Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Or perhaps just going out to a restaurant instead of cooking it yourself. After all' date=' it lets you get to the eating with a whole lot less effort. 'Fast food' implies that it's inferior, and there are a number of great D&D games out there, as well as some crummy HERO games. [/quote']

 

I concede to your superior analogy!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Do you mean "the class called fighter"? if so, i dont get your point. Once you chose to take the basic set of traits, why complain that you got them?

 

If you mean some character who can be described as a fighter, then you need to choose the class appropriate to your concept. I have seen plenty of "fighters" who did not take the "fighter" class at all, because it did not fit their concept.

 

If your particular flavor is not exactly matched, thats where the suggestions and rules for customizing classes come in. Speak to your GM.

 

But, decisions were not made "for you". You make the decisions when you choose to represent your character with a given class. The rest is just setting defined rationale.

 

if you mean bard as "a guy who plays music and wanders around telling stories", then that character can be built using a number of classes. if your vision of him is "no magic" then it would seem rather silly to try and represent him with a magic using class.

 

If you mean by bard "a guy who does everything the bard class does but with no magic"... see the last sentence above, but if you persist, talk to your GM about customizing the class to fit your character as described in the PHb and DMG. There were, from what i saw on the web, plenty of magic-less rangers being devised and used.

 

You've proven my point on why I don't like classes BTW.

 

Why should I customize and/or alter the base set of rules to get what I want? From that point of view you've already decided that the rules as presented aren't what you want.

 

What I dislike about Class Based is you choose one thing and all other options are either not available or cost double.

 

In the non-class based system all options are open to all, you merely choose which ones you want - limited only by genre. You can make so many choices but which option you choose (be it a combat maneuver, skill, stat, spell, Talent/Feat, Perk, or anything else) is equal for everyone.

 

If I choose to be a "figher" class if I want a bit of flavor and add something else it either costs me double or I have to wait to Level Up and choose another Class .. the whole thing is just cookie cutter.

 

That's the part I don't like.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

 

You've proven my point on why I don't like classes BTW.

 

Why should I customize and/or alter the base set of rules to get what I want? From that point of view you've already decided that the rules as presented aren't what you want.

For the same reason there are genre books, subgenre info, campaign source books and the like for HERO... even when you go for a relatively focused setting, any given product is not going to be exactly what you want. The designers did not know your campaign, your players, your PCs et al when they built the rules.

 

to expect an exact fit, is rather optimistic.

 

On the other hand, as all those HERO supolements are indicative of, that does not necessarily mean giving nothing but core rules and making everything setting the purview of the Gm to create from scratch on his own. Just as the HERO designers recognize that books full of gadgets, books full of pre-buiult super-powers, and books rife with package deals and campaigns and NPCs and monsters will be helpful, the makers of D20 products seem to realize thos things are going to be helpful.

 

None of them expect exact fits... but they figure the bits they give are helpful.

 

What I dislike about Class Based is you choose one thing and all other options are either not available or cost double.

Which sets a basis of structure... someone with no previosu magical aptitude (say a fighter class character with nothing in background to indicate prior expertise or experience in that area)... will be slower (double skill cost) at learning things that are part of the background of the mage... learning magic.

 

its akin to saying the fact that it takes a plumber with a high school education longer to get up to speed on differential calculus than it does a college kid with advance math studies is somehow unbelievable.

 

 

 

In the non-class based system all options are open to all, you merely choose which ones you want - limited only by genre. You can make so many choices but which option you choose (be it a combat maneuver, skill, stat, spell, Talent/Feat, Perk, or anything else) is equal for everyone.

For me, such a notion is rather silly. I think it should be appropriate for background to matter. Picking up something totally new ought to be harder IN SOME CASES than continuing in something you know.

 

making all the traits cost identically regardless of considerations of background seems very cookie cutter to me. Having differences between characters "purchase" and a set of dynamic balances based on backgrounds seems less cookie cutter, not more.

 

If I choose to be a "figher" class if I want a bit of flavor and add something else it either costs me double or I have to wait to Level Up and choose another Class .. the whole thing is just cookie cutter.

or, you speak to your GM about using the options for class customization to help make the "generic provided class" more in line with your character's background. So your character's mother was a mage so you picked up a little knowledge of spells along the way stting at her knee? Ok so your Gm swaps out some of the "fighter" base skills for knowledge arcana or alchemy, so they are now class skills. or maybe you spend a feat on "talented" or "cosmopolitan" or whatever the "take a cross class skill as a class skill " feat is in your particular d20 game de jour.

