Plot device or by the rules

[Pegasus]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

I liked the fact that Gardners legs were sticking out from under the table for like what 3 issues. That was GMs discretion.

 

Hawksmoor

Giffen Legion Fan

 

Remember, part of the reason he was out so long was because as he awakened he was scared by a mouse and he hit his head again knocking him unconscious once more. When he awoke he was Sweet Guy. (There's a character that's been utterly decimated. They would have done better just to kill him.)

 

Madstone

Giffen JL Fan

[Pegasus]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

My players are really good. They know that if a villain's trap overwhelmingly works, it's for the story.

 

GM: Your group arrives in the empty room. Interestingly enough, the walls, ceiling and floor are all made of metal with no windows apparent. A moment later, a tremendous jolt of electricity flows through the room, knocking all of you unconscious.

Player 1: Uh-oh. Okay, where do we wake up?

The GM smiles and the players groan...

 

Wow, you have some really cooperative players there! I simply can't imagine trying this without numerous arguments, whinings, bitchings, etc.

 

I'm jealous.

[cyst13]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Madstone:

 

You should try springing one of these traps on your PCs. After they finish whining, bitching, and moaning, show them the post where the others players responded maturely and see if they are shamed into compliance. Of course, you then have to follow said trap with some really cool drama in order to make it worthwhile.

[McCoy]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Personally? When I don't have time to build it. My inner game mechanic builds everything; even if I "cheat" a plot device I find myself inevitably building it later.

What he said. The story is the most important thing, but the back story takes you unexpected places.

 

Last week I got a last minute inspiration. Godzilla suddenly appeared in the park accross the street from the hero's HQ. At the time I had no idea what had happened. But now I've had a week to think about it, about what power could transport Godzilla from Monster Island to New York City in a blink of an eye, and what powers would go with that one. The result is a character that I hope will present the players with some unique challenges.

[McCoy]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

I agree that you generally shouldn't have to figure out the d6's of damage a 100 megaton warhead would do; everybody in the area should just die. (I liked the guy who suggested this only applied to wimpy people with less than 350pts. I'd like to see how he stats out a metermaid)

*checks references* 100 Megaton? I'm geting between DC 50 and 51. I would probably do this as a 17d6 exploding KA, with a level of megascale, effects felt for a 17 km radius, but survivable by normals more than 12 km from ground zero (with f/u medical care). Let's see, standard effect 51 body at ground zero? There are PC's in my game that would survive that.

 

Point is, I have notes worked out for when I do need to wing it (this is roughly a ST:TNG photon torpedo btw).

[Snarf]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

I used to stat out most stuff without figuring out point costs, because it wasn't worth the effort most of the time, but then I got Hero Designer. Now I tend to stat out most stuff and Hero Designer does the hard work of figuring out the point values and such.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

I know almost nothing substantive about Amber. Do you find that the system penalizes people who are not articulate? If not' date=' how does it avoid doing so if the system is largely based on "descriptions" and "story-telling"? This isn't even intended as a back-handed criticism, I am truly curious. If it odes not, I wouldn't condemn it, though it would seem to me then that it is clearly for a specific subset of RPGers.[/quote']

It doesn't penalize at all, at least not the way I run it or have seen it run. There's really no reason someone should be penalized because they can't describe what their character is doing. Intent, purpose and tactics are what get rewarded. It makes no difference to me whether a player says "I attempt to feint at his hands, then avoid his parry and strike his thights...when he winces I'll entangle is blade and disarm him" or "I to disarm him." At least as far as acomplishing actions go. I prefer something descriptive and colorful and exciting, but if a player can't manage it I don't worry about it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Minor pet peeve: overblown nuke stats. Going by the metarules behind damage progression' date=' a 1 Megaton nuke should be a 15d6 RKA ( with some form of AoE, obviously ). They should *not* be treated as plot devices, except in low level ( 350 point ) campaigns.[/quote']

In any campaign that has players expected to deal with nukes as if they were common weapons, I'd want stats. If all you want is something that destroys everything in a given area, stats don't matter (though what you call it might).

[Pegasus]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Madstone:

 

You should try springing one of these traps on your PCs. After they finish whining, bitching, and moaning, show them the post where the others players responded maturely and see if they are shamed into compliance. Of course, you then have to follow said trap with some really cool drama in order to make it worthwhile.

 

Hmmm, shame my players into cooperation. Good idea. No, wait-it won't work.

 

My players are shameless.

