Disadvantage/Limitation

[pawsplay]

How do you build this? The only solution I've come up with so far (Energy Blast with No Conscious Control) actually costs you points.

 

The idea is an energy blaster, who, under certain circumstances, loses control of their powers (their main attack power basically starts shooting in random directions). The concept I'm working on is an electrical character whose main powers go haywire in strong magnetic fields.

 

- This is obviously worse than the power simply not working under the circumstances.

 

- Side Effects come into play when the power is used. It is intended, if the character was walking down the street, and the circumstances occured, lightning bolts would start flying, so SE doesn't do the job.

 

- Susceptability is geared toward affecting the character, not this sort of effect.

 

Thanks for the input!

[GamePhil]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

One of the Side Effect options is "Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act". It reduces the SE by a quarter, and "some specific act" could be "enters magnetic field". The example given of this in the text does have the character using the Power, but it looks reasonable enough to me: having the Side Effect going off without you having the opportunity to use the Power should still be a Limitation.

[Snarf]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

GURPS has a version of No Conscious Control that works like this. You can use the powers how you like, but when under stress the power will go haywire and spontaneously activate in inconvenient or dangerous ways.

 

This seems like a missing limitation to me because it's appeared in various stories I've read. I was thinking of making a house rule that makes it a new version of -1 No Conscious Control that players could use.

[tesuji]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

Physical limitation.

 

base the level on the frequency and severity of the "discharges."

 

the superhero version of incontinence.

[zornwil]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

Physical limitation.

 

base the level on the frequency and severity of the "discharges."

 

the superhero version of incontinence.

Exactly, this is where I was going to head. You could also use some element of Accidental Change to model this if you like.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

Physical limitation.

 

base the level on the frequency and severity of the "discharges."

 

the superhero version of incontinence.

 

I would agree with tesuji. In fact this sounds similar to a Physical Limitation from The Master List of Limitations:

 

??? Powers Damage Character's Surroundings

Frequently, Fully: 20 Points

 

Type: Physical

Description: Whenever this character uses his powers, the objects and terrain surrounding him are damaged in some way. Floors can collapse beneath the character, personal items can catch on fire and objects can break, and people in close proximity can be damaged unintentionally. The exact cause of the damage should depend on the special effects of the character's powers. The GM can determine the exact effects of such damage, but a general guideline should be an Energy Blast attack, the dice of which are equal to the active points of the power used divided by 5.

 

Just adjust the Frequency depending on how often you see the circumstances causing this effect occurring.

[pawsplay]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

Thanks, Heroes. I think that fits the bill.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

I would agree with tesuji. In fact this sounds similar to a Physical Limitation from The Master List of Limitations:

 

??? Powers Damage Character's Surroundings

Frequently, Fully: 20 Points

 

Type: Physical

Description: Whenever this character uses his powers, the objects and terrain surrounding him are damaged in some way. Floors can collapse beneath the character, personal items can catch on fire and objects can break, and people in close proximity can be damaged unintentionally. The exact cause of the damage should depend on the special effects of the character's powers. The GM can determine the exact effects of such damage, but a general guideline should be an Energy Blast attack, the dice of which are equal to the active points of the power used divided by 5.

 

Just adjust the Frequency depending on how often you see the circumstances causing this effect occurring.

I usually go with the Master List, but this time no. First, this Disad doesn't fit. It only applies when the Powers are in use and assume the character is in full control of them at the time. Second, the List shows how it predates 5e. This specific Disad is actually a Side Effect Limitation presented in TUV.

 

I'd go with a more Limited version of Snarf's NCC. I use NCC at -1 to represent a Power that the player can activate at will, but doesn't have control over the level of Power used and one that might activate on it's own at random. If the character actually looses complete control and activates continuously in "reasonably common" circumstances, this could easily be a -1 as well.

[pawsplay]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

To work this is a Limitation, here is my thinking:

 

- Start with the Limited Power value, the Limitation for the Power to simply be unusuable in a situation

- Add a reduced Side Effects, probably 1/4 less Limitation ... the trigger is likely less common than most, but it affects the power, in use or not

 

This gets us a value ranging from -1 (goes haywire in uncommon circumstances, having a major side effect) to -1 3/4 (very common, major side effect). The latter is probably an undesirable construction.

 

So I think No Conscious Control (Triggered) for -1 fits, with an additional 1/4 Limitation if the trigger is fairly common.

 

Anyone care to compare/contrast with the "doesn't work in X..." plus a Physical Limitation construction?

[KA.]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

I think we may have found something for 6th Ed. here.

A new category of Disadvantage.

Right now we have:

 

Psychological Limitations for ideas that you can try to control.

 

Physical Limitations for things that just happen or do not change.

 

Berserk for attacks on things and characters that happen under a set of circumstances, that you can try to control.

 

And what we need is "Incidental"

Somewhat like Berserk, it describes a character with a power or powers that just "go off" under a given set of circumstances.

Unlike Berserk, there is no Recovery roll.

It just happens.

The value is based on the type of power, strength of the power, and how common the circumstances are.

 

KA.

[zornwil]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

I think we may have found something for 6th Ed. here.

A new category of Disadvantage.