 

there is nothing making the classes a straightjacket any more than the HERO rules make it necessary to use all of them with no GM interaction. Just like a Gm can say in HERo... "mind control is not available for this campaign and we are not using hit locations" the D20 Gm can tailor the classes to fit his game and his PC needs.

 

That's the part I don't like.

 

Thats cool. Perhaps a brief stint with a less restrictive gm at least give you the notion of how it doesn't have to be and isn't built to be that bad.

[Spence]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Hello again, its been a while since I posted and I've been out of circulation till now. Here is my two cents on the issue. I really don't find either system harder than the other. with Fred it is hard on your personal ability to create. D20 it places the difficulty on your ability to remember where all the "rules are written".

 

Up thread there were several comments on how some gamers like classes (and etc) because they can just grab a concept and go. The a few years back I had some D&D types try FantHero. I "created" several "character classes" and made some "class ability charts" letting them spend 30 points to "customize" the character. The hardest part was "rolling characteristics". The character sheet I gave them was just final stats, with my copy having all the numbers. It turned out to be a great game. They weren't bothered with "details". Later on after a few sessions our theif commented he wished he would level up after failing to pick a lock again.

 

Thief: Damn, I wish I would level up so my lockpick skill would be better.

Me: Well you don't have to wait to level up (read: buy Thief Package Deal Level 2), you can spend some of your experience directly on skills.

Thief: Really?

Me: Yep.

Thief: Cool, I want to do that.

Five minutes later......

Fighter: Hey, if the thief can do it, can I raise my combat skill?

Me: Why yes, yes you can

 

After a few more sessions the players elected to redesign their characters without the "useless" class skills. In the end they were completely converted.

[Blue]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

One thing I've always observed about systems (and this is just in general): The more ways you give someone to do something, the more fun it is to play but the harder it is to make a character.

 

While we all know Hero inside and out, it's fairly difficult to make a character the first time while you figure out how to simulate something. And when you discover there are a half dozen ways of doing that effect, then you've got to scramble a little more.

 

But later on when you're playing and you and the guy across from you don't have the same power but have similar special effects, you feel more special.

 

Everything in D20, if you don't buy the extra non-core books, seems to be relatively the same.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I'm a little out of touch with current D&D rules so please forgive me if this doesn't seem accurate now. However, I played D&D in all it's incarnations right up until 3.0 when I just got tired of it.

 

One of the things that occurred to me when I saw D&D 3.0 was that D&D always tries to make rules that let you do whatever it is you want to do. If someone couldn't do something before (as was often the case in earlier editions), they created rules, tables and whatnot to allow it to happen.

 

What Hero System did (in my opinion), was to create a set of rules that let the individual decide how to do what s/he wanted. The GM can mediate and moderate, of course, but the rules stand firm whether you play a mage, a fighter, a superhero, a detective, a journalist, an explorer, an alien...

 

...well, you get the point.

 

Hero System rules are neither more nor less complex than D&D rules, IMHO, but they approach the problem from two different sides. I think Hero System rules are much more appropriate to my style of gaming.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Thats cool. Perhaps a brief stint with a less restrictive gm at least give you the notion of how it doesn't have to be and isn't built to be that bad.

 

My GM is actually non-restrictive to a fault sometimes...

 

Let's break it down this way...

 

In DnD if I want something slightly different than the 'norm' presented in the rulebook I must change the rulebook-presented "class" in question.

 

In HERO if I want something slightly different than the perceived 'norm' I don't have to change any rules at all. I simply do it.

 

THAT'S what i don't like... I don't want to have to reconstruct the presented method to fit my idea. Hero doesn't give preconstructed ideas in the base book rules (genre books are entirely different) it may give suggestions, but they can be ignored without changing the presented rules/methods.

 

I'm starting repeat myself. Telling my I can "customize" by altering the class as presented will simply make me wonder why I doled out $30 in the first place. Why not just make up all your own stuff at that point and forget even buying the book? And then what happens when you go out in public and people just go "that's not how it's presented in the rules, so you can't do that" where with Hero as long as you fit the point requirements and fit genre you're cool no matter WHAT you do.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

In DnD if I want something slightly different than the 'norm' presented in the rulebook I must change the rulebook-presented "class" in question.

 

In HERO if I want something slightly different than the perceived 'norm' I don't have to change any rules at all. I simply do it.

