Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

.... And I have to say that playing with kids has reminded me of why playing superheroes is cool.

 

Well said. I never want to stop being a kid when roleplaying, otherwise what's the point?

[Rene]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I think another difference is that most RPGs seem to "shield" people from the math by not divulging too much about it until the "appropriate" sections of the rules;

 

That is the big advantage of GENREic systems. They first present an environment in which those rules will facilitate play, they first provide concrete examples of the archetypes the rules will manipulate (classes, clans, weapons, spells). Then, and only then, they will bring the math and the rules. By then, the reader will be more "in the mood" to swallow the usually rules-heavy combat chapter.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

So perhaps it's not surprising that d20 now as a system is riddled with inconsistencies and one-off rules moreso than "our" system while ours reads rather like a tech-geek book more than an RPG book.

 

If it makes it any better the Hero rulesbook is a lot easier to read then your average Telco Specifications Manual on any number of things...

 

it's organized for one thing.

 

To comment on WorldMaker's statement .. If you can't do sixth grade math and you're over 14, chances are I won't like you very much. I won't want to game with you and I definitely won't be taking the time to explain everything to you. [on that note .. I have no problem with sixth graders who are having a wee bit of difficulty, I'll cut you some slack.]

 

Like WM, I may be an elitist saying that but really ... it's math. COPE.

 

As for the Roleplay vs Rulemonger .. I'll take the Roleplayer over the other any time, as long as they can do basic math.

 

People let the littlest things stop them for no real reason other than pure laziness. "To much math." ... bah! get a calculator and be a Hero.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

If it makes it any better the Hero rulesbook is a lot easier to read then your average Telco Specifications Manual on any number of things...

it doesn't make it better to anyone who expects their games to not be juedged by technical manual standards.

 

it is however, quite illustrative of the gap between the perspectives.

it's organized for one thing.

To comment on WorldMaker's statement .. If you can't do sixth grade math and you're over 14, chances are I won't like you very much. I won't want to game with you and I definitely won't be taking the time to explain everything to you. [on that note .. I have no problem with sixth graders who are having a wee bit of difficulty, I'll cut you some slack.]

its like, i suspect, that with that tone and context and attitude, you also wont get a lot of people who can do the math but just prefer to not need to, who find it too much math (again for the umpteenth time, not too hard) for them to enjoy it.

Like WM, I may be an elitist saying that but really ... it's math. COPE.

Why? If i have a really cool RPG but you have to sit in pondscum for an hour before we will let you play and i say "COPE!" is that gonna show you the error of your ways and entice you to play?

 

Eliteism is deciding that you are superior or wont abide with those you consider inferior.. its about the choice you make. its not the attitude you are expressing... that has other words for it, which i wont get into here.

As for the Roleplay vs Rulemonger .. I'll take the Roleplayer over the other any time, as long as they can do basic math.

But what if they can do the basic math, but dont like it and choose not too?

 

really, if it wasn't the gazillionth time i heard hero guys running the "cannot do" math derision angle, it would still be just as old.

 

but really, in truth, keep up the good work. it just makes other games look more appealing.

People let the littlest things stop them for no real reason other than pure laziness. "To much math." ... bah! get a calculator and be a Hero.

 

Maybe that should be the logo on future hero books... "HERO: the RPG for all those who aren't lazy or stupid!" please, if you can, get a job at HERO in marketting. They need you!

[zornwil]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

(snip) Maybe that should be the logo on future hero books... "HERO: the RPG for all those who aren't lazy or stupid!" please' date=' if you can, get a job at HERO in marketting. They need you![/quote']

 

Put another way, one could as easily say "HERO: the ultimate toolkit" and still be saying something very similar.