Right now we have:

 

Psychological Limitations for ideas that you can try to control.

 

Physical Limitations for things that just happen or do not change.

 

Berserk for attacks on things and characters that happen under a set of circumstances, that you can try to control.

 

And what we need is "Incidental"

Somewhat like Berserk, it describes a character with a power or powers that just "go off" under a given set of circumstances.

Unlike Berserk, there is no Recovery roll.

It just happens.

The value is based on the type of power, strength of the power, and how common the circumstances are.

 

KA.

Why don't we broaden the nature of Accidental Change? What do you think?

[KA.]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

Why don't we broaden the nature of Accidental Change? What do you think?

 

Interesting idea.

"Change form" could be worth X points.

"Powers go off" could be worth Y points.

Change form and Powers go off" could be X + Y points.

 

Seems like it could work.

 

KA.

[pawsplay]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

Why don't we broaden the nature of Accidental Change? What do you think?

 

That's a possible approach. Especially if you defined it as a general Accidental Activation Power. Multiform would simply be one Power that could be activated. However, Accidental Change is currently defined by its nuisance value, rather than the power of the form you assume.

[zornwil]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

I'm just musing aloud here, but isn't it interesting that we have Accidental Change and Muliform yet no relationship and no requirements from A.C. to build Multiforms? Should there be a relationship? Should a disadvantageous Multiform be counted as a Disad at -1/x characters points? Along with values such as "-10 Form is still under PC control", "-5 Form is somewhat controllable by PC", "0 Form uncontrolled by PC", and "+5 Form wants to harm or kill PC".

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

I usually go with the Master List, but this time no. First, this Disad doesn't fit. It only applies when the Powers are in use and assume the character is in full control of them at the time. Second, the List shows how it predates 5e. This specific Disad is actually a Side Effect Limitation presented in TUV.

 

I'd go with a more Limited version of Snarf's NCC. I use NCC at -1 to represent a Power that the player can activate at will, but doesn't have control over the level of Power used and one that might activate on it's own at random. If the character actually looses complete control and activates continuously in "reasonably common" circumstances, this could easily be a -1 as well.

 

For this effect I agree with DR's assesment. It matches the intention of FRed exactly. The character occassionally has problems controling his powers and their inadvertant use damage his surroundings and passersby: That is Side Effects!

 

Hawksmoor

[zornwil]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

For this effect I agree with DR's assesment. It matches the intention of FRed exactly. The character occassionally has problems controling his powers and their inadvertant use damage his surroundings and passersby: That is Side Effects!

 

Hawksmoor

But I thought the character otherwise possesses and uses the power not at all. If that is the case, I think the nod goes to Accidental Change. To me that's the issue - is the player getting ANY gainful use of the power? If he is I'm good with your and DR's suggestion, but otherwise I think it's a Disad.

 

But to each his own - I just wanted to state the explicit line I see there.

[pawsplay]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

The character occassionally has problems controling his powers and their inadvertant use damage his surroundings and passersby: That is Side Effects!

 

However, Side Effects normally come into play when you use your powers. So it requires, at the very least, a modification of the SE Limitation.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation: Accidental Discharge

 

The idea is an energy blaster' date=' who, under certain circumstances, loses control of their powers (their main attack power basically starts shooting in random directions). The concept I'm working on is an electrical character whose main powers go haywire in strong magnetic fields.[/quote']

 

Hmm - its something I've toyed with for a long time and not been able to see it working in play as well as I'd like and so have never allowed it. While the ideas presented are interesting I thought I'd present the problems I found in using it.

 

My last attempt to model it was based on the Activation limitation. Thus within certain environments (emotional or physical) the power would activate outwith the control of the character. I costed this in reverse so that Accidental Activation 8- would be a +1/2 limitation that increased as the activation roll increased. (the commonality of the environment would shift the modifier up or down - so an 8- activated by an oxygen atmosphere would (if I recall correctly) be worth +2 or more).

 

This worked for me as far as creation mechanics were concerned. As for use in play, that was something else.

 

The first question was when would it activate? My answer was at the beginning of every phase an activation roll would be made and if the power activated then the player lost his phase.

 

The second question was how many dice should be used? My initial instint was to say that full dice, all the time. Thinking about it I realised that there was a case for saying that it should be pushed - a really out of control hero would blast everything around him until he fell unconcious - but there should also be some way of damping it down. Makes for more drama in the situation. I thought of EGO rolls etc but never quite settled on anything satisfactory here.

 

The third question was all about what the power would hit? Should there be an attack roll?? What CV should be used? My last thoughts on the matter were that the direction should (unless there were good special effects reasoms to the contrary) be random and that the attack should be spread so that everyone in a certain area would have to defend against it at the OCV of the out of control hero. Again I thought that there should be some opportunity to lower the chance to hit for those heroes able to bring some force of will to bear on their power.

 

Yup. My suggestions make it much more complicated and might even slow down a combat where the power goes out of control but if you can settle on some rules like this I think that the out of control power becomes a much more dramatic occurrence.

 

Doc

[pawsplay]

Re: Disadvantage/Limitation

 

When the power discharges, it should use OCV 0, but the guidelines for collateral damage should definitely be brought into play.