Ok, but there is an important difference...

 

In DND the thing you are changing is a setting archtype which is provided for you. The class is a part of the setting info.

 

In HERO, the reason you don't have to change the setting info is... there is none. You have to create it all from scratch.

 

IF you buy the HERo genre stuff ot the GM designs setting info and restriuctions, and you want to do something different as a player, you then have to go to the GM and get his permission etc... just like in DND.

 

The fact that D20 games typically provide setting info is not going to make it harder for you to do your thing than it would be in a HERo game where the Gm created all his setting info from scratch... in both cases, to go different from what was provided requires interaction with GM.

 

You are comparing "HERO core rules with no setting" to "a given d20 game's setting info" (classes) and reaching the conclusion that the d20 one is more restrictive... thats a "duh huh!".

 

But if you compare it to a given setting set in HERo, say for instance, a champions game where the Gm decides to use (as **some** of his restrictions) the standard campaign breakdown, if you wanted a character with a 16 dice attack, you would have to go to the GM.

THAT'S what i don't like... I don't want to have to reconstruct the presented method to fit my idea. Hero doesn't give preconstructed ideas in the base book rules (genre books are entirely different) it may give suggestions, but they can be ignored without changing the presented rules/methods.

OK, so, in D20, you just have to go HERo on it.

 

Cut out all those classes, gods, et al from the PHB. maybe cut out spells too.

 

Now you are at the same place you are in hero... core rules and no setting preconceptions. Now, you can build all the things the way you like.

 

I dont think you have gotten better by doing so, but its still cheaper. :-)

 

Seriously... D20 games are, all i think, setting specific games. DND is a certain type of fantasy. Midnight is another. Arcana Unearthed is another. Traveller t20 is a scifi. Stargate is another. Star Wars is even another.

 

What you seem to be doing is comparing a setting game, a GENREic one, to a GENERIC one and finding fault that the setting specific game is not as unprepared, has more preconceptions already built fitting its genre, than the core rules of a GENERIC game.

 

 

I'm starting repeat myself. Telling my I can "customize" by altering the class as presented will simply make me wonder why I doled out $30 in the first place. Why not just make up all your own stuff at that point and forget even buying the book?

The reason to buy a setting specific or GENREic game is that you want to roleplay in a genre something like that which is presented. If you want a game that is NOTHING like it, so that you cannot use any of the info there, then you bought the wrong book.

 

Really, why do you think HERo is putting out genre books and campaign books like they are? Because they understand that some people do not want to build everything from scratch. They understand that setting sells too. (Well, it seems Star HERO line might be an exception, but in general.)

And then what happens when you go out in public and people just go "that's not how it's presented in the rules, so you can't do that" where with Hero as long as you fit the point requirements and fit genre you're cool no matter WHAT you do.

 

I really have never had public outcry with mobs armed with flaming pitchforks chasing me toward windmills over my roleplaying style being so abberant... :-)

 

I really gotta say, if you have a problem with roleplaying in public, don't roleplay in public. :-)

 

That said... whether it was with DND, Traveller, HERo or whatever, every single time i start a game... whether public or private, with new people i always need to go over the campaign rules, some of which will be house rules, some of which will be more broad restrictions for genre, and so forth.

 

I need LESS of these when running a GENREic game, like traveller or DND or even stargate, because the GAME already covered many of the genre issues in its basic rulebook. I don't need to tell my DND guys that laser satellites are inappropriate because the rulebook already showed them plenty of whats appropriate, equipment lists and what not. I do not needto tell my stargate guys that magic spells are inappropriate, because the rulebook already covered that by example if nothing else.

 

For HERo, i have to do all that myself.

 

What you see as "not having to change" i see as "having to build." More work for me, not less.

 

YMMV.

 

Simply put, yes, D20 games are setting games. They are GENREic games. That means they will provide you with setting specific info, or at least genre specific info that you can use. If you want to change it to suit your game, you can. if none of it is useful, you bought the wrong book.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I am a gaming junkie. I play all sorts of different systems. The only one I wont touch is GURPS. That relates to the fact that HERO does a better job at the points build and the premise of easy dying turns me off on the system.

 

As to a D20 v. HERO debate: I really can't see why there is a discussion. They are two different games based on wholely different ideals.

 

HERO wants point granularity and accountability. Points paid for abilities

 

d20 wants balance. ECL=ECL

 

The idea that one is better or less confusing is wrong. What d20 has going for is a massive franchise and legions of fans. HERO has a relatively small core of people that love the game and all its permutations.

