Vanguard00 Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Interesting combat but I would doubt that someone who hates organic life and feels like he must destroy it' date=' not to mention being strongly overconfident, would immediately put all of his levels into dcv. If I were the gm I would not allow this until Mechanon as at half or less stun. That right there is the difference between 4 hits per phase and 1.[/quote'] There is an argument for this, though. Watch a heavyweight fight sometime and notice how there are occasions when one fighter will simply let the other burn some endurance trying to hit him, then come back and take him out with an all out attack. Even if the second fighter weathers the storm he rarely has the wind to counter. I think the overconfidence would apply in Mechanon standing there going toe to toe with the Champions knowing he can beat them, but it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't going to use some form of tactics to do so. Granted, I might not have run Mechanon the same way, either, but there is a precedent for such a move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCUBA Hero Posted June 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Great report, TheEmerged! I take it that Mechanon flew up 5" on Segment 12 or Segment 2? re: Mechanon has 3 targetting senses - doh! Nevermind the Flash. re: Entangle - I'd have the rest of the Champions Hold Action until Mechanon breaks free, then try to clobber him. Skill levels - You allow the 3-point Multipower skills to be used for DCV vs. ranged attacks??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJR Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon I think the overconfidence would apply in Mechanon standing there going toe to toe with the Champions knowing he can beat them, but it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't going to use some form of tactics to do so. Granted, I might not have run Mechanon the same way, either, but there is a precedent for such a move. While the combat example is valid I just do not see it being in genre. That example could have been 5 jedi fighting Darth Vadar or the fellowship of the ring fighting a cave troll. Without the genre elements it just comes down to a slugfest. What would Ultron do if he encountred the Avengers? He would boast, he would use powerful attacks, he would not try to defend himself and use flash attacks unless he was getting seriously beaten. Within the genre Ultron would be played as he was designed to be played: arrogant and overconfident. Ultron would not use tactics such as Mechanon just used to win. I'd also point out that Mechanon does not have tactics skill. That is one of the ways the players are supposed to be able to defeat him. The combat was ok for what it was, but I think it if were played out at my gaming table there would be a great many more comic book genre elements that would come into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJR Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Skill levels - You allow the 3-point Multipower skills to be used for DCV vs. ranged attacks??? That is allowed in the rules as long as Mechanon uses one of the attacks in the multipower at that time he can choose to have his levels on DCV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard00 Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon While the combat example is valid I just do not see it being in genre. That example could have been 5 jedi fighting Darth Vadar or the fellowship of the ring fighting a cave troll. Without the genre elements it just comes down to a slugfest. What would Ultron do if he encountred the Avengers? He would boast, he would use powerful attacks, he would not try to defend himself and use flash attacks unless he was getting seriously beaten. Within the genre Ultron would be played as he was designed to be played: arrogant and overconfident. Ultron would not use tactics such as Mechanon just used to win. I'd also point out that Mechanon does not have tactics skill. That is one of the ways the players are supposed to be able to defeat him. The combat was ok for what it was, but I think it if were played out at my gaming table there would be a great many more comic book genre elements that would come into play. Respectfully, tactics does not require the use of the "tactics" skill. I meant "tactics" in the "here's what I'm gonna do" sense. Also, imagine you're playing one of the team that's going up against Mechanon. He gives you first shot, turning on his defenses and making sure that you can't hit him if at all possible. Everyone on your team makes their best effort and...nada. Zip. Zero. Mechanon still stands. It can be disconcerting, at the very least, and downright disheartening to the point of giving up. Especially when he starts taking out your teammates at will, one by one. I think it's definitely in keeping with the genre. Dr. Doom and Ultron both have used the "hit me with your best shot" tactic followed by "is that all you have?" I do agree that FtF gaming might have brought out the "color" more, but I still think it was a fairly representative combat simulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJR Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Also' date=' imagine you're playing one of the team that's going up against Mechanon. He gives you first shot, turning on his defenses and making sure that you can't hit him if at all possible.