The Authority:What the heck?

[Chuckg]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Heh. Maybe he read his "fan mail" from his AUTHORITY run.

[Allandrel]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Mark Millar is a very interesting writer. It's hard to judge him by any one work. Look at Ultimate X-Men for example: they want to change the world, but they are doing it ethically. They are doing it by example. Professor Xavier could have simply rerouted the President's mind to be mutant-friendly; instead he did it the hard way.

 

Actually, Ultimate X-Men does include characters who act exactly like the Authority. There's an image early on of a "morally superior" man standing over the naked, humilaited President, holding a tattered American flag in his hand.

 

It's Magneto, of course. The bad guy. However valid his grievances, his actually are clearly marked as villainous.

 

(The Authority would agree, but that's only because Magneto isn't a member. If her were, he could do whatever he wanted.)

 

If you want to read the wierdest story Millar has ever read, pick up Marvel's Trouble. It's about a bunch of horny teenagers being stupid. That's all. It's essentially an old-fashioned pregnancy melodrama.

 

Patrick J McGraw

[Blue]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Well, since Millar has no editorial control, Marvel would likely burn his script the second he made Cap unpatriotic unless he could convince them he was onto something brilliant.

[Rene]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Well' date=' since Millar has no editorial control, Marvel would likely burn his script the second he made Cap unpatriotic unless he could convince them he was onto something brilliant.[/quote']

 

Perhaps, but his take on Ultimate Cap's patriotism is so heartening that I find it hard to believe Millar is doing it just out of duty to Marvel Comics.

 

There is a scene where newly-found Cap is depressed because all his family and old friends are old or dead now. He says he has lost everything he loved. Then Nick Fury says "Not everything," and points to an American flag. And then Captain America looks at the flag, the sunlight falling on his face.

 

So I mantain my oppinion that Millar is simply a writer fond of extremes and playing with raw emotion. As opposed to guys like Ellis or Alan Moore, I don't think Millar is really much of a political writer.

[Rene]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

"Guys who can hear atoms whizzing around just can't get away with ignoring screams for help from third world concentration camps anymore".

 

It must be pointed out that the main reason for superheroes not interfering in real world business is pratical (and apolitical). I think Marvel and DC just want to keep the "real" portion of their universes recognizable to avoid greater editorial work and further confusion for new readers and adaptations in other media.

 

Furthermore, heroes interfering in real events would mess with the continuity in other ways... if the Avengers had helped the US win the Vietnam War, that would tie the Avengers to the Vietnam Era, making it harder for Marvel to keep them forever young, since you'd had to reference those old stories to explain why Marvel Universe Vietnam is "capitalistic".

 

Left-wing writers like Warren Ellis have used (sometimes very effectively) superhero "non-interference" as a symbol of harmful apathy, egotism, hypocrisy, or even "fascist" protection of the status quo. But I would also point out that "complacent" superheroes might have nobler reasons for not interfering. You topple the old boss, you become the new boss. And most times the new boss ends up becoming not that different from the old boss, heh? Maybe superhero interference inevitably leads, in the long term, to a superhuman aristocracy ruling the world?

 

Would it be worse than what we have now? Maybe not. Sincerely, I think I prefer to trust people who got their power in weird accidents than people who achieved power through (sometimes quite unhealthy) personal ambition. I'm not sure power corrupts, but I'm damn sure that corruption empowers, in our nice little world. People who are accidentaly powerful are less likely to be corrupt, IMO.

 

Still, it's not a clear-cut issue, morally speaking. I no longer disdain the position of "political non-interference" of your usual superhero. Maybe they know what they're doing.

[assault]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Left-wing writers like Warren Ellis have used (sometimes very effectively) superhero "non-interference" as a symbol of harmful apathy, egotism, hypocrisy, or even "fascist" protection of the status quo.

 

To be honest, as a left-winger myself, I prefer superheroic "non-interference".

 

My reason is quite simple, and can be encapsulated in the words: "Captain America, Commie Smasher".

 

OK, in this particular case, I could deal with this on an ironic level, but it points out the problem that any kind of "interference" will necessarily involve the characters taking a particular political stance.

 

This isn't good.

 

The problem is: which political stances would be adopted? Who gets to decide?

 

In fact, of course, there is a great deal of tacit acceptance of the status quo in (mainstream) comics as they are currently published. Gosh,now there's a surprise.

 

On the other hand, an outbreak of conscious propagandism in these books would be a definite step backwards.

 

I guess the question is: should Superman fly to Qurac and sort out the local government?

 

At the moment, I would rather he didn't.

[Rene]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

The problem is: which political stances would be adopted? Who gets to decide?

 

...an outbreak of conscious propagandism in these books would be a definite step backwards.

 

Characters taking political stances don't necessarily equate propagandism. It's all up to the writer and how he depicts the results and consequences of the character's actions, and wheter or not he also highlights the bad that comes with the good.