 

With the addition of SIDEKICK, HERO is significantly less complex than its main rules. I do think that SK should be a freebie designed to lure them in to the fold, but that is just me.

 

As to the customizability of d20 v. HERO, I have found d20 IMMENSELY configurable, but I have put alot of thought into the system and love it to death. HERO is complex, but only on the surface. It is actually very simple once the Character Gen is completed. At the height of its complexity it is no worse than designing a Half-Demon Old Red Dragon with 2 Fighter Levels and 3 Sorceror. Most HERO Characters are about as hard as building a 3rd level DnD PC.

 

For Hard I would suggest Space Opera or Traveller.

 

Hawksmoor

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Sigh.

 

I don't really want to hear how "customizable" D20 is..

 

D20:

Buy Ruleset, Read Rules, Decide Rules need to be changed, Change Rules, Create Character, Create Setting, Play.

 

Hero:

Buy Ruleset, Read Rules, Create Character, Create Setting, Play.

 

anything is customizable (even the dreaded GURPS.. yick) when you get down to it. I'd just rather spend less time customizing and changing and more time creating and playing.

 

D20 is a fine game, I just don't like being told that I can't buy a skill, or a skill costs twice as much when i've already got a meager supply of points to begin with.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

I'd just rather spend less time customizing and changing and more time creating and playing.

 

It's funny that D20 people would say the same about HERO.

 

D20 is a fine game' date=' I just don't like being told that I can't buy a skill, or a skill costs twice as much when i've already got a meager supply of points to begin with.[/quote']

 

I think you're putting barriers in the way of appreciating the game. D20 people do the same with HERO, they find excuses not to like it and the whole skill thing seems to be a similar response.

 

When you play any game you have to approach it 'as is' rather than as you'd like it to be. Most games are enjoyable when taken on their own terms. Preferences come in to favourite systems but I reckon that, with my gaming group, I could play, and enjoy, any system - even Vampire...

 

 

Doc

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

OK, so, in D20, you just have to go HERo on it.

 

Cut out all those classes, gods, et al from the PHB. maybe cut out spells too.

 

Now you are at the same place you are in hero... core rules and no setting preconceptions. Now, you can build all the things the way you like.

 

I can see what you say in your general argument there Tesuji, and agree with you that the setting material is hardcoded into whichever version of d20 you are using, so that Hawksmoor's argument is a little apples to Oranges... but to extend your analogy above to be fairly correct, the D20 core rules that you strip it down to would have to have a formalised way to make classes balanced, a structured way to build spells and assign levels to them, a formal way to figure the balance out on feats, a balanced way to build monsters (the last I know basically exists). But those things do not exist in d20, whereas in HERO you do. That, to me, is really the difference.

 

And as someone who builds every world from the ground up from scratch no matter what system I play, HERO is a better fit for me- I'd do the same amount of mechanical work in HERO or D20. In HERO I build it using the rules, in d20 I would scour the books for the classes, feats ect that I want in my world, and then have to rebuild them to make them fit my vision. And I think that is Hawksmoor's problem (and you can correct me if I am misreading this Hawksmoor)- in d20 (especially in D&D) what you do has to fit the designers vision- it's hardcoded into the rules, whereas in HERO it just has to fit the GM's vision. And you talk to him about what is and isn't allowed, to try and get your vision playable. In d20 (D&D) you have to change the rules themselves- a different animal.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

And as someone who builds every world from the ground up from scratch no matter what system I play' date=' HERO is a better fit for me- I'd do the same amount of mechanical work in HERO or D20.[/quote']

 

The magic words I think! You have decided what you are going to do and what system best fits that for you. I would wager that most people don't build their worlds from scratch - or not in the detail you imply.

 

As such you make a rational decision that HERO better fits building the infrastructure of your world from the ground up.

 

If you can live with basic assumptions made in a D20 setting then it would be quicker and easier to adopt those wholesale.

 

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

When I do play D20, and I do play it with some regularity, I play within the confines of the system.

 

I don't see one system as "better" than the other. I do see Hero as giving me a little more free reign creativley, though it requires a little extra work.

 

I DON'T see the class system or their method of skill/feats as a reason not to play D20 - they work fine for D20.

