Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

[Super Squirrel]

In the General Gaming discussion, someone refered to an RPG.net debate over the HERO System rules. If you have ever been to RPG.net you know what the HERO System threads turn into. For those of you who don't it is mostly people saying "math is hard", "character creation is not fun", "creating characters takes time".

 

All I can say is, "What gives?" I'm not a rules expert. Last Saturday, we stopped the game for 15 minutes while we looked up the rules on PRE Attacks and which comes first, normal damage or damage reduction.

 

But when it comes to creating characters. I think it is fun and not as time consuming as people would think. In fact, I could probably build an entire character with only a ~20 point error range without the book at all. 3d6 EB, Armor Piercing, Area of Effect (One Hex) is 30 points. Add on Only works while eating an ice cream and it is now 10 points and costs 3 END.

 

Admittedly, it can be complicated at times. For example one of the people in the area wanted to build a character comprised of anti-matter. She could release anti-matter from her system and destroy a target but took damage in the meantime. She wanted to also be able to use this same power as a Damage Shield. I can't remember the end product but it was something like 150 active points and 60 something real points.

 

I've gone to work with FREd and a notepad of paper and come home with a character or two created. HERO is also the only system I know of that only requires you to have a single book.

 

My chief complaint with HERO is that which all games must face. I don't know all of the rules yet. Beyond that, it is the game I have always been looking for.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Character creation (as in, the chunky parts) is rarely fun, no matter what the system ... coming up with the concept and fleshing it out is the fun part. On the other hand, who cares if the number-crunching is boring? That only takes so long, and you only have to do it once (unless you get your character killed).

 

I do get a unique rush, though, when I manage to put together a particularly tricky power construction ... must be the geek in me.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I've gone to work with FREd and a notepad of paper and come home with a character or two created. HERO is also the only system I know of that only requires you to have a single book.

 

My chief complaint with HERO is that which all games must face. I don't know all of the rules yet. Beyond that, it is the game I have always been looking for.

Dude, you need Sidekickâ„¢ bad!

 

BTW, great new avatar.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I think much of the problem is perceived rather than actual.

 

Regarding time, I've read of tales on these boards of someone taking longer to build a D20 character than a HERO equivalent. I personally have taken two hours trying to get a useable Traveller character (back during the time of the original Little Black Books), compared to a half hour typical of a HERO character (2nd edition Champs).

 

Regarding math, the only thing I know of that HERO uses during character creation that most other systems don't use is division. It's not hard when dividing by whole numbers like 2 or 3, but if your denominator is 4.25 then admittedly it's time to pull out the old calculator. With electronic calculators costing pocket change, not to mention resources like USPD and FHG to eliminate such a huge bulk of math and other work, that's hardly an excuse.

 

So it comes back to perception, going back to the day when HERO was "Mister Sophisticated" for those willing to put a bit of their own creativity into the creation process versus the D&D system of rolling up some stats, buying some equipment, and getting on the way.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Hero _is_ hard. The very thing that makes Hero an attractive system to those that like it is what makes it a hard system. Nothing in Hero is 'given' to you. You have to make decisions and think, in advance, about what you want everything to do.

 

Now, for a tinkerer, that is heaven itself. You don't want vanilla, or any other pre-prepared flavour, you want to come up with the precise flavour yourself.

 

For other people that simply want to tick of a list of options then it is hassle incarnate. "I only want to be able to throw flames from my hands, for God's sake, why are you asking me all these questions!!!"

 

For the Hero enthusiast it is important to know whether the player _wants_ his flames to cause knockback and BODY. It is important to know whether he wants to be able to focus the flames or to easily spread them to damage lots of people, whether he wants the flames to damage everyone in a line or simply the target in the distance. And does it make you tired?? Lots of different cost considerations there...

 

I think we have to understand that not everyone gets a rush from understanding the mechanics behind the powers.

