M&M: this is a Nightmare?

[i3ullseye]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

My only problem with the DC system is one of scale.

 

The DC universe is generally way higher powered than any other comic universe. The scale was a linear doubling on each action point. So 2 was twice the strength of 1, and 3 was twice the strength of 2, etc.....

 

This is fine, but it leaves WAY too much grey area. By the time you hit strength of 6, you are already 16 times stronger than an average man.... and Superman had 50!

 

HERO certainly ahs the best power scaling, with 5 active being the doubling point, but it gives you that breakdown between the doubling points. Mutants and Masterminds kinda suffers from a bad power scaling also, hence the reason it works at a certain level range (about 7 thru 13) and starts to fail at all others.

 

In the old Marvel game, and the new one, it was never really an issue. Their ranks were never straight doubling, and they have a pretty finite cap to keep the range to about 12 at most overall.

 

Still, again... HERO wins hands down in this department.

[ChuckB]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

M&M's character creation process is pretty good for relatively simple and quick characters (although the Mimic power and the Cosmic Power power look pretty abusive).

 

Not sure how the combat rules are.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

My only problem with the DC system is one of scale.

 

The DC universe is generally way higher powered than any other comic universe. The scale was a linear doubling on each action point. So 2 was twice the strength of 1, and 3 was twice the strength of 2, etc.....

 

This is fine, but it leaves WAY too much grey area. By the time you hit strength of 6, you are already 16 times stronger than an average man.... and Superman had 50!

 

HERO certainly ahs the best power scaling, with 5 active being the doubling point, but it gives you that breakdown between the doubling points. Mutants and Masterminds kinda suffers from a bad power scaling also, hence the reason it works at a certain level range (about 7 thru 13) and starts to fail at all others.

 

In the old Marvel game, and the new one, it was never really an issue. Their ranks were never straight doubling, and they have a pretty finite cap to keep the range to about 12 at most overall.

 

Still, again... HERO wins hands down in this department.

 

 

Actually in DC 2 and 3 Superman and the rest of the heavy hitters were depowered. Superman only has a STR of 25 now.

 

Admittedly I found that DC has the hardest times dealing with the Batman/Green Hornet/Dare Devil type PCs. The aforementioned doubling of the APs means that not too much mechanically is different from these types of people. Low Powered games end up with alot of similar PCs around the table.

 

I handled this by going up scale on powers and running games at a base of 1000 Hero Points.

 

DC is good because it is the middle ground between old Marvel (simple) and Champions/HERO (complex).

 

But Champs will always have a place in my heart as the one true SuperHero game!

 

Hawksmoor

[churd]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

I picked up M&M about a month ago. Over the years I think I have owned just about every super RPG put out - from V&V back in the day to the recent SAS. I have never seen any game I even considered playable, let alone a viable alternative to Champions. I have to say though, looking over the rules I think M&M looks really good.

 

Having said that, I am not sure how much of a direct substitute it is for Hero. Champions is much more detailed and flexible, but it can also be cumbersome and clunky. M&M is much more simplified, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Personally I find it somewhat tiresome that EVERY Hero character now has a Multipower AND an EC AND about a half dozen martial manuvers. The sample character write-ups in M&M take up only half a page - the last time a Hero character was less than a page long was 3rd edition.

 

Still, I see most Hero players using M&M in addtion to, not as a substitute for, Champions. Although they are both superhero genre games their approach to the rules is dramatically different, and I think M&M will draw more from the general d20 audience than from Champions players.

[Starwolf]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

And you only need two dice!

 

Hawksmoor

 

I actually like having loads of dice....nothing can replace the look on a players face when you ask to borrow dice from around the table for Dr. D,s damage roll....

 

Plus I like the cross genre compatability possible with Hero

[Hawksmoor]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

I actually like having loads of dice....nothing can replace the look on a players face when you ask to borrow dice from around the table for Dr. D,s damage roll....

 

Plus I like the cross genre compatability possible with Hero

 

 

Starwolf:

 

I play Exalted. With Solars. I know dice pools.

 

Buckets, Heaps of Buckets.