 

What my original point was is that many D20 (yes - I'm picking on them right now, I have far to much contact with the D20 Is The Best crowd) players won't play Hero because "of the math" where most Hero players will prefer not to play D20 because it lacks the overall flexibility of creativity that Hero does - but will probably play the game anyway.

 

My reason for not playing D20 is I don't really like it. Many reasons given for not playing Hero are that they simply can't do it (usually that refers to the math, sometimes to figuring out how to build Spells/Powers/Tech/Etc).

 

Which is selling yourself short and an excuse not to try something.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

I can see what you say in your general argument there Tesuji, and agree with you that the setting material is hardcoded into whichever version of d20 you are using, so that Hawksmoor's argument is a little apples to Oranges... but to extend your analogy above to be fairly correct, the D20 core rules that you strip it down to would have to have a formalised way to make classes balanced, a structured way to build spells and assign levels to them, a formal way to figure the balance out on feats, a balanced way to build monsters (the last I know basically exists). But those things do not exist in d20, whereas in HERO you do. That, to me, is really the difference.

Actually, to be precise, you do not HAVE TO have formalized, or maybe more precisely "formula-ized", method fof erach of these at all. Im fact, when i have seen "formalized" class balance creations processes, they have been by my eye way off base.

 

What you need is the ability to compare the classes in reasonable consideration... and that final stage may well be nothing more than your own calibrated eyeball.

And as someone who builds every world from the ground up from scratch no matter what system I play, HERO is a better fit for me-

I have almost never created the entire world setting from the ground up. i could always find some sourcebook or rulebook that got a lot of it done for me. Even when i played HERo, i used a lot of the champions universe stuff.

 

Now, i am talking about "in broad strokes." My game would have most of the time a GAIA set of eco villains and a GRAB set and the names and decriptions would be similar... but i never once used a statted NPC as written... i always rewrote their stats to fit better my story, my PC's particular challenges and the like.

I'd do the same amount of mechanical work in HERO or D20. In HERO I build it using the rules, in d20 I would scour the books for the classes, feats ect that I want in my world, and then have to rebuild them to make them fit my vision.

I do the same amount of work... because its limited by my available time.

 

If i have to spend a lot of time on the world mechanics, the build it all from scrathc hero, i will spend less time, have less time to spend, on my plots, stories, character plot seeds and cool NPCs.

 

With my DND game three years ago, i had to spend very little time on world mechanics, and spent all my prep time on PC related and story related things. That consisted to be true thru its entire 3 year run. Matter of fact, as it progressed, i spent even less time on things like NPC stats, as i had a growing set of things I had already statted to draw from as base.

 

When i did HERo, i tended to spend, needed to spend, more time on the mechanical side of things.

 

Right now, if i want different fantasy i have midnight and UA to use, thats skipping the myriad "slightly-different-than-dnd ones out there. I know the vast majority of my campaign setting could be taken from either of these without need for any determined work from me.\

 

Sci-Fi i have traveller and Stargate.

 

Stargate is a good example... i was able to use their classes with only minor tweaks but i disliked the damage system. So i REPLACED THE ENTIRE DAMAGE SYSTEM with another D20 type (damage save modified) and that still took very little time. In the meantime, both my players and I benefitted from the majority of the book.

 

So, it boils down to, with any D20 product i have used to run a campaign, i saved myself a lot of work off of building every nut and bolt and instead spent that time on stuff more focused on the players, the story and the game.

 

As i have already said... if you gain NOTHING from the D20 sourcebook for your game... you clearly bought the wrong book. :-)

And I think that is Hawksmoor's problem (and you can correct me if I am misreading this Hawksmoor)- in d20 (especially in D&D) what you do has to fit the designers vision- it's hardcoded into the rules, whereas in HERO it just has to fit the GM's vision. And you talk to him about what is and isn't allowed, to try and get your vision playable. In d20 (D&D) you have to change the rules themselves- a different animal.

 

In d20, there may well be setting rules you need to change, if your setting will be different.

 

In HERO, core rules, there wont be any of those setting rules that need to be changed.

 

A given d20 product is like a tall glass of ice cold pepsi. if pepsi is your favorite, its great. if pepsi is OK, then you at least get something out of it. If you absolutely did not like pepsi, you bought the wrong soda.

 

HERO, on the other hand, is an empty glass with no ice and no beverage but instructions on making ice and making beverages.