[/quote'] I'm sorry. I do not envision Mechanon bobbing and weaving away from attacks in a comic book. I see him taking the hits to show everyone else that he is more powerful that any organic creature. In our game he would be required to make an EGO to act non-overconfident. To each his own though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard00 Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon I'm sorry. I do not envision Mechanon bobbing and weaving away from attacks in a comic book. I see him taking the hits to show everyone else that he is more powerful that any organic creature. In our game he would be required to make an EGO to act non-overconfident. To each his own though. Understood. Differing ideas of how "overconfident" could/should be played seems to be the key, here. No big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCUBA Hero Posted June 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon On the Multiple Power Attack with AE Cone Flash and AE Radius EB attacks - I don't think it's normally legal (IDHMBIFOM) because one is Ranged and the other isn't. (Although I agree that in general, blasting away with the 18d6 EB is best - an average hit will KO anyone but Ironclad, and will CON-Stun even him. . .) 3-point skill levels - I'll look it up when I get home, but it just doesn't make sense to me that being more accurate with the Multipower could make Mechanon harder to hit. Thought: or is that a genre thing? Presumably, using 3-point levels with, say, Pistols, in a Heroic game for DCV wouldn't be allowed; but is it different for Superheros? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon [*]Witchcraft's VPP is more cute than useful; she *desperately* needs at least one high-impact slot in her multipower against non-human opponents (9d6 EB just doesn't cut it). That VPP is actually very useful against most foes. Just not Mechanon where her base attacks are useless. An additional 12/12 1/2 end Force Field, or a personal immunity darkness field where she can ego blast or transform is nothing to sneeze at under normal circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon 3-point skill levels - I'll look it up when I get home' date=' but it just doesn't make sense to me that being more accurate with the Multipower could make Mechanon harder to hit. Thought: or is that a genre thing? Presumably, using 3-point levels with, say, Pistols, in a Heroic game for DCV wouldn't be allowed; but is it different for Superheros?[/quote'] You can use 3 pt CSLs as DCV with the same type of attack (range or hth) as they're applicable to. So in this case, those levels apply to range attacks. Nightduck and Ironclad wouldn't have to worry about those levels. Of course Mechanon could simply reverse his levels, use the overall ones for DCV and the multipower ones for OCV. No big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJR Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon 3-point skill levels - I'll look it up when I get home' date=' but it just doesn't make sense to me that being more accurate with the Multipower could make Mechanon harder to hit. Thought: or is that a genre thing? Presumably, using 3-point levels with, say, Pistols, in a Heroic game for DCV wouldn't be allowed; but is it different for Superheros?[/quote'] It works the same way in heroic games too. Imagine it this way: Barbarian has 2 3-point levels with swords. When fighting with a sword he can put then into his dcv to protect himself from other hand to hand attacks. But if he was punching someone he cannot put the sword levels into dcv or ocv. It is the same with Mechanon. If he Energy Bolts someone he can used those levels in ocv or ranged dcv. But if he attempted to grab someone he cannot use the levels in either ocv or dcv because he is not using a slot from the multipower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon RE: Ultron not bobbing & weaving vs Mechanon. Ultron is made out of Adamantium. Mechanon has a whopping 30 DEF (evidence in my opinion he was supposed to have a Force Field too). I'd be bobbing and weaving if I could take STUN from a 9d6 attack too. What's more, I don't even think it's out of character given his Overconfidence. It's just one more way in which he's superior to the puny fleshbags RE: Boner on my part. When I get the chance, I need to go back and re-examine a couple of the rolls. Seems I *totally* forgot the bonus for multiple attackers (+1 for every coordinating opponent after the first). RE: 30-pt VPP. My bad, I wasn't clear enough. The 30-point VPP is more cute than useful given some glaring omissions -- that is, she really needs some points in other areas and I don't think the VPP is worth more than those problems. RE: The flash on segment 12. I confess, that was experiment on my part. Chances are good he'd have just throttled Defender or Sapphire (the two known threats) with his good friend Mr. 18d6. In which case the fight might well have ended a segment or two sooner... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCUBA Hero Posted June 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Witchcraft is actually the poorest off. Her mental powers don't affect him at all (machine class of minds)Champions' date=' Page 205 (emphasis mine): "His comuter brain is so complex that [b']it responds just like an organic brain would to psychic powers[/b] (though it does have built-in defenses against such powers)." Might want to try it again with her mental powers affecting Mechanon (I'd say that passage makes him Human rather than Machine class of mind). (shrug) Then again, with 18 points of Mental Defense, I'm not sure how much more effective Witchcraft would be. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Shouldn't a overconfident Mechanon just put all his levels in to EB and hit with a 22d6 haymakered attack, takes a few hits repeat. One shot kills to most of the champions. Job done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCUBA Hero Posted June 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon More musings on the matchup. . . I may try it once without Rapid Fire/Sweep and once with. How would the dynamics change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intrope Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Champions' date=' Page 205 (emphasis mine): "His comuter brain is so complex that [b']it responds just like an organic brain would to psychic powers[/b] (though it does have built-in defenses against such powers)." Might want to try it again with her mental powers affecting Mechanon (I'd say that passage makes him Human rather than Machine class of mind). (shrug) Then again, with 18 points of Mental Defense, I'm not sure how much more effective Witchcraft would be. . . Well, with 15 EGO and 18 MD, she can't even get EGO with her Mind Control or Illusions, and here Ego Attack will do 3 STUN. I guess she could Haymaker her Ego Attack for 10 STUN (and with ECV 8 v. Mech's 5 she'd actually do more damage than Sapphire, I think). Her best VPP use is probably something like: Spell of Protection from Technology: 8rED FF Hardened, Usable by Others and Self, x4 targets, No END & persistent. That's 30 pts, if I'm not mistaken. Of course, she probably should NOT be allowed to use spells like that (It makes the rest of the Champions noticeably tougher after all). Other than that, I'd just recommend ditching the VPP, and pointing some points into her helpful witcheries (bring the FF up to 13/13 and the flight to 13" No END) and add the rest as more MP slots. That way her defenses wouldn't be so low, and she could have more special attacks (I'd go with all exotic attacks just for flavor). I may try running a combat or two of Mechanon v. Meatbags later too. Would be good practice for my rusty skills--And it's always fun to beat up the Champions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon With rapid fire the fight might be over before it starts. Im against rapid fire, personal oppinion, its just broken. No surprise, i consider alot of things broken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Given that the Champions all have teamwork, I would have expected better results for them. When facing a single tough opponent, you are pretty much always better off delaying your actions and/or aborting your actions to dive for cover, dodge, go desolid, block or missile deflect rather than sit there and trade blows. Collectively, the Champions have more than twice as many actions in a turn than Mechanon. If whoever ends up in the crosshairs simply goes defensive when fired upon, they *might* end up avoiding the damage. As opposed to trading blows which has predictable results. If you get lucky and avoid a shot or two, that's a phase where Mechanon gets nowhere and the rest of your teammates can go to town on him/it. String together a couple of these phases and you might have something going for you... Especially if some of your teammates are playing the lottery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon "His comuter brain is so complex that it responds just like an organic brain would to psychic powers (though it does have built-in defenses against such powers)." Key phrase: "like" an organic mind, not that he is/has one. So, he's obviously a member of the machine class of mind instead of an automaton. She still can't touch him. RE: Rapid Fire. I purposely avoided this one. It's pretty clear with his obscene skill levels this fight could have ended a lot earier. RE: My mistake. There were three occassions where blows that I had missing Mechanon should have hit because of either the combined attacker bonus or putting the 3 pt levels to offense and overalls on defense (changing his tactic to CV 12/11 instead of 11/12). NightDuck's first attack, the throw in Segment 12, should have hit. The fact that Mechanon falls doesn't really matter since he has to get up from Defender's hit anyway. The damage result is 38 S, 12 B, 0 K (martial attack), of which 8 STUN gets through. The combined 24 STUN (his attack and Defender's) is not enough to CON-stun Mechanon -- and after the post-12 recovery, the bottom line is that Mechanon goes into Segment 1 with 4 points of STUN damage. More of a problem is the combination attack by Sapphire and Witchcraft in Segment 3 -- both of which were NND's and both of which should have hit. Witchcraft's comes up 6 STUN, Sapphire's came up high at 27 STUN. However even 33 STUN isn't enough to CON-Stun Mechanon. Bottom line: Mechanon takes 37 STUN instead of none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJR Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Key phrase: "like" an organic mind' date=' not that he is/has one. So, he's obviously a member of the machine class of mind instead of an automaton. She still can't touch him.[/quote'] You are joking here, right? It very clearly means that his mind is affected as a humans would be from mental powers. "It responds just like" means it responds in the same way as an organic mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Especially if some of your teammates are playing the lottery.You mean Killing Attacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon No, I'm not joking. If Mechanon isn't an example of the machine class of mind, what is? PS: Editting the correction info into my earlier post. Bottom line: Mechanon goes into the second segment 12 with 37 points of STUN damage instead of 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJR Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon No' date=' I'm not joking. If Mechanon isn't an example of the machine class of mind, what is?[/quote'] Computers, AIs, Automations, and any race of being not as evolved as Mechanon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon We'll have to disagree then, since I call the machine class of mind any machine with an EGO score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Witch Doctor Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Re: Champions vs. Mechanon Computers' date=' AIs, Automations, and any race of being not as evolved as Mechanon.[/quote'] In other words, the machine class of mind wouldn't include any NPCs or PCs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.