 

There is also the different mechanical resolutions and characteristic uses. Yes, I know, its not huge but it is something that comes up. CV is characteristic/3 while skills are characteristic/5, combat uses the CV with an 11 while skills use the characteristic/5 with a 9. Dice counting is difficult as it is taking two values from the same set of dice rather than just one.

 

Obviously all of these difficulties are relative and you wouldn't be playing the game if you thought they were unnecessary but each little thing adds up in people's minds, 'specially when they've all heard that the system is hard.

 

If you have problems with prospective players then there are two options as I see it. The first is to identify those people you _know_ are tinkerers and show them the level of detail that they can bring to their character to make them different from everyone elses. The second is to hide enough of the mechanics to make it look no more complex than your average D20 character sheet.

 

The secret of selling something to an audience is to give them what they want. Hero allows you to give people exactly what they want - it _is_ more work than other systems but ultimately more satisfying. If you want to make it look easy then cover up all the nuts and bolts and play the game but don't expect people brought up on checklist style games to think that the elegant (detailed) power construction you've provided them with is easier or better than Flame Projection (hands).

 

Doc

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Dude, you need Sidekickâ„¢ bad!

 

BTW, great new avatar.

I suspect getting players who don't house rules everything would be nice too. It doesn't help when they don't bother with knockback rules and then build double knockback into powers.

 

But I do get enjoyment out of building characters... unless it is my wife's character. She can come up with the most complicated powers. I remember when she wanted Weathergirl to be able to create a tornado effect when she spun around in a circle. That was hard to build.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Regarding time' date=' I've read of tales on these boards of someone taking longer to build a D20 character than a HERO equivalent. I personally have taken two hours trying to get a useable Traveller character (back during the time of the original Little Black Books), compared to a half hour typical of a HERO character (2nd edition Champs).[/quote']

 

This is what I mean. It can take lots longer to sort out the D20 character but actual decisions are only what class, what race, what feats and how many ranks in what skills. No real hard thought.

 

For Hero, even when you know the system, it is very much decision after decision after decision - for every power! Once you are in that way of thinking it becomes very easy but if you can't get into that mindset then all you can see is micromanagement that you don't want to do.

 

I love Hero because I can make two fire-based characters that work in vastly different ways instead of both being built round a generic 'fire powers' type selection. Other people prefer the easy decisions - even if it means taking a bit longer poring over the description of each feat.

 

Doc

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Ok, at risk of, well, nothing really... let me try to put it a little more accurately...

 

The math complaints are usually "too much math", not "too hard math". Even a recnet RPGnet thread which referred to "PhD required" was actually about the amount, not the complexity, as things turned on. Most people can do tax forms fine, the addition and subtraction and divisions are fine... but they don't consider it fun and don't want to do it unless they have to. And thats the rub, if someone sees and plays a game which does his game/genre "as well" (in his eyes!!!) without the tax forms from heck HERo math upfront in chargen... he won't see a reason to change.

 

Many hero players, I am one, however, seem to find chargen, yes the number crunching "how do i get this character in under budget" as FUN in and of itself. Naturally, they won't normally "get" the "that much math in chargen is not fun" argument at all.

 

Now, for me, as i primarily GM, the issue is a little different.

 

Complex chargen serves as an impediment to bringing in new players, particularly new players to rpgs in general, as opposed to new players of HERO. People interested in trying rpgs for the first time are usually very good, IMX, at coming up with character ideas, but if going from idea to play is then a complex math process the chance of them sticking with it is slimmer. The more steep the "learning curve" is, the less likely they will take the hike.

 

As such, when i ran HERo for novices, i ended up spending a LOT of time and effort "reimaging" it to not look so complex, to hide the steep learning curve... turning all movement powers into feet, not inches, devising more campaign specific archtypes and such, packages, a magic system that is fairly componentized, etc etc etc...

 

After doing all that work, i managed to reduce the steepness a bit...