 

Use of pepsi is not intended to infringe on any trademarks or copyrights. I am in no way financially affiliated with pepsico or any of its subsidiaries.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

A given d20 product is like a tall glass of ice cold pepsi. if pepsi is your favorite, its great. if pepsi is OK, then you at least get something out of it. If you absolutely did not like pepsi, you bought the wrong soda.

 

HERO, on the other hand, is an empty glass with no ice and no beverage but instructions on making ice and making beverages.

 

Use of pepsi is not intended to infringe on any trademarks or copyrights. I am in no way financially affiliated with pepsico or any of its subsidiaries.

 

Good call. To extend your anology, when it comes to gaming, I have never liked any storebought pop, I always have to either brew my own, or do the fountain drink mix thing and add three or more drinks together. I can drink the Pepsi on an occasional basis, but not long term as my standard drink. A matter of personal taste.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

What my original point was is that many D20 (yes - I'm picking on them right now, I have far to much contact with the D20 Is The Best crowd)

I find more d20 players who wont play HERo than i find HERo players who wont play HERo... but then... there are more d20 players, so thats to be expected.

players won't play Hero because "of the math" where most

I find that a qualitative judgement and dont see a reason to be dismissive of it. Some people enjoy the math and the chargen consturction (i am one!) and some do not.

Hero players will prefer not to play D20 because it lacks the overall flexibility of creativity that Hero does - but will probably play the game anyway.

I dont find there to be any significant difference percentage wise of HERO guys being more or less "system purists". However, it is usually easier for people to stay "system purists" in D20 because there is so much out there...

 

I imagine far greater percentages of HERo players have been unable to find enough players for a HERO game than d20 players have been unable to find enough players for theirs... so the d20 players just simply dont have to compromise as much.

My reason for not playing D20 is I don't really like it. Many reasons given for not playing Hero are that they simply can't do it (usually that refers to the math, sometimes to figuring out how to build Spells/Powers/Tech/Etc).

I have never had anyone tell me they could not do the math. I have had plenty tell me they did not want to or would not... they simply dont enjoy it.

 

the closest to "cannot do" was in reference to time required. They thought about running a hero game but did noit have the time to do everything from scratch, go thru all the math builds and so forth... so they grabbed another system, made the necessary tweaks, and got a game running in short order.

 

Dsigning a game, to be sure, is fun. But there is something to be said for getting round to the running too. i know several guys, some hero, who have desgined more games that i can shake a stick at, but somehow never quite get beyond designing.

Which is selling yourself short and an excuse not to try something.

 

if i had ever had anyone tell me that the hero math was beyond them, as in they could not do it, i would have to consider that. but, since the ones i have heard were of the "too much" variety, i find it much more reasonable for me to treat that as qualitative judgement and not be as dismissive or perhaps perjorative.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Good call. To extend your anology' date=' when it comes to gaming, I have never liked any storebought pop, I always have to either brew my own, or do the fountain drink mix thing and add three or more drinks together. I can drink the Pepsi on an occasional basis, but not long term as my standard drink. A matter of personal taste.[/quote']

 

Absolutely... however, if you started claiming pepsi drinkers who would not brew their own beverages did so because they were lazy... you might expect some amount of contrary opinion on that position.

 

enjoy your games.

 

EDIT: matter of fac, at this point, most of the issue seems beyond HERO and D20. it has moved to very general elements of "setting based" or "genre-ic" vs "setting free" or "generic" systems. i could grab any storyteller game, put it in place of "d20" above and put fudge or other setting-less systems in place of hero and get the same comments making sense... well except for the "too much math" which seems fairly specific to hero and definitely NOT applicable to fudge. :-)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

A given d20 product is like a tall glass of ice cold pepsi. if pepsi is your favorite, its great. if pepsi is OK, then you at least get something out of it. If you absolutely did not like pepsi, you bought the wrong soda.

 

HERO, on the other hand, is an empty glass with no ice and no beverage but instructions on making ice and making beverages.

 

Use of pepsi is not intended to infringe on any trademarks or copyrights. I am in no way financially affiliated with pepsico or any of its subsidiaries.

So does that make us lemon's?

If so, let's all make some lemonaid and be happy.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Absolutely... however, if you started claiming pepsi drinkers who would not brew their own beverages did so because they were lazy... you might expect some amount of contrary opinion on that position.

 

enjoy your games.