 

I find i need at least 30 all for me.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hawksmoor]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

Plus when it was legal Z-man had this Multiattack power

 

The Zenith Effect

 

16d6 EB vs Energy

with a linked

3d6 RKA Explosion no range Pentrating personal immunity (4c)

7d6 Major Transformation to Dust All or nothing (4C)

 

And I liked to Push the EB. And Z-man was 300 pt PC. I loved being a powergamer.

 

Hawksmoor

[Victim]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

M&M's character creation process is pretty good for relatively simple and quick characters (although the Mimic power and the Cosmic Power power look pretty abusive).

 

Not sure how the combat rules are.

 

Well, Mimic is really expensive in practice (since you need to buy up the ability to affect high pp powers) and is resisted with a save. Cosmic Power is essentially just a prebuilt power - you can generate the exact same effect with the power construction system.

[ChuckB]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

Well' date=' Mimic is really expensive in practice (since you need to buy up the ability to affect high pp powers) and is resisted with a save. Cosmic Power is essentially just a prebuilt power - you can generate the exact same effect with the power construction system.[/quote']

 

Mimic's not all that expensive for what it does. You can easily build an Amazo or Super Adaptoid clone with your starting points (assuming 4 color) that can duplicate all the powers/abilities/etc of multiple people.

[Victim]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

That depends on how you build characters, actually. Most characters I see (or make) tend to have one larger, multi-effect power (like an EC). A Flight+Force Field+Energy Blast+Energy Field+Energy Control power costing 6/rank. Then you need 4 extras on mimic in order to copy the power, so the effective cost of mimic is much higher than you might expect.

[farik]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

My experience matches Victim's statement.

 

I find it interesting comparing the systems though that HERO has multiform and summoning which MnM doesn't on the other hand I think MnM has a much better basic duplication power.

[Sketchpad]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

Speaking as a sort of conniseur of Superhero RPGs, I've had M&M for quite some time In fact, I can honestly say I was lucky enough to playtest it, as well as the adventure Time of Crisis I think M&M depends on your taste in games ... both Hero/Champions and M&M emulate superheroes quite well. Champions does a good job in versitility and fleshing out the character ... while M&M emulates the quick action seen in the panels of comics, as well as having a quick creation engine for characters. Which is better? I don't think one is superior over the other ... I think one is Pepsi and the other is Coke ... some like one, others will like the other I use both :party: Depends on what the group wants to play ...

As for DC Heroes ... if only they could fix the skill system, the game would be perfect

[Dr Divago]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

You've seen it' date=' but have you [i']read[/i] it?

Well... not...

 

Hardly fair to critique something you haven't read.

Hey i'm not critiquing the system nor the game

 

i'm only saying that IMHO Hero is most powerful system for superheroic RPG, and another RPG cannot overmatch Hero in superheroic and/or "superpowers building" (or at least "hero mode to building superpowers")

 

and i've seen too much system "succumb" 'cause d20 system...

[Hawksmoor]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

As for DC Heroes ... if only they could fix the skill system, the game would be perfect

 

I too understand the weakness of the DC Heroes game's Skill set. There are only a few skills. It gets a little better in revised, but in general the problem remains in the generic Scientist Skill. One of my fixes is to have ONE Science Specialty free and other Science Specialties for +1fc up to fc10.

 

Other than that the Skill set is perfect for the as you said "Fast and Dirty" gaming that this middle of the road Supers game is perfect for.

 

"i roll a 96 to hit, How many collumn shifts on Grond?"

 

I loved my Champs to DC Conversions, I am going to *have* to rebuild them. I lost them in the computer crash of '03

 

Hawksmoor

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

Well... not...

 

 

Hey i'm not critiquing the system nor the game

 

 

and i've seen too much system "succumb" 'cause d20 system...

 

You're lumping it into a broad category of d20 which it really doesn't fall into, though. Saying Hero System is the best system for supers is OK. (I wouldn't say that, because there are few apples to apples comparisons among supers systems; each has benefits and drawbacks.) However, the blanket statements about d20 being applied to MnM, is a form of criticising. And you're right, I misused the word "critique," as you've only offered criticism. There's a subtle difference.