 

There are writers whose political sympathies become obvious in their writing; they either set out to send a message or their political convictions are so strong that they inevitably show. And then there are writers that tackle political themes while trying not to proselytize, or they happen to have a political position that isn't strong or easy or simple to summarize.

 

I would feel safer letting a writer of the second type doing this kind of story.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

The problem isn't when a character has a political opinion. The problem is when the comic as a whole is written so as to make one political opinion look correct, through the use of straw mans and such.

[Blue]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

There's a long, long story Thor story arc about inheriting the Odin-Power and using it to do things like fight wars in small countries, feed the hungry, create items that manufacture power cleanly...

 

And ultimately it seems it created a world where people didn't have to act for themselves, and decisions were taken out of the hands of citizens.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

I think "Squadron Supreme" was the best story of this type.

 

Granted, if they'd managed to avoid the trap of 'Behavior Modification', they might have lasted a lot longer before going down that road paved with good intentions.

[assault]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

The problem is that people tend to assume that "interference" necessarily involves world conquest.

 

The problem starts long before that.

 

Look at it like this: a hero decides to remove a particular government from power. Another hero decides to oppose him.

 

Who is in the right?

 

There is, of course, no objective way to decide, since the writer and editor will slant the story as they see fit.

 

In reality, such an action would cause all kinds of ramifications. People would wind up on both sides of the fence, either condemning or supporting the action. It would very likely lead to war.

 

Either way, the story would lead to significant changes in the setting. Whether or not that is a good thing depends on the situation, of course.

 

Worse, in the real world, stories like this start to take on aspects of propaganda. After all, if it was correct for Superman to remove the "nasty" government of Qurac in the comics, doesn't that mean that it was correct for the US government to remove the "nasty" government of Iraq in the real world?

 

Regardless of your opinions on the latter question, doesn't this kind of story start to take on a significance beyond that of "mere" entertainment?

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

well, there have been a lot of political themes in comics lately--JSA just had a plot involving the takeover of a country by superheroes, and so did Fantastic Four. I think those plots have taken on more depth and realism, as the readers(and writers) have matured. Usually the result is kind of a muddled mess--the heroes improve some things, but in the process they lose much of their moral focus.

[Allandrel]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Worse' date=' in the real world, stories like this start to take on aspects of propaganda. After all, if it was correct for Superman to remove the "nasty" government of Qurac in the comics, doesn't that mean that it was correct for the US government to remove the "nasty" government of Iraq in the real world?[/quote']

 

Interestingly enough, the DC US Government's actions against Qurac, and the President's statements about Qurac, pretty much exactly match the real US government's actions in Iraq. The DC US President has made several statements that are direct quotes of the real US President.

 

It becomes political commentary when one considers that in the DC Universe, the President of the United States is Lex Luthor.

 

Patrick J McGraw

[BlackSword]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

well, there have been a lot of political themes in comics lately--JSA just had a plot involving the takeover of a country by superheroes, and so did Fantastic Four. I think those plots have taken on more depth and realism, as the readers(and writers) have matured. Usually the result is kind of a muddled mess--the heroes improve some things, but in the process they lose much of their moral focus.

The JSA/Hawkman "Black Reign" story line was very well done. It shows Black Adam in a very sympathetic light. Granted, the regime he over throws makes Saddam look angelic, so there is a lot of sympathy for him trying to free his homeland. In addition the heroes attack on Black Adam and their former allies raises quite a few questions. The end was quite appropriate.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

It becomes political commentary when one considers that in the DC Universe, the President of the United States is Lex Luthor.

 

Aheh... um... well, no, not anymore... now its Pete Ross.

[Allandrel]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Aheh... um... well' date=' no, not anymore... now its Pete Ross.[/quote']

 

Yes, and it will be interesting to see how he deals with the fallout from Luthor's fall from grace.

 

Patrick J McGraw

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Yes, and it will be interesting to see how he deals with the fallout from Luthor's fall from grace.

 

Well, apparently (as of the last issue of Outsiders... which is shaping up to be an incredible book) his first act toward "dealing with it" was firing Jefferson Pierce because of Pierce's "moonlighting".

[Vorsch]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Lex Luthor as president, never happen in the real world. Hes a ruthless ,under hand ,criminal , controll freak, moral vacume, power monger...... but most importantly he has no hair, that alone stops his election.

 

And saying that if he was your evil nemisis would you allow him to be in controll of the most powerful nation on earth ( like superman ) or would your hero go "no way" and kill the Bas&*^d, swallowing all those code vs killing and law abiding disads. Or follow your moral path into Hell ( Hitler was elected democratically ), cos Lex can now change the law .

 

The path of the hero is not to follow the current administration , but his heart and a sense of justice, and as such should always be "wild Cards" as far as the goverment is concerned. A superhero fights for truth and justice and in a dark world they are the enemy of the goverment X-men etc.