 

But if someone said "I hate homebrewed beverages, they are too sweet (or bitter)" when what they really don't like is the work involved, that would be wrong, which is how I see the "The math is too hard". The math isn't hard. The work may be more than someone wants, or feels is neccessary, to put in , but the math is easy.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

if i had ever had anyone tell me that the hero math was beyond them' date=' as in they could not do it, i would have to consider that. but, since the ones i have heard were of the "too much" variety, i find it much more reasonable for me to treat that as qualitative judgement and not be as dismissive or perhaps perjorative.[/quote']

 

I've had several people tell me that. And on the "too much" math concept ... D20 can have just as much math.

 

I just don't get the anti-math bent at any level .. you'd think Math were some kind of mind sucking contagion. I mean really, it doesn't reach that status until deep into Calculus...

[JMcL63]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Well OK, I haven't read the entire thread from beginning to end, so I apologise in advance if I tediously repeat anyone else.

 

First off, HERO is 'harder' than most games. That is, the rules have a steeper learning curve, and are more demanding than you'll find in most games. HERO is not a 'pick up and play' rpg. This means that it will always have a more limited appeal than many other rpgs. Us die-hard fans of HERO's universal rpg-engine might as well just get used to this fact, and redirect our responses to the issues this debate raises to more productive issues.

 

What I am getting at here I guess is what you get for that extra investment in learning the system. I mean, HERO is most definitely (IMO) a game where players really must learn the intricacies of the combat system. This is because the HERO combat engine is simultaneously dramatic and tactical. The basic mechanism for this is the infamous SPD table (something I would never use were I to attempt to design a post-HERO universal rpg). The tactics are really hardcore, and emerge from the combination of playing-off your OCV versus your DCV in your choice of combat manoeuvres, and in your timing of said manoeuvres according to the ebbs and flows of the SPD table. What you have then is a cycle of combat in which you intervene according to your choice. This is both realistic (after years of studying WW2 history I really do believe that this is how the reality of combat works); and dramatic, in that this is also how superheroes operate in the comics (not to mention other heroes in other genres).

 

This is what you get by investing time in learning how the HERO combat system works- a truly satisfying combat system that simultaneously satisfies both the grognard and the melodramatic action-hero in many of us. Fans of Buffy or Xena should find this satisfying, but I can also imagine many roleplayers to whom this would be irrelevant.

 

The above is only a discussion of that aspect of HERO that is most controversial even among its diehard fans. The character creation system is something else entirely. Here, the main advantage is literally unlimited flexibility. If you can think of it, you can design it. As soon as you start using the powers, then the finest detail you can envisage can be brought out using the appropriate combination of power advantages and limitations. For those who like fiddling with detailed character concepts, this is the greatest thing since the invention of rpgs. But for those who just want to pick up a game and play, why should they bother?

 

So, I guess what I am getting at in this fairly obvious restatement of some of HERO's greatest strengths is that they are only strengths for those who want them in their games. For those who don't then they are not, because of the effort required to make use of them. And that is to not even get into the issue that, however universal, HERO is most definitely not the ideal system for playing all games in all settings (Call of Cthulhu being my favourite example in this respect). It is just the single most flexible generic system around because it is the only genuinely universal system available as far as I know.

 

This post is already getting long enough to be a serious ramble, so I'd better sum up what I am getting at as this: there will always be rpg'ers to whom HERO is more than they want out of an rpg. There is no point in getting upset by their apparent 'blindness' in the face of the self-evident merits of our favourite system. Rather, we should highlight HERO's strengths so as to make the system appealing to those who are looking for what a game like HERO has to offer. That's it I guess.

 

PS. However complicated or not, the number-crunching in HERO is arithmetic, not maths.

[tesuji]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

 

I've had several people tell me that. And on the "too much" math concept ... D20 can have just as much math.

Well, now that is a first for me. i haven't even known a rabid pro-hero guy to balk at the notion that it involves "more math."

I just don't get the anti-math bent at any level .. you'd think Math were some kind of mind sucking contagion. I mean really, it doesn't reach that status until deep into Calculus...

 

Try this... unless the character is a mathematician, math involved in chargen is not about character.

 

heck, think of it this way... nothing about my character concept, nothing about my character background, nothing about my character story... none of it... tells me one thing about "how many total points is he worth".

 

All the "character stuff" wont give me a number to fit in under.

 

So "all the math" done to reach "total points my Gm allows", all the finagling to get him in "under 350" is stuff thats away from the fun character stuff... UNLESS (like me and perhaps like you) doing that math to be under the points is FUN for its own sake. For me, building a HERO character (the math part) is like solving a brain teaser or doing a crossword. its fun in its own right.