 

later tho, when using not as complex chargen systems, ones with built in structure for chargen (classes), i found it was much much easier to get their "idea for character" into play without me needing to be there all over every stage. Amazingly, i found that the new players were not as "gotta be exectly so so"... they never envisioned their character in specific game terms, but in general capability concepts and VERY SPECIFIC history and personality concepts. So, usually, they were fine with a classed character, sometimes asking for a minor tweak (which i am fine with doing) and they were up and playing very very quickly... much quicker and much more enthusiastically than the same or similar people trying it under HERO.

 

So, for me, the "so much math" and less structured chargen of HERo works against me now more than it helps me. It quite frankly, "gets in the way" and the system eats more of my design time than i need a system to do.

 

Now, thats still a trade off. If i believed i was getting something for that investment, I might come down differently. But frankly. IMX, I dont get better balance out of all that math. I don't get better characters (richer more detailed backgrounds and stories?) out of all that math. Matter of fact, i get better characters from the same players when the background and backstory and personality is left off the accounting entirely!

 

So, the first hurdle that HERO has, IMX, is getting people to be willing to "do the work" in the first place. Then, if they do decide to stick with it thru the chargen, it has its second hurdle, showing them that it was worth it, showing them how they are better off.

 

for me, I am not seeing it. I also think that this is kind of the meaning of many/some of those "hero is too hard" (as HERo guys like to paraphrase/ridicule the statements) issues.

[Arthur]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I think several folks here have hit the nail on the head.

 

Hero is a great system - for gamers of a certain temperament.

 

The math is not hard, nor particularly abundant, to me - but I got my degree in physics. To me, doing that math is FUN. I am an anomaly (more accurately, part of a small anomalous group). When I tried introducing Hero to many of my gamer friends, most of them balked. Not because they COULDN'T do the math, but because they didn't find it FUN. They complained that it was like doing homework. To someone who struggled through elementary algebra, Hero is painful.

 

Hero is a little like Linux. Those of us that like Hero (or Linux) are typically the types who want to take things apart and see what makes them go. Note that Windows still has a 98% market share on the desktop. Most people (and by extension, most gamers) don't WANT to know what video chipset they are using, the refresh rate of their monitor, etc. The machine is a black box, and they are not inclined to open the case. They just want Diablo 2 to run.

 

I have a set of Hero books, but could never really find anyone to game with in this city. At cons, the D&D game was jam-packed (I counted over ten people in one game), while I would be in the corner with my rulebooks all alone. Occasionally, someone would come by and talk about the game, but not actually PLAY (had the same problem with GURPS).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

You're preaching to the choir in here ...

 

but,

 

what ticks me off the most about the D20 mongers who tell me Hero "takes to long to make a character" is the fact they will then spend as much, if not more, time "levelling" a D20 character up every three or so sessions as they did making it to begin with.

 

And people have NO excuse on the math thing .. they should have learned that in High School and anyone who tells me "math is hard" just makes me so angry ... they're lucky it's illegal to beat them to death with a baseball bat. it's BASIC MATH. math you should've learned going INTO high school, much less afterwards.

 

Not to mention that a 1.29 and a Wal-Mart get you a calculator you freaking pansies!

 

just

 

but obviously none of you have that problem.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

As a recent HERO convert, I think most of my problems were perception. It just looks intimidating. It took me a while, but after a few times through FRED, it finally "clicked" for me. After that, I couldn't believe I didn't understand it all sooner. It's really not that complicated in the long run. Although, I think powers that modify stats in combat (aid, drain, etc.) are probably going to be a pain in the butt when I finally run a game.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

tesuji, I can completely relate to your problems with getting new players to try HERO for the first time. Some people don't want to do a lot of preparation on their character, they just want to start playing - and there's nothing wrong with that. Folks want to play games to have fun, whatever their idea of "fun" is. The idea that you have to do work in order to be ready to play turned off a lot of newcomers to the system.