 

As others have stated, MnM strips away a lot of the d20 system, and IMO, what was removed makes it much better for supers play. There's room for improvement in the core mechanics, but it's pretty solid. It also gives a pretty decent character generation system, which owes a lot to Hero design philosophies, just as SAS does. But it's an orange, and Hero is an apple, and most other d20 games are, uh, pumaloes! So, you're not just making an apples to oranges comparison with MnM and Hero, you're making an oranges and pumaloes comparison with MnM and d20. Which isn't fair.

[ChuckB]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

That depends on how you build characters' date=' actually. Most characters I see (or make) tend to have one larger, multi-effect power (like an EC). A Flight+Force Field+Energy Blast+Energy Field+Energy Control power costing 6/rank. Then you need 4 extras on mimic in order to copy the power, so the effective cost of mimic is much higher than you might expect.[/quote']

 

You're right about that, but it's easy enough to take enough flaws to offset any extra costs. As far as I can tell, there's no active point limit equivalent in M&M.

 

In fairness, I should mention that I'm basing this on a character that I created for an M&M game and it's possible I might've built him wrong.

[Bill_CCHKK]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

You're right about that' date=' but it's easy enough to take enough flaws to offset any extra costs. As far as I can tell, there's no active point limit equivalent in M&M.[/quote']

 

There is, though, a level limit (and yes, MnM has levels, but they are only there to determine your staring points and how powerful powers can be). So, for instance, a PL 10 character can have, at most, a level 10 energy blast. There are also stacking limits, where if two powers have the same effect, such as armor and force field, their bonuses together cannot exceed level 10.

 

This does mean that you wind up with a situation where many (but not all) PL 10 characters wind up with level 10 powers. I don't think that this is much different from the Hero problem where if you have a 60 AP limit in a game, you wind up with a bunch of characters with 60 Strength or 12d6 EBs.

 

I will have to say that, although I have not played MnM, I've been playing *with* it, and I like it quite a bit. It seems harder to build the absolute, exact character like you can in Hero, but you can come pretty darn close. Character creation is much faster, and the combat system looks reasonable and quick. I can't compare it to other d20 games, since this is the first one I've bought, but I was looking for a less complicated and faster system to play with my kids, and I think that MnM fits that requirement nicely.

 

MnM is *not*, by any stretch of the imagination, a general system like Hero is, but I believe that it fits the Superhero genre very well. Kind of like, oh, Champions when it first came out, before it was considered to be a general system.

[Trebuchet]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

I don't think that this is much different from the Hero problem where if you have a 60 AP limit in a game' date=' you wind up with a bunch of characters with 60 Strength or 12d6 EBs.[/quote']That's why we dumped caps in our campaign. When we had a 60 AP cap everyone did 11d6 or 12d6 attacks. When we later lifted the caps to upgrade to Fifth Edition and decided to emphasize character concept instead the DCs spread out from 10 to 15. As is proper, the bricks do the most damage and the martial artists do the least. Our team average is probably still 12d6 or equivalent. (Mentor runs a mentalist called Prodigy with a 90 point mental powers VPP, but since Prodigy also has to run his defenses from said VPP he's never used more than 60 or 65 AP in any attack.)

[Starwolf]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

It is always better to stress character conception rather than min/maxing.

[Victim]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

While powers are capped at PL, stats modifiers, feats and certain manuevers can all add to damage above the normal limit. So damage will often vary from +10 (blasters) to +15 (bricks), not including any special manuevers or extras. Characters with skills like bluff or taunt and the feat surprise strike can do extra damage quite often, and some charactes will often combine All out attack+Power Attack to get extra damage at the expense of defense.

 

In HERO terms, most characters might be doing 12d6, the brick doing 14d6, and lots of characters have skill levels or talents that could add to damage in certain conditions. It's more variable than it sounds.

 

There's no active point limitation persay, but maximum ranks are limited by PL. A PL 10 character can only have Mimic +10, but is able to take many different extras for it. I've done things like take 10+ Area extras and as many flaws, producing a character with a power like this:

 

Nuclear Girl.