 

[zornwil]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

It doesn't penalize at all' date=' at least not the way I run it or have seen it run. There's really no reason someone should be penalized because they can't describe what their character is doing. Intent, purpose and tactics are what get rewarded. It makes no difference to me whether a player says "I attempt to feint at his hands, then avoid his parry and strike his thights...when he winces I'll entangle is blade and disarm him" or "I to disarm him." At least as far as acomplishing actions go. I prefer something descriptive and colorful and exciting, but if a player can't manage it I don't worry about it.[/quote']

Huh. From these posts, I'm not entirely sure what to make of it but I do think I get the gist. I'll have to check Amber out sometime and see exactly what you guys mean. I've certainly heard good things.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Huh. From these posts' date=' I'm not entirely sure what to make of it but I do think I get the gist. I'll have to check Amber out sometime and see exactly what you guys mean. I've certainly heard good things.[/quote']

It's not for everybody, but I've yet to meet a HERO player that's tried it and didn't at least not hate it (most I know like or love Amber).

 

If you are lucky enough to find Amber Diceless pick it up. Even if you never play it, there is wonderful advice on role-playing in general that can apply to any system and genre. Also, if you can, check out Roger Zelazny's The Chronicles of Amber (a large compililation of all 10 books) which is the series the rpg is bassed on. The rpg seems to make more sense if you've read at least one of these books.

[lemming]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

It's not for everybody' date=' but I've yet to meet a HERO player that's tried it and didn't at least not hate it (most I know like or love Amber).[/quote']

I looked at it, but the group that was playing Amber just annoyed the hell out of me.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

In any campaign that has players expected to deal with nukes as if they were common weapons' date=' I'd want stats. If all you want is something that destroys everything in a given area, stats don't matter (though what you call it might).[/quote']

 

Yeah, but the only way you can tell if nukes will simply destroy everything, including the characters, is if they have stats to measure against the characters.

[GamePhil]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

I tend to write up everything by the rules, including plot devices, for one simple reason: I can never be sure that the write up won't be useful for something else later. I have on many occasions written up something that might seem like it should be hand waived only to have it give me ideas to use later.

 

On the other hand, if building the thing would only get in the way, I am certainly willing to cut to the action.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Yeah' date=' but the only way you can tell if nukes will simply destroy everything, including the characters, is if they have stats to measure against the characters.[/quote']

Or, I can just say it does. I'm the GM.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Or' date=' I can just say it does. I'm the GM. [/quote']

 

Yes, but then you enter the realm of "Yes, I know you had a 30 defense, 20 Body character survive a nuke in the past; your 35 defense, 50% damage reduction, 25 Body character still dies, because I'm the DM and I say so."

 

I *HATE* arbitrariness. The DM has no excuse for arbitrarily ignoring the rules when he has an unlimited point budget to play with.

 

IOW, if you want to absolutely, positively kill the players, then use some of those unlimited points to build an 35d6 RKA doomsday bomb, rather than exaggerate the effects of a real-world weapon.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Yes, but then you enter the realm of "Yes, I know you had a 30 defense, 20 Body character survive a nuke in the past; your 35 defense, 50% damage reduction, 25 Body character still dies, because I'm the DM and I say so."

 

I *HATE* arbitrariness. The DM has no excuse for arbitrarily ignoring the rules when he has an unlimited point budget to play with.

 

IOW, if you want to absolutely, positively kill the players, then use some of those unlimited points to build an 35d6 RKA doomsday bomb, rather than exaggerate the effects of a real-world weapon.

First, different nukes can have different yeilds.

Second, how many dice a GM is rolling should not be known to the players, the GM should be the only person with a god's eye view of things.

 

Either the players trust a GM to create an interesting situation for them to interact with in a fun way or they just don't trust the GM. If the later is the case maybe there are other issues that need to be addressed.

 

The Rules (of ANY RPG) are a FRAMEWORK that the GM chooses to use, not the other way around.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

First, different nukes can have different yeilds.

Second, how many dice a GM is rolling should not be known to the players, the GM should be the only person with a god's eye view of things.

 

Either the players trust a GM to create an interesting situation for them to interact with in a fun way or they just don't trust the GM. If the later is the case maybe there are other issues that need to be addressed.

 

The Rules (of ANY RPG) are a FRAMEWORK that the GM chooses to use, not the other way around.

 

FYI, and way off topic, the largest nuclear bomb reported was the soviet Tsar Bomba at 100MegaTons, the smallest was the US Davey Crockett at .1 Kilotons. Soviet Suitcase Bombs are reported to be in the .1-.2 Kiloton range but I haven't found any actual specifications on them.

 

Quite a range.

 

and I agree, the rule are a Framework for the GM who is in charge of telling a story. And if he can't figure out how to do something he needs to do with in "the rules" then he should be under no obligation to build it first as that will only result in slowing the game down.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Yes, but then you enter the realm of "Yes, I know you had a 30 defense, 20 Body character survive a nuke in the past; your 35 defense, 50% damage reduction, 25 Body character still dies, because I'm the DM and I say so."