 

The new Hero Games, though, has provided us as players and GMs with many new tools to overcome that turn-off, specifically the prebuilt items. I've brought new players into my Champions game, and I can tell you that the UNTIL Superpowers Database has been a godsend. Find out the concept the player wants, run down the laundry list of appropriate Powers (explained in plain English, not just "Heroese"), plug 'em into the character sheet and away you go. I expect The Fantasy HERO Grimoire and Gadgets and Gear would work the same way. Speaking of fantasy, a friend of mine who's started a campaign in HERO swears by all the character Package Deals in FH for her character-class-loving players; another example of "plug and play."

 

IMO Hero Games has been doing a good job of giving us the best of both worlds: all the tools for those of us who enjoy tinkering, and prefab items for those who want to get right to busting heads.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

what ticks me off the most about the D20 mongers who tell me Hero "takes to long to make a character" is the fact they will then spend as much, if not more, time "levelling" a D20 character up every three or so sessions as they did making it to begin with.

Speaking from my experience, this is really not a truism.

 

the people who relish the chargen design game mechanics time, will indeed spend plenty of time working on the character at every level. These are also, IMX with people who play(ed) both systems, who love designing hero characters for the fun of it. How much time they spend outside of chargen on story and background and personality varies.

 

the people for whom the game mechanics design time for the character are not "what they play for", who spend a lot of time building the character in terms of story and personality and background AND who spend as little time as possible fussing with the system stuff, they will level up in minutes and probably spent less than an hour on chargen. On the other hand, they probably produced more detailed and rich background.

 

In my own games, i have both types and plenty in between.

And people have NO excuse on the math thing .. they should have learned that in High School and anyone who tells me "math is hard" just makes me so angry ... they're lucky it's illegal to beat them to death with a baseball bat. it's BASIC MATH. math you should've learned going INTO high school, much less afterwards.

Again, typically the complaint is not, in spite of how hero guys like to portray it, about how "hard" the math is but how much of it there is. People can do tax forms, but don't do it everyday "for fun".

 

Not to mention that a 1.29 and a Wal-Mart get you a calculator you freaking pansies!

 

but obviously none of you have that problem.

 

The math doesn't help me, it gets in the way of bringing new players in, and as such... its not worth doing.

 

For those for whom those parameters are different... their conclusion will be different.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

 

tesuji, I can completely relate to your problems with getting new players to try HERO for the first time. Some people don't want to do a lot of preparation on their character, they just want to start playing - and there's nothing wrong with that.

I will quibble on terminology... replace "preparation on their character" with "preparation on the game mechanics side of their character" and we are talking the same thing.

 

I don't want people to think that we are talking about people who don't want to spend time on character development... many of them provide wonderful backgrounds, stories, personalities, and plot hooks. They just could care less whether "a good fighter" means OCV of 7 or OCV of 9.

 

Folks want to play games to have fun, whatever their idea of "fun" is. The idea that you have to do work in order to be ready to play turned off a lot of newcomers to the system.

Obviously, for each player, how much is "too much work" will vary.

 

Also, if the chargen process is enjoyable, it wont seem as "workish." if it is flavorful and by its nature adds to the immersion in genre or sparks new ideas, the chargen will seem less work. if its a mathematical build of "generic" elements that only get genre and flavor when the PC adds them... you lose that.

 

I have seen this "flavor over generic blocks" tell itself dramatically watching the same people generate characters in different systems... where from HERO i get really complex point buy questions but when in other games i here warm chuckles and "wow, just like in the comics" or "in the movies."

 

A feat called "Thats impossible!" which allows an "ace" to "defy the laws of physics in a dramatic way once per session while piloting a ship" will (and did) reach out and grab the player who is envisioning a Han solo like pilot for a scifi game... whereas fguring out whether or not to buy extra skill levels or higher dex to raise his pilot rolls won't.

 

The new Hero Games, though, has provided us as players and GMs with many new tools to overcome that turn-off, specifically the prebuilt items. I've brought new players into my Champions game, and I can tell you that the UNTIL Superpowers Database has been a godsend. Find out the concept the player wants, run down the laundry list of appropriate Powers (explained in plain English, not just "Heroese"), plug 'em into the character sheet and away you go. I expect The Fantasy HERO Grimoire and Gadgets and Gear would work the same way. Speaking of fantasy, a friend of mine who's started a campaign in HERO swears by all the character Package Deals in FH for her character-class-loving players; another example of "plug and play."