 

But, not everyone likes doing crosswords and solving brain teasers.

Even if they do, they might not like having to do one in order to get to play an RPG.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

This post is already getting long enough to be a serious ramble, so I'd better sum up what I am getting at as this: there will always be rpg'ers to whom HERO is more than they want out of an rpg. There is no point in getting upset by their apparent 'blindness' in the face of the self-evident merits of our favourite system. Rather, we should highlight HERO's strengths so as to make the system appealing to those who are looking for what a game like HERO has to offer. That's it I guess.

 

PS. However complicated or not, the number-crunching in HERO is arithmetic, not maths.

Nicely put.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

This occured to me today as I dealt with issues at work .... it is intended as humor but I'm in a particularly bad mood as some jerk tried to kill me on my drive home so .. uh, forgive anything that doesn't sound entirely funny.

 

The Soda Game;

 

D20 Soda.

1. Choose your Cup. "Tall, thin" or "Short, wide" or "Mug"

2. Choose your ICE (all cups start with two CUBES of ICE):

Tall, Thin (TT) gets one type of ICE at level 1 - choose from Clear Round Cube, Clear Square Cube, Clear Cube with Hole In Middle, Clear Hex Cube or Clear Long Sliver (those half circle cubes).

Short,Wide (SW) gets two types of ICE at level 1 - choose from Clear Round Cube, Clear Square Cube or Clear Cube with Hole In Middle.

Mug (M) gets one type of ICE at leve 1 (see list for Short, Wide) and gets to choose the color: Clear, Red, Green or Blue.

3. Choose your SODA: At level 1 you may Fill The Cup with either Coke or Pepsi.

4. Levelling:

TT Level 2 - Add 1 CUBE of ICE, may be either new type of cube from TT CUBE List or may add one Cube of same type already in Cup and choose color: Clear, Red.

SW Level 2 - May change color of 1 CUBE of ICE to Red.

M Level 2 - add 1 CUBE of ICE; either one new CUBE from TT List or may add new CUBE Color: Orange.

etc... (I'll make tables later maybe).

 

Level 9 Cup of Soda:

Tall, Thin with 4 Clear Sliver Cubes, 2 Red Cubes with Hole In The Middle Fill The Cup: Coke or Orange Soda, Has Frosted Design on Cup.

 

HERO Soda; [math does not round and must be taken to 3 decimal places]

can build any kind of Cup of Soda they want, but must do it from scratch.

CUBE of ICE costs 8pts.

Colored Ice is a +1/3 Advatange

Cup Characteristics [base levels are 20 centimeteres x 20 centimeters x 20 centimeters]

Height - 1 centimeter = 2pts.

Width - 1 centimeter = 3pts. [width adjusts two dimensions]

Tapered Width is -1/3 Limitation if cup loses 2 centimeters Width/1 centimeter Height; -2/3 Limitation if cup loses 4 centimeters Width/1 centimeter Height.

Drink: 12pts + 2pts per Centimeter of Width above 20.

Variable Drink Adder: +2.5 pts to double kinds of Drink Available to Fill Cup

Cup Design: Costs 1 pt for every 3pts of Cup Height. [Design can only be changed when Cup is Refilled]

Design Advantage: Design may change Designs without Refill for +3/8 Advantage

Design Adder: May double number of available Designs for +3 pts.

Ranged Drinking - Basic Straw: 1 pt.; Bendy Straw: 4pts.; Loopy Straw: 9pts;

Straw Advantage: May Change Straws without Refill +5/8

 

Example Hero Drink [75 base pts + 6 disadvantage pnts]

24 centimeteres Tall [8pts] x 23 centimeters Wide [9pts], Four Cubes of ICE: [24pts] (SFX of ICE are 1 Square, 2 Slivers and 1 Round); One Cube (SFX are Hole in the Middle) Colored Reddish-Orange [10.666pts], Cup Design: Frosted Glass and Blue Checkered Pattern [11pts], Drink: Iced Tea [18pts]; Disadvantage: Thick Glass Cup, Breaks on 8- when Dropped [6pts] Total Cost = 80.666 pts.

 

D20 guy "Iced Tea? Man, I gotta buy the Backyard Bar-B-Que Core Book to drink Iced Tea. Dude .. you're calculator exploded."

Hero guy "I'm gonna buy Ranged Drinking with my experience points..... excuse me while I go find a new calculator..."