 

Frankly put, the marketing appeal of HERO is indeed to a smaller audience than other games and always will be. Companies have to choose their marketing space. They can be broad-based or niche. They can be superior quality or superior "value". HERO is more the superior quality niche product. When it is marketing well it does not come across as elitist but does come across as a "serious" gaming "tool", and that alone diferentiates it. Doing otherwise, in my view, is to the detriment of HERO. The failure of Fuzion in the context of HERO is very much a marketing failure, and one that relates to a perceived betrayal of the core quality and "depth" of the game. It isn't really important how true that is. What is important is that what in some ways Tesuji's post takes as a weakness is also very much a strength. Naturally, one can cross the line to snobbery, but that just as obviously isn't the goal of HERO's marketing (nor am I attemping to imply that you, Tesuji, are saying that, I understand your remarks were in context of response to the prior note).

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

As a rule role playing as a hobby does not tend to attract stupid people. That does not mean that there are not plenty of good intelligent RPGers who view math as a chore (I count myself among them). Nonetheless' date=' I successfully designed characters and GM'd Champions/HERO with paper and calculator for 20 years before Hero Designer came along. (Choir: [i']"Hallelujah!"[/i])

 

Yeah, but after 22 years of doing it all by hand, I have to admit that HD makes it a lot easier.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

its like, i suspect, that with that tone and context and attitude, you also wont get a lot of people who can do the math but just prefer to not need to, who find it too much math (again for the umpteenth time, not too hard) for them to enjoy it.

 

Maybe so... but you know, I've got over 100 players now, most of whom I classify at least as superb roleplayers. The lack of math-lazy people isn't really hurting me any.

 

 

 

but really, in truth, keep up the good work. it just makes other games look more appealing.

 

I'd be curious to see if there was a privately owned (as opposed to corporate supported) d20 PBEM that does as much business as the GGU. Not saying that there isn't one out there, just saying that I'd love to hear about it.

 

 

 

Maybe that should be the logo on future hero books... "HERO: the RPG for all those who aren't lazy or stupid!" please, if you can, get a job at HERO in marketting. They need you!

 

If you hate Hero so much, why are you here?

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

Maybe so... but you know, I've got over 100 players now, most of whom I classify at least as superb roleplayers. The lack of math-lazy people isn't really hurting me any.

man, the sheer number of hero guys who need to be perjorative of others is astounding. Are there classes in this hubris? :-)

I'd be curious to see if there was a privately owned (as opposed to corporate supported) d20 PBEM that does as much business as the GGU. Not saying that there isn't one out there, just saying that I'd love to hear about it.

yup. pbem servers of specific types would be my standard for comparison, you betcha.

If you hate Hero so much, why are you here?

asked and answered more times than i can count.

not again.

[Rene]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Yeah, it's not that they can't do the math, it's just that they find themselves unpleasantly surprised that they're required to do it, because, you know, most other RPGs don't need much more than adding and subtracting.

 

But I agree with Zornwill, HERO isn't intended to be a RPG of mass appeal.

 

Now, if I had to make HERO more user-friendly, I wouldn't go the FUSION way. I'd keep all (or most) of HERO's rules in place, I'd just "disguise" most of them. For instance, imagine a new product called "Champions LITE". Full color, no more than 200 pg, full of flavour text.

 

We'd keep STR, DEX, CON, INT, EGO, and PRE. 6 chars. BODY would remain the same, but would become a "Extra Hit Points" Power instead of a CHAR. Same thing with COM that would become a Beauty Talent or Perk. All the Figured Characteristics would remain more or less the same, but would be moved to the Combat Chapter (and oh yes, END would be optional, and perhaps PD and ED would be joined). So now you have only 6 Chars.

 

Only those skills and perks more important to the supers genre would remain.

 

I'd present a decent list of pre-made powers for gamers to choose from. Instead of letting everyone build their own Superspeed and Weather Control, I'd build the "official" versions of Superspeed and Weather Control using the HERO rules and disguising the modifiers. I'd give cooler names to some of the powers.

 

There would be only a handful of the most simple Advantages and Limitations, and you'd have a percentage value for them, instead of -1/2, -1/4, etc. It's not any easier to do the math, but appears easier to the people unused to the system, because it's more intuitive.

 

I'd translate everything to feet and do away with the hex grid. It's not that you wouldn't be able to use a hex grid to play it you wanted to, it's just that the book wouldn't mention it (except perhaps in a optional chapter). The combat chapter wouldn't contain the gritty optional damage system. I'd probably use some mandatory variant of the standard effect rule to severely diminish the # of d6s rolled.

