feel bulkier than normal somehow..." (Hmm, perhaps he's got the body of the team brick?))

 

The hoped-for outcome is the sniper character will have a chance to see someone else have fun mixing it up with his character, maybe without resorting to firing from afar.... Plus, of course, maybe having fun mixing it up with someone elses PC, without being able to snipe.

 

This has the benefit of getting the sniper player out of sniping mode, without specially targeting the sniper character

 

This can provide a real break for the routine, and be blast for all involved. (It does depend on a certain amount of player-to-player trust, however.)

 

Needless to say, as GM you'd have to make sure no-one got killed under another PC's control, that would be unfair!

[Dog Soldier]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

Of course you could set up a scenario that made his ranged attacks essential. From the comment about the team Martial Artist wading into a bunch of agaents I think you may be using a very limited number of scenarios with no real risk to the team. How about occasionally pitting the team against opposition that administers a beat down and it's up to Power Armor Guy to save the day? If he runs away from that then I'd say you have a problem, otherwise you're just tryng to stick slavishly to genre and really don't need anything but a bunch of Bricks to play.

[SDK]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

The local press could show a snippet of him fleeing combat and stop before he engages from a distance, nicknaming him "The Incredible Chicken Man" and discussing in public whether he's the kind of "Hero" they want to defend their city.

How about "The Brave Sir Robin"

[st barbara]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

Most of those answers sound pretty good. How about having a super speedster or someone with teleport chase him ? This might keep him far enough out of the action to be ineffective.

[st barbara]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

Hmm "Kelvin" our G M tried to do the body swap thing to us on one occasion; but one of the players objected so vehemently that the idea was abandoned ! In some ways this is a pity as the thought of playing the teams brick who was 7ft tall and looked like a traditional gargoyle from a Gothic cathedral with LOTS of strength when I normally play a 5ft 2'' lightly built, beautiful girl with energy blast powers could have been FUN ! (At least as a one off)

[Haerandir]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

I like the body-switching idea. It has the virtue of not feeding the sniper's paranoia, and creating more fun for the entire group. In addition to varying the tactical situation and designing counter-sniper opponents, you should look into more strategies for involving the whole team in the solution. See if you can't identify a tactical weakness in each team member, and design a threat to exploit each of them. If your sniper player sees the other players struggling to handle opponents designed to counteract their strengths, he's less likely to feel like he's being punished, and more likely to see the benefits of occasionally playing against type. Handled carefully, you should be able to pitch it as the old "these guys are too powerful/well-prepared for us to fight individually, we'll have to work together as a team!" trope.

 

I think that you should definitely be careful not to give the impression that you're singling the sniper player out for special punishment. If, as RDUNeil suggests, it's a GNS issue, then allowing the situation to devolve into a personal struggle between GM and player is not going to help. In any contest between a GM (who controls the environment) and a player (who controls only a single character), the single player is bound to lose, and that can only lead to hard feelings and a fragmented group. Also, time devoted solely to modifying the behavior of a single player leaves the rest of the group just as bored and out of the loop as time spent gratifying the ego of a single player.

[Guest Weston]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

I just read this thread now, so I have to admit that I've only skimmed a lot of the posts in it. I apologize if anything I write here is a repeat of a point already made by someone else. I'd like to make an observation about the player, then make a suggestion for dealing with his behavior.

 

First, it sounds like you've nailed the source of the player's behavior: insecurity in general, and fear of getting his character hurt. In addition to the "STUN and BODY must be preserved at all costs" attitude, another clue about this is that he jets so far away from the fight. I don't know if you map your fights, but if you do you must have noticed that there are some players who prefer to keep their characters off the map. Usually they do this by keeping their characters invisible or just plain ol' far away. Of the players who do this, the most innocent just seem to be hoping to keep their characters out of sight and out of mind. Others do this because it allows them to fudge their position a bit to respond to changes in battlefield conditions without burning actions to do it. Anyway, your player may be one of these "off the map" players.

 

I agree with many of the suggestions that people have made for working with the player. If you want to keep him in the game, then I also agree that it would be a mistake to do anything overtly (and, I'm sure the player would say, arbitrarily) punitive. In addition to some of the suggestions that others have made, here's an in-game tweak you could make (it's about as subtle as a punch in the nose, but it might work): if you don't already have an NPC in the group, you might want to introduce one. If you do, DO NOT have the NPC show up the sniper by constantly saving the day, out-sniping the sniper, or showing how easy HTH combat really is. Players rightfully hate it when GMs do that. But what if the NPC were to have a "aura" ability, some sort of Healing and Aid ability that would help the rest of the party, but only out to a relatively short range? The sniper might feel more secure in staying close to the action that way, or at least might feel as if he were missing out on something good if every other member of the team felt some aura goodness while he flew out of the area of effect.

 

Anyway, just a couple of suggestions among many better ones. Good luck!

 

-- Weston

"In the faculty of writing nonsense, stupidity is

no match for genius." -- Walter Bagehot

[Vorsch]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

I think some of the problem has to lie with the GM, you allowed a character with probabilly NRM, Psl attacks which must of looked like a sniper character. Did you ask the player at the time? did he say that was his modus operandi.

 

Dont try and embarrass or create vilains to his weakness, just tell him its a four color game and people are expected to be on the map, change your tactics or gen another character.

 

His player is playing his character to his strengths ( which you OK'd ), dont turn the universe on him.

[Kelvin]

Re: Help: Sniper Syndrome

 

Hmm "Kelvin" our G M tried to do the body swap thing to us on one occasion; but one of the players objected so vehemently that the idea was abandoned ! In some ways this is a pity as the thought of playing the teams brick who was 7ft tall and looked like a traditional gargoyle from a Gothic cathedral with LOTS of strength when I normally play a 5ft 2'' lightly built' date=' beautiful girl with energy blast powers could have been FUN ! (At least as a one off)[/quote']

Ahh, too bad it didn't work out in your group . It really depends on individual circumstances, and might require a lot of finesse on the GM's part as to who switches with who... Hard to pull off unless players will treat each others characters decently (and they all know that).

 

I'd agree a one-off scenario is best (preferably in a lighter vein). I'm laughing imagining the switch you described (it could work well both ways). A little bit of ham acting, and you have a game to remember for years ... sigh (wipes tear).

 

-- Scott