 

this should be on the Authority post sorry for Ranting.

[Rene]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Worse' date=' in the real world, stories like this start to take on aspects of propaganda. After all, if it was correct for Superman to remove the "nasty" government of Qurac in the comics, doesn't that mean that it was correct for the US government to remove the "nasty" government of Iraq in the real world?[/quote']

 

It becomes propaganda only because Superman is the one doing it. Superman's been groomed to be DC's infallible moral center, a man who always does what is right (well, except in alternate world stories, like Kingdom Come and Dark Night Returns).

 

If they use a less infallible character (for example, no Marvel character has quite Superman's moral authority), any political action could still be treated just as a individual character's action, as long as the writer tried to capture the ambiguities.

 

 

Regardless of your opinions on the latter question' date=' doesn't this kind of story start to take on a significance beyond that of "mere" entertainment?[/quote']

 

Yes, but I'm not sure this is a bad thing. Furthermore, there are people who are entertained by stories that deal with real issues. I enjoy this kind of tale myself, if it's done right. I enjoy the way JMS's "Supreme Power" deals with politics, for instance.

[Allandrel]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Lex Luthor as president' date=' never happen in the real world. Hes a ruthless ,under hand ,criminal , controll freak, moral vacume, power monger......[/quote']

 

All of which he has managed to keep out of the public awareness, until Superman and Batman finally took him down.

 

...but most importantly he has no hair, that alone stops his election.

 

Admittedly we haven't elected a bald man since Eisenhower...

 

And saying that if he was your evil nemisis would you allow him to be in controll of the most powerful nation on earth ( like superman ) or would your hero go "no way" and kill the Bas&*^d, swallowing all those code vs killing and law abiding disads. Or follow your moral path into Hell ( Hitler was elected democratically ), cos Lex can now change the law .

 

Superman has agaonized over what to do about Luthor's winning the Presidency. I find the path he took (attempting to expose Luthor for who he really is, rather than simply declaring "he's bad" or forcibly removing him) very commendable. He was presented with a moral problem, and he did the best he could. And ultimately he succeeded: Luthor was not simply removed from power, but exposed to the world for the vile, vile man he is. Because of how Superman chose to respond to Luthor's election.

 

Patrick J McGraw

[assault]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

If they use a less infallible character (for example' date=' no Marvel character has quite Superman's moral authority), any political action could still be treated just as a individual character's action, as long as the writer tried to capture the ambiguities. [/quote']

 

I guess so.

 

As for Marvel characters with moral authority: what about Captain America? When you get down to it, he is a personification of US nationalism/patriotism. Granted, he's much more subtle than in his earlier days, but his underlying nature hasn't changed. He would be a perfect vehicle for "we don't want to do this, but we have no other choice" messages.

 

Hmm. Actually DC's Uncle Sam would be perfect... He's obscure enough that you could do things with him that you wouldn't dare with one of the _profitable_ characters.

[Vorsch]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Havent read the stories and your post is very informative.

 

But Superman exposed the president of America, a Captain of industry, as a evil guy that everone elected for.

 

If you change the name from Lex to Bush/Reagan/Clinton it looks like one Powerfull superhero developing a priviously unknown Bias against the Incumbant president and winning, all with little internationaly backlash at Lex or America.

 

Superman would not undermine a "real" president that way, not for his sake but for the countrys, this would be considered a moral choice. " Step down, or step in jail, Mr Lex president".

 

Then again im not American, what do i Know, very little some would say

[Rene]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

I guess so.

 

As for Marvel characters with moral authority: what about Captain America? When you get down to it, he is a personification of US nationalism/patriotism. Granted, he's much more subtle than in his earlier days, but his underlying nature hasn't changed. He would be a perfect vehicle for "we don't want to do this, but we have no other choice" messages.

 

Captain America is the closer thing Marvel has to Superman. But I think he is been portrayed as slightly less infallible than Supes over the years. And in lots of stories he is shown as more more indecisive and at a loss about what his role should be.

 

Still, yes, I'd prefer that they avoided using Captain America this way too.

[nexus]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

Since a friend of mine is really into The Authority I get to see most of the issues for free. They really are a mixed bag for me. I like the art, some of the story lines are intriguing, but allot of the mood is just annoying. I mean they really want to them to be "right".

 

re:Alternate Earth 666 where Superheroes were so clean cut they refused to kill their opponents. And were slaughtered to a man for it.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

 

re:Alternate Earth 666 where Superheroes were so clean cut they refused to kill their opponents. And were slaughtered to a man for it.

 

Well, I think he might be making it that ridiculous on purpose. I mean, the utter nonsense of it all might be precisely what he is trying to portray.

 

In any case, I noticed the interesting numbering of the "Heroes Don't Kill" world myself.