 

That is it, you'd have the very same system, with minor modifications, but with most of the complexity, the "there are too many options, help me!" factor removed. Then you could release extra books with more powers, more options. In the end, it's the same as HERO, but in a different format.

 

Now, the problem would be that HERO would look dreadfully similar to most other superhero RPGs in the market.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

man, the sheer number of hero guys who need to be perjorative of others is astounding. Are there classes in this hubris? :-)

 

Ah, I see. I offer myself up as an example of how your doomsaying is so much stuff and nonsense, but all I'm really doing is being arrogant. Gotcha.

 

I thought I was debating someone who would respond to facts, not sparring with a Seenar clone. My mistake.

 

 

 

yup. pbem servers of specific types would be my standard for comparison, you betcha.

 

I get on average eleven new players every two weeks. Out of those seven, there is usually three who will never have played the Hero System in their lives (and in a month's time, I'll get at least one player whose never ever roleplayed before). I have a volunteer staff of people whose sole purpose is to introduce them to the System, my gameworld, and the GGU community in as helpful a manner as possible.

 

Tell me, sir... how many new people do you regularly introduce to *any* game system in any given month?

 

 

 

 

asked and answered more times than i can count.

not again.

 

This, sir, is called "dodging the question".

[zornwil]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Yeah' date=' but after 22 years of doing it all by hand, I have to admit that HD makes it a lot easier.[/quote']

Actually I find HD harder than MetaCreator, so for me it's been a bit of a step back. However, it has its advantages, and is slowly becoming universally used in my gaming group. (The fools... )

 

Of course I still use MC a lot, for NPCs that don't have to be points-accurate.

 

BTW, no insult intended to HERO. While there are still some philosophical principles in HD I am opposed to, the path HERO/Dan has chosen is fair enough and I respect it. The tool is pretty decent and certainly there is no better alternative if you want a strictly orthodox HERO chargen tool.

 

And WM, I'm very glad to hear that HD is making it easier for you. I certainly agree that HD is better than pen and paper, and I hope my comments aren't taken as intended otherwise.

[zornwil]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

(snip)

 

asked and answered more times than i can count.

not again.

 

 

Heh, you may as well make it your sig!

 

WM - Tesuji literally answered this a day or two ago - basically it's the value of the experience of the HERO folks because we have one of the longest histories in the industry.

 

That and deep down Tesuji knows it's the best RPG there is...

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

And WM' date=' I'm very glad to hear that HD is making it easier for you. I certainly agree that HD is better than pen and paper, and I hope my comments aren't taken as intended otherwise.[/quote']

 

Not at all. I am currently running my group's PCs through HD, and what I am finding are places where I misapplied rules, or allowed a limitation that shouldn't have been, or missed something that I should have applied. Most of the characters, on average, are dropping in total cost by 10 points or so.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

WM - Tesuji literally answered this a day or two ago - basically it's the value of the experience of the HERO folks because we have one of the longest histories in the industry.

 

Then I withdraw my "dodging the question comment", with apologies to Tesuji.

[zornwil]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Yeah, it's not that they can't do the math, it's just that they find themselves unpleasantly surprised that they're required to do it, because, you know, most other RPGs don't need much more than adding and subtracting.

 

But I agree with Zornwill, HERO isn't intended to be a RPG of mass appeal.

 

Now, if I had to make HERO more user-friendly, I wouldn't go the FUSION way. I'd keep all (or most) of HERO's rules in place, I'd just "disguise" most of them. For instance, imagine a new product called "Champions LITE". Full color, no more than 200 pg, full of flavour text.

 

We'd keep STR, DEX, CON, INT, EGO, and PRE. 6 chars. BODY would remain the same, but would become a "Extra Hit Points" Power instead of a CHAR. Same thing with COM that would become a Beauty Talent or Perk. All the Figured Characteristics would remain more or less the same, but would be moved to the Combat Chapter (and oh yes, END would be optional, and perhaps PD and ED would be joined). So now you have only 6 Chars.