Like i said, back when i did this, i spent a lot of my effort on streamlining and bevelling down the steep learning curve. I can tell you flat out, the ability to point them to several more books that, if they buy them and go thru their rather huge selection of options, will not, IMX, solve the problem. Matter of fact, when i start telling them the huge black book is not enough, they should also get these others... when they start looking thru the long lists... it will drive them away.

 

IMO Hero Games has been doing a good job of giving us the best of both worlds: all the tools for those of us who enjoy tinkering, and prefab items for those who want to get right to busting heads.

 

I think HERO is doing a great job of marketting to its core audience in HERO5.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I will credit that time saving always goes to d20... except in one circumstance.

 

I have a character who is 379 points from a previous campaign.

I join a game and the GM says I need to drop 29 points. This is much easier to do than having a level 13 character and being asked to drop it to level 10 and toss some of my magic items in a d20 game.

[drnuncheon]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I don't care about character creation time, honestly - that's all offline. The HERO speed problems that drive me bugnuts are the ones that happen during play: the Speed Chart, figuring out the best allocation of levels/Multipowers/VPPs, multi-power attacks - heck, even figuring to-hits in HERO takes longer than in d20. (It's negligible for one roll but when you're making a bunch of them it adds up...)

 

J

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

It's true that HERO has a steep learning curve compared to other game systems, but that's mainly because the rules for practically everything are all in one book. I think many other RPG systems are just as rules heavy, but they tend to spread the rules for different types of abilities or situations over several supplements. They include only what's strictly necessary to play the game in the core rulebook. This way, the rules seem easier to learn because you get to absorb them in bite-sized chunks.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Speaking from my experience, this is really not a truism.

 

the people who relish the chargen design game mechanics time, will indeed spend plenty of time working on the character at every level. These are also, IMX with people who play(ed) both systems, who love designing hero characters for the fun of it. How much time they spend outside of chargen on story and background and personality varies.

 

the people for whom the game mechanics design time for the character are not "what they play for", who spend a lot of time building the character in terms of story and personality and background AND who spend as little time as possible fussing with the system stuff, they will level up in minutes and probably spent less than an hour on chargen. On the other hand, they probably produced more detailed and rich background.

 

that's not what I was getting at. Spend as long as you want on char-gen, either background or mechanically. What I don't like is when I get the D20 player who spends an hour "optimizing" his character, another thirty-sixty minutes on background, and when he levels up will spend upwards of 45 minutes choosing "just the right" stuff. And then tells me he doens't want to play a HERO game because char-gen takes to long.

 

I run into a lot of these people. They are not worth my time because they are what I call "non-human scum taking up space."

 

If you don't like HERO fine, don't like it. I don't like D20. There's no reason I can't or won't play it, I just don't like it. It's the need to give an excuse, or reason if you like that justification better, for not doing something else.

 

People who give excuses are weak.

 

Again, typically the complaint is not, in spite of how hero guys like to portray it, about how "hard" the math is but how much of it there is. People can do tax forms, but don't do it everyday "for fun".

 

The math doesn't help me, it gets in the way of bringing new players in, and as such... its not worth doing.

 

For those for whom those parameters are different... their conclusion will be different.

 

I don't have much to say against the "there's a lot of math" arguement, since people also find wonderful ways to cut back on speaking words as well.... I guess many people just can't be bothered. And really, that doesn't bother so much either because I honestly don't want to play with those who can't be bothered with it all. So, I'll chalk all the math up to the entry fee for those who don't mind a bit of work before a lot of fun.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I will credit that time saving always goes to d20... except in one circumstance.

 

I have a character who is 379 points from a previous campaign.

I join a game and the GM says I need to drop 29 points. This is much easier to do than having a level 13 character and being asked to drop it to level 10 and toss some of my magic items in a d20 game.