 

I *HATE* arbitrariness. The DM has no excuse for arbitrarily ignoring the rules when he has an unlimited point budget to play with.

 

IOW, if you want to absolutely, positively kill the players, then use some of those unlimited points to build an 35d6 RKA doomsday bomb, rather than exaggerate the effects of a real-world weapon.

And when I enter that realm, I get really descriptive about events and circumstances. If I drop a 'nuke' on the players and want them to live, I provide a circumstance for them to live. If the last time they survied, it's not because of their own defenses. It's because they found cover at the last second (like a bomb shelter) or were on very edge of the blast or managed to teleport out of the area just as it was going off. Survival in this case has absolutely nothing to do with their defenses.

[austenandrews]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

The only time I've statted out The Bomb was in my short-run 50's space opera game, in which space rockets fired atomic torpedoes at each other. And that's only because they were a staple of combat. Otherwise it's entirely irrelevant exactly how much damage nukes do, because if I set one off in my game, those caught in the blast will either die instantly or take whatever lesser amount of damage I deem is dramatically suitable.

 

-AA

[cyst13]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Hyperman suggested above that players should implicitly trust the GM to roll the correct number of dice each time and never fudge rolls. This sounds ideal to me. Where do I find players like that?

 

I have to admit that in my own case, I'm more GM than player. When I am a player, I'm always thinking back to my own experience as a GM to all the times that I have faked die rolls and broken rules specifically to get the game to go the way I want it to go. No matter how much players may say they want the GM to play on the up-and-up, they really don't want the entire story to come crashing down because of a freak head-shot or something similar. As GM, I break the rules whenever I feel it suits the best interests of the story. A lot of times I even pretend to make die rolls in order to fool the players into thinking that I'm not just forcing things on them.

 

Obviously, I don't let them know I am doing this to them. However, when I'm playing a PC, I can't help trying to guess when the GM is doing these same things to me.

 

Am I completely amoral or is this the way you guys GM as well?

[zornwil]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Hyperman suggested above that players should implicitly trust the GM to roll the correct number of dice each time and never fudge rolls. This sounds ideal to me. Where do I find players like that?

 

I have to admit that in my own case, I'm more GM than player. When I am a player, I'm always thinking back to my own experience as a GM to all the times that I have faked die rolls and broken rules specifically to get the game to go the way I want it to go. No matter how much players may say they want the GM to play on the up-and-up, they really don't want the entire story to come crashing down because of a freak head-shot or something similar. As GM, I break the rules whenever I feel it suits the best interests of the story. A lot of times I even pretend to make die rolls in order to fool the players into thinking that I'm not just forcing things on them.

 

Obviously, I don't let them know I am doing this to them. However, when I'm playing a PC, I can't help trying to guess when the GM is doing these same things to me.

 

Am I completely amoral or is this the way you guys GM as well?

Not at all to gloat or anything, but we've never had a problem with people mistrusting dice rolls of the GM. Of course I believe everyone (or almost, I'm not sure about one guy) in our group has GMd, so that might be well to your point, I'm not sure.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Hyperman suggested above that players should implicitly trust the GM to roll the correct number of dice each time and never fudge rolls. This sounds ideal to me. Where do I find players like that?

 

[snip]

I'm fortunate to have a group of players who, if not trust me, accept the fact that I am GM and the dice are not. With that in mind, I keep a watch on events and simply ommit a die roll when I feel failure would be bad for the overall story. This includes players as well. If I think something if obvious, or someone really needs to notice something, I'll just roll dice behind my screen to determine who sees it first. If the city will blow up if the bomb isn't disarmed and I (or the players, it's their game too) feel that blowing up the city is "bad" for the campaign I'll make the player's Demolitions roll for him (noting the results and promptly ignoring them) and tell him the timer's still counting down... pause... then say it suddenly stops at 00:01. There's no point if killing everybody just because of one die roll unless the players wanted new character's anyway.

[Magmarock]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

Heh. I wish my players trusted me that much. Actually, I don't really have too many problems with my players, other than the occasional push for munchkinism. Then I have to slap 'em around like orphaned smurfs and they eventually come to their senses.

 

But really, when I used to roll my dice in front of them, the game turned more into a them vs. me situation. I really dislike the game when it comes to that. So I always try to roll behind a screen. I very rarely have to fudge my dice rolls, but the attitude of my players are a marked improvement when I use a screen.

 

 

Mags

[TheEmerged]

Re: Plot device or by the rules

 

RE: Trusting the GM not to fudge rolls. A wise man once told me that people always expect out of others what they would do if they could get away with it.

 

The flip side of that of course is that there *ARE* whackjob GM's out there...