 

Only those skills and perks more important to the supers genre would remain.

 

I'd present a decent list of pre-made powers for gamers to choose from. Instead of letting everyone build their own Superspeed and Weather Control, I'd build the "official" versions of Superspeed and Weather Control using the HERO rules and disguising the modifiers. I'd give cooler names to some of the powers.

 

There would be only a handful of the most simple Advantages and Limitations, and you'd have a percentage value for them, instead of -1/2, -1/4, etc. It's not any easier to do the math, but appears easier to the people unused to the system, because it's more intuitive.

 

I'd translate everything to feet and do away with the hex grid. It's not that you wouldn't be able to use a hex grid to play it you wanted to, it's just that the book wouldn't mention it (except perhaps in a optional chapter). The combat chapter wouldn't contain the gritty optional damage system. I'd probably use some mandatory variant of the standard effect rule to severely diminish the # of d6s rolled.

 

That is it, you'd have the very same system, with minor modifications, but with most of the complexity, the "there are too many options, help me!" factor removed. Then you could release extra books with more powers, more options. In the end, it's the same as HERO, but in a different format.

 

Now, the problem would be that HERO would look dreadfully similar to most other superhero RPGs in the market.

I have thought of a similar route myself (great minds and all ) and I kinda wonder if Sidekick won't lead down this path? I also wonder if HERO would ever do something like you suggest but packaged into genre books (though then they couldn't be as "bloated" (note, I don't mean the negative connotation of that word, hence the quotes) as Fantasy HERO). However, I think the idea of genre one-off rulebooks for HERO is too contrary to the toolkit approach. The benefit of a book as you describe is that one could write genre books to work with it and whatever "big" book is around. Sounds like an interesting direction for v6.

 

Although that reminds me of something - don't many of you thnk that Fantasy HERO is perhaps one of the best expressions of HERO as overwhelming? No insult to Steve - in fact I think its depth actually caters well to its fan base - but that does look intimidating. Much of it is style - HERO is just plain dry, and sometimes Steve exacerbates that (while in many other books I've been pleased with his ability to "color"). And then there's the level of detail, much of it intended to complement the core toolkit and explain the derivation of the genre rules/tools from the base toolkit.

 

Anyway, don't y'all think that Fantasy HERO probably turned away some people? Then the question is, out of those turned away (if so), do you think those are people who wouldn't have enjoyed HERO anyway?

 

Big disclaimer - I still haven't read it, only barely scratched the surface. Actually I only kind gave the surface a glancing blow. But my first impression probably isn't too different from many people glancing at it in the store. And to be clear, I think it's probably a great book, I've heard too many good things and from my cursory examination I really think it's jam-packed with good stuff.

[zornwil]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Then I withdraw my "dodging the question comment"' date=' with apologies to Tesuji.[/quote']

It's an honest mistake. Though I was surprised you hadn't seen it as you're on the boards a lot. Then again these days few are on here as much as I am, so I can easily imagine you hadn't noticed it, I still have enough touch with reality to know that...well, reality does exist outside of here!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Now' date=' the problem would be that HERO would look dreadfully similar to most other superhero RPGs in the market. [/quote']

 

 

You mean you weren't directly describing Mutants & Masterminds?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I think I need to reword what I'm trying to say.

 

People will claim "I can't do the math" when they mean "I don't want to do the math." or "There's too much math!!" when I approach them. Sometimes they'll say one of the latter two - which is at least honest.

 

Maybe part of it is me .. I've spent the last five years as a Director for an anime convention and have watched more potential get wasted with the "I can't", "I don't like," and "I don't know how." and so on and so on excuses for simply "not wanting to."

 

If you don't want to do something say that, and we can move on. In the case of Hero "I don't want to do all that math." While silly to my ears is at least a reason and we don't game together. I have plenty of friends who would be awesome roleplayers but aren't because it doesn't appeal to them - not because they can't. It's all cool with me.

 

Even then I occasionally twitch .. especially at the "too much math." concept. I'm no fan of math, I actually hate it with a passion. But doing math is the trade off I get for what I feel is more a versatile, universal and over all more interesting system.