[stuff]

Radiation Powers: (source=mutation) 2/rank +2 (18 pp)

Radiation blast: EB +8 L (radiation)

Power Stunt: EB +8 L (rad) + many area extras - many flaws [~10000 ft rad]

[Dr Divago]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

As others have stated' date=' MnM strips away a lot of the d20 system,[/quote']

Well, d20 system is NOT a system, is a "mark" (i hope this word is correct... )

there's too much d20 systems (D&D3/3.5 are different to SWd20 that are different to Conan d20 and so on)

and IMO, what was removed makes it much better for supers play. There's room for improvement in the core mechanics, but it's pretty solid. It also gives a pretty decent character generation system, which owes a lot to Hero design philosophies, just as SAS does.

Well this is true

a superheroic system with "classes" in a standard fashion is... brrr... hellish...

(«I'm a brick of 10th/fire blaster 2th and icers 3rd alien... with a prestige class of "uncontrolled eye blaster" of 3rd level»)

 

but core mechanics are d20. And AFAIK there's no "speed chart" that really make a BIG difference between superheroic and standard RPG (only for istance)

 

But it's an orange' date=' and Hero is an apple, and most other d20 games are, uh, pumaloes! So, you're not just making an apples to oranges comparison with MnM and Hero, you're making an oranges and pumaloes comparison with MnM and d20. Which isn't fair.[/quote']

okay, you're right

i cannot compare M&M and Hero and other d20 systems

only, a bit of sadness Hero is so "badly seen" compared to d20 system (at least, by a big portion of role player in Italy)

[i3ullseye]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

I think I know part, if not ALL, of the reason HERO is not so easily recieved.

 

Elitism

 

Yup, and it is elitism on our part. Lets face it, the system is not the easiest to pick up, it may be one of the hardest. it does not have the least books to lighten your load, nor are the books thin or easy to read compared to many other games. The printing is very utilitarian, but no glossy photos. the game takes longer to make characters (generally0 than any other game even when you finally know the system well, and the game itself runs slower than most others until everyone is very familiar with the rules, and even then is not the fastest flowing game around.

 

But why do we prefer it? Not just because it is the most detailed, not just because it gives us the best ablance between players, not just becasue the balance between players and NPCs can be more closely monitored, not just because we can tailor the power level of the compaign to EXACTLY what we want. Etc. etc...

 

But because all of that makes the system the best.

 

Is there anyone who posts here who honestly does not think the HERO system is the very best game system there is? It may not be the one we run or play most, I haven't actively played or ran a HERO game in over 2 years. 2 Friggen years! But I will still state without hesitation that it is the best game system there is. That it is my favorite game system for almost any situation.

 

So until people DO put in all the work, and realize it is the BEST, all they hear is us trying to get them to try it... and telling them how great it is. Once they start the first bit of number crunching they can be put off... be we reassure them it is the BEST.

 

And that can become very standoffish to many groups.

 

My solution was to let it die and use the prevailing game system of choice for my group. First it was M&M, and then it was MURPG. I love both games. But we all know which one is the BEST, now don't we?

[AnotherSkip]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

V&V is pretty much tied for first with me..

[Metaphysician]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

I find it depressing that people are willing to spend 10+ additional dollars for a hundred fewer pages, just so they can have hard cover and pretty colors. . .

[proditor]

Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare?

 

I find it depressing that people are willing to spend 10+ additional dollars for a hundred fewer pages' date=' just so they can have hard cover and pretty colors. . .[/quote']Amen. I recently looked at Crooks! and leafed through it for a while. It was very pretty, nicely done. 50 villains. Full color plates. Pondering a purchase for conversion purposes, I looked at the price. 27.95. No way. 50 villains for 28 bucks vs....

- six master villains, including their agents, vehicles and other resources.

- five supervillain teams, ready to battle any group of heroes

- four dozen solo villains, suitable for combining into your own teams

for 25 bucks. Not to mention, 256 pages at 25 bucks vs. 128 pages at 28...

 

I just couldn't do it. It was pretty, it was eye-attracting. It was over-priced for me.