 

granted, but i can count the number of times i have ported a character from one game to play in another, or have allowed/encouraged it in my players, on no hands. :-)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I will quibble on terminology... replace "preparation on their character" with "preparation on the game mechanics side of their character" and we are talking the same thing.

 

I don't want people to think that we are talking about people who don't want to spend time on character development... many of them provide wonderful backgrounds, stories, personalities, and plot hooks. They just could care less whether "a good fighter" means OCV of 7 or OCV of 9.

 

Fair enough.

 

Obviously, for each player, how much is "too much work" will vary.

 

Also, if the chargen process is enjoyable, it wont seem as "workish." if it is flavorful and by its nature adds to the immersion in genre or sparks new ideas, the chargen will seem less work. if its a mathematical build of "generic" elements that only get genre and flavor when the PC adds them... you lose that.

 

I have seen this "flavor over generic blocks" tell itself dramatically watching the same people generate characters in different systems... where from HERO i get really complex point buy questions but when in other games i here warm chuckles and "wow, just like in the comics" or "in the movies."

 

A feat called "Thats impossible!" which allows an "ace" to "defy the laws of physics in a dramatic way once per session while piloting a ship" will (and did) reach out and grab the player who is envisioning a Han solo like pilot for a scifi game... whereas fguring out whether or not to buy extra skill levels or higher dex to raise his pilot rolls won't.

 

I see your point, although I find that describing how "buying up your Piloting Skill roll will enable to do nearly impossible feats" helps a lot. Similarly, the various ways the different Luck mechanics in 5E can be presented to aid in accomplishing the miraculous can also bring that "Wow!" sense of wonderment to a player.

 

In my experience, if a GM can describe what happens in a game with color and enthusiasm, he can do the same with a game mechanic - if he feels that way about it himself.

 

Like i said, back when i did this, i spent a lot of my effort on streamlining and bevelling down the steep learning curve. I can tell you flat out, the ability to point them to several more books that, if they buy them and go thru their rather huge selection of options, will not, IMX, solve the problem. Matter of fact, when i start telling them the huge black book is not enough, they should also get these others... when they start looking thru the long lists... it will drive them away.

 

Long lists never stopped the D&D players that I know from hunting through Spell Lists or lists of Feats. Most of them seem to treat it like a scavenger hunt.

 

I should say, though, that I haven't expected any of my players to buy particular books. Most of the supplements to FREd I buy myself and let the players read the relevant parts, and I've used them with new players building their first characters; although my group agreed to pool our resources to buy the USPD and Ultimate Martial Artist to use as a common group reference. Several players were so impressed with them, they later bought their own copies anyway.

 

I think HERO is doing a great job of marketting to its core audience in HERO5.

 

I see quite a few new players coming to HERO games in my circle, and coming here to the discussion boards, especially since Sidekick came out, so based on my experience I would say that they've broadened their marketting fairly effectively. Experience is subjective, though, so we may have to respectfully agree to disagree.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

that's not what I was getting at. Spend as long as you want on char-gen, either background or mechanically. What I don't like is when I get the D20 player who spends an hour "optimizing" his character, another thirty-sixty minutes on background, and when he levels up will spend upwards of 45 minutes choosing "just the right" stuff. And then tells me he doens't want to play a HERO game because char-gen takes to long.

Well, all i can say is that those type of people who spend all that time on D20 chargen might well spend more on HERO. Maybe it a difference of days vs week, but maybe for them HERO is even longer.

 

I run into a lot of these people. They are not worth my time because they are what I call "non-human scum taking up space."

Not much to say tho that.

If you don't like HERO fine, don't like it. I don't like D20. There's no reason I can't or won't play it, I just don't like it. It's the need to give an excuse, or reason if you like that justification better, for not doing something else.

For some people, they like having reasons as to why they make decisions, or maybe articulating them as more in dpeth than "i just don't like it." I, for one, cited some of the issue as to why HERO is not a good fit for my gaming needs right now, a few posts back.