 

There's a quote - "No Freedom without Responsibility." The more you want the more you have to hold yourself accountable for.

 

You're telling me that someone who will put a significant amount of work into altering a D20 Sourcebook to suit their needs suddenly can't handle division? They sell themselves short.

 

And that's what I get riled up about.

 

If the person doesn't want to put the time in, I don't want to put the time into them - we'd be wasting both our time in the long run.

 

Hero is no harder than any other system, in my opinion. Just because it appears to be more difficult does not mean it is.

 

It's when people sell their own potential short that I get all bent out of shape.

 

I will, and have, spend hours going over the same thing teaching someone something as long as they are willing to learn it, or try. I just don't like people who sell themselves short on new stuff before going out and doing it.

 

And yeah - Hero is not for everyone. I don't game with everyone either. I am picky about who I game with to an extent.

[Vondy]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Hmmm. Hero is Hard?

 

Yeah - if you never passed the 7th grade. Presumably, by then, you can do all of the requisite math with relative ease. If not, you need to go back and hit the books again. The only thing I've found gamers indoctinated from other systems really have a hard time with is reasoning powers from effects and realizing a fire and an ice blast may have the same construct (where their other system spelled them out as separate powers). Once you grasp the abstraction its relatively easy.

 

Oh, what am I droning on about. Lets face it. Hero is VERY VERY VERY HARD. Its just for us elitist hero-philes. No one else is ever allowed to be indoctrinated into its mysteries, ever.

 

Finito on the argumento!

[zornwil]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Hmmm. Hero is Hard?

 

Yeah - if you never passed the 7th grade. Presumably, by then, you can do all of the requisite math with relative ease. If not, you need to go back and hit the books again. The only thing I've found gamers indoctinated from other systems really have a hard time with is reasoning powers from effects and realizing a fire and an ice blast may have the same construct (where their other system spelled them out as separate powers). Once you grasp the abstraction its relatively easy.

 

Oh, what am I droning on about. Lets face it. Hero is VERY VERY VERY HARD. Its just for us elitist hero-philes. No one else is ever allowed to be indoctrinated into its mysteries, ever.

 

Finito on the argumento!

In particular that's an interesting point about "reasoning from effect". I think that you're right, that is something that does throw people at first, particularly once they've actually started to get into the game. As I alluded to earlier, I think most people who are afraid of the math are the ones who didn't get that far. But for those who get past that intimidation factor (regardless of why it exists) this is a more "real" barrier because this is arguably one of HERO's most brilliant points but also where it departs from many (not all) RPGs. Especially the degrees to which it takes it. Yet I don't think you can really appreciate the game until you appreciate this. And as you suggest I don't think it's hard, but it is something that for some people is a learning curve.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

Ah, I see. I offer myself up as an example of how your doomsaying is so much...

"doomsaying?"

 

what doom was i saying?

I thought I was debating someone who would respond to facts, not sparring with a Seenar clone. My mistake.

"Seenar?"

 

???

 

Wait.. no don't enlighten me on this.

I get on average eleven...

 

Tell me, sir... how many new people do you regularly introduce to *any* game system in any given month?

Ok, let me get this straight... your goal is to compare the new recruits/results of yout internet engine thingy to the recruits/results of onr guys personal local RPGing?

 

uhhh... i think its safe to say that most any internet engine setup is going to be more prolific than most any local guys personal effort when just counting heads is the benchmark... frankly, regardless of quality of subject of the internet venue, traffic beyond that of one local guy seems a given. . believe me, i have seen some sites with woefully dreadful content that i was amazed at their traffic, but when you cast a wise wnough net, you get sometimes an astonishing amount of catch.

 

perhaps, and this is just a suggestion, when you want to whip 'em out and see whose is bigger, you should try comparing your internet engine thingy with other internet engine thingies, and not just against "one local GMs". That way, it would look like you were trying to get a meaningful gauge of your "performance."

 

But, to answer your question, to avoid you getting all snippy about dodged questions...