 

Saying "i just don't like it" doesn't help a conversation or understanding. Saying " i don't like this and that and here is why its a bad fit for me" provides a little more info, hopefully useful.

People who give excuses are weak.

People who inform you of the why's and wherefores used to arrive at their conclusion are sometimes more helpful.

I don't have much to say against the "there's a lot of math" arguement, since people also find wonderful ways to cut back on speaking words as well.... I guess many people just can't be bothered. And really, that doesn't bother so much either because I honestly don't want to play with those who can't be bothered with it all. So, I'll chalk all the math up to the entry fee for those who don't mind a bit of work before a lot of fun.

 

I have had some great games with people who did not want that system "work", who much preferred system "play". So, i can definitely say that had i taken the attidue of not wanting to play with them unless they sucked it up... i would have missed some wonderful times and i would have been the lesser for it.

 

YMMV

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

First off let me say that I have not taken a 'serious' look at a D&D book since 2nd edition.

 

With that said, and my breif glimpses at the 'feats' rules, HERO still has a much easier method of handling XP progression once the characters are created. And of course that is the real trick now.

 

Yes, creating the exact set of abilities within point constraints can be a challenge. But this is time well spent. By working out how you as a player want your character to begin as well as to improve with experience via a 1 on 1 with the GM you eliminate much of the cumbersome details of XP advancement of other 'level' based systems.

 

GM "ok Bob, 'Rapid-Reactor' did a good job in this adventure. I am giving him a 1 point 'AF city' for the time spent searching for the hostages and 3 points to spend as you like

within reason"

Bob "Cool, thanks!"

 

Bob now can choose to buy a 3 point skill, improve a characteristic or two or save up for improving or buying a new power. No table to consult. WOW! isn't that easy?

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

[/indent]Bob now can choose to buy a 3 point skill, improve a characteristic or two or save up for improving or buying a new power. No table to consult. WOW! isn't that easy?

 

Are you assuming the player has the life support costs memorized, and so does not need to look them up?

Or that he has all the martial arts maneuver costs memorized, and so doesn't need their list?

or that he has memorized all the enhanced senses costs?

 

There are a lot of things even i would need to "look up" if i wanted to consider my options for spending even 3 cp.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

This is mostly directed at the discussion with Testuji, no need to quote his last post.

 

There are reasons, and then there are excuses.

 

I don't like D20: Why? "I don't think class based systems are as fun."

 

I don't like Hero: Why? "there's a lot of math."

 

 

See the difference? the first is a preference based on gameplay. The second is little more than a cop-out to be, IMO, lazy.

 

The first answer is a REASON ... it's an actual preference of style. The second answer is an EXCUSE, it sounds like it should be followed by "and my mommy didn't pay enough attention to me as a kid."

 

The first guy may be talked into a session of D20, maybe not. The answer doesn't find fault with the game system as to why they won't play.

 

The second guy there sounds like he just doesn't want to try anything new. That answer actually blames the game system for the reason not to play. That's an excuse to quite - it's like blaming the hammer because the screw won't go in.

 

[incidentally, the first answer is my reason for not liking D20, I have played, and probably will play again, D20 games.]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Are you assuming the player has the life support costs memorized, and so does not need to look them up?

Or that he has all the martial arts maneuver costs memorized, and so doesn't need their list?

or that he has memorized all the enhanced senses costs?

 

There are a lot of things even i would need to "look up" if i wanted to consider my options for spending even 3 cp.

 

Select the one you like:

 

(a) Yes. And I am assuming the d20 player has the requirements for all prestige classes, level bonuses for each class, skills and feats all memorized as well.

 

( No. And I am assuming the d20 player does not have the requirements for all prestige classes, level bonuses for each class, skills and feats all memorized as well.

 

I will give d20 t6he nod in one respect, though. You can write up your "next level" character in advance and have that sheet ready to go. Since you don't know how much xp your Hero character will get at any one time, it's tough to prepare the updated character sheet in advance.