 

i typically run two games at a time. They typically have between three and six players each. They meet three times a month each. They last vbetween 1 and 3 years each typically and for the most part their rosters stay the same throughout their run. i make it a point to try and include a new gamer to each game and usually succeed. The vast majority of my gamers have a wonderful time, it seems, and they come back for more. i have never had a problem getting people, and usually have to turn people away.

 

So, i guess for the comparisons sake between "my local GMing" and your "internet engine thingy", i got about a 0.00 brand new people per week, when rounded off to significant digits.

 

So i guess your internet setup thingy gets more traffic than a single local Gms games.

 

Wow!

 

yup.

 

Ok.

 

Way to go!!

 

When's the celebration party start!?!

 

This, sir, is called "dodging the question".

 

nope... that was called "not answering the question." That whole "not again" was specifically and clearly a subtle and (apparently) hidden hint that i was declining to answer.

 

dodging the question would be to pretend as if i was giving you and answer, and then not actually addressing the question at all in my response.

 

if you check with your dedicated staff, one of them can explain it to you, i am sure.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

"Seenar?"

 

???

 

Wait.. no don't enlighten me on this.

 

Seenar is a poster that Worldmaker spars with down in the Non gaming Discussion Boards. Simple answer.

[Celtic Cowboy]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

The only thing I've found gamers indoctinated from other systems really have a hard time with is reasoning powers from effects and realizing a fire and an ice blast may have the same construct (where their other system spelled them out as separate powers). Once you grasp the abstraction its relatively easy.

 

After recently helping two players new to HERO with characters for a modern horror game, I think the reasoning from effect was the biggest stumbling block I saw.

 

In one of those other games players look at classes and feats, nice and neat little packages. They look at feats that give them bonus's with this or that weapon or some special ability.

 

Besides being nice little plug and play cogs, I think some of these things help inspire a players concept for a character when they've hit that mental blank stage.

 

Now while HERO can design effects to match those feats, want a bonus when using your favorite weapon, just grab some combat levels. While it's far easier if anything to build your character concept in HERO, don't have to wait until 9th level for that feat that ties everything together, if you don't have a concept and some ideas for effects it's a little harder thumbing through the book looking for sparks.

[badger3k]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

After recently helping two players new to HERO with characters for a modern horror game, I think the reasoning from effect was the biggest stumbling block I saw.

 

In one of those other games players look at classes and feats, nice and neat little packages. They look at feats that give them bonus's with this or that weapon or some special ability.

 

Besides being nice little plug and play cogs, I think some of these things help inspire a players concept for a character when they've hit that mental blank stage.

 

Now while HERO can design effects to match those feats, want a bonus when using your favorite weapon, just grab some combat levels. While it's far easier if anything to build your character concept in HERO, don't have to wait until 9th level for that feat that ties everything together, if you don't have a concept and some ideas for effects it's a little harder thumbing through the book looking for sparks.

 

Some gamers prefer to leave the metagame thinking (or maybe metasystem is better) outside their playing experience. Looking at D&D3.5, theres a lot of system guidelines given (although nowhere near as much as in Hero) - for instance, they have damage caps for different level spells, but unless you design your own spells, you don't need to know that. To play Hero, unless you use something like the FH Grimoire, you need to at least be familiar with the mechanics.

 

Some people also want to look at the spells effects (such as range:100', damage 12d6 fire) rather than the mechanics behind them (ie - 12d6 EB (fire), limited range 17", etc). Although if you look at other systems, the mechanics aren't that hard to reason out; although most things are merely general guidelines too - ask anyone who wants to design spells or feats for D&D - you'll get a ton of arguments on how it's over- or under-powered, depending on the person.

 

That said, it is easier for some people to make up an item, for example a sword that does 1d12 damage, additional 1d8 fire damage, and can turn the target to a pillar of charcoal 3/day (will save negates) rather than break down the effects and describe it that way (1 1/2d6 HKA, linked 2d6 EB Fire, linked Transform etc). Some people look at the mechanics of the system and get turned off. I find it easier if I can see how it works, and it's easy to put it in the same terms they are used to.