Mark Ingraham Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Greetings, one and all! I decided after a long debate to run the current version of my gameworld with HERO System / Fantasy Hero, having had some Champions experience from a few years back. I like the notion that the gm/world-creator can customize everything about their world from how spells work to what spells there are to whether elves can string up their ears to play harp to anything. No offense to elf lovers, please! So basically I'm going to be getting in the mail HERO System 5th-ED, Fantasy Hero, Fantasy Hero Grimoire, and Fantasy Hero Monsters n' Stuff. I'm tempted to grab the Champions books for UNTIL's superpowers database and gadgets list just for ideas on magic items and inhuman powers, but I'll probably hold off for a while. So, basically I need help from whomsoever about doing this. I've never run HERO 5 or Fantasy HERO, so I need to know tips and tricks about what works and what doesn't, how rate of experience should go, things to avoid as GM at all costs, and so on. And hey, a few words of encouragement would be welcome too. So, that about covers it, I'm glad to be a member of such a good group and hope for a good, lively discussion! Thanks, Mark Ingraham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Here are a few observations. Definitely run a couple short adventures using disposable characters (or allow rewrites), so that you and your players can get used to the system. I find that using Encumbrance, Hit Locations and the Impairing/Disabling rules is very good, but the Bleeding and Wounding rules are less good. I also use a house rule making characters less effective as they lose END. If your players are accustomed to Champions, they will probably come in and design characters with very, very high stats and defenses. If you want high-fantasy, this is fine -- if you want low fantasy it may not play so well. Expect to have some back-and-forth over this. Keep in mind that there's a bit of a high-magic bias in the FH material -- if your world is lower fantasy, don't feel bad about toning stuff down. When producing your magic system, write down how it works in non-game-system terms first -- then translate it to Hero. If you start thinking about it as game mechanics, you can lose the fantasy atmosphere. Come up with a scale for combat levels, so you can roughly rate characters based on their DEX and CSLs, and provide a measure of what NPCs are likely to have (city guard = this, veteran guard = that, duelist = something more, etc.). This gives both you and the players a metric to look at when making their characters. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest joen00b Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Playtesting is a MUST!! It helps you get accustomed to the rules again, it helps you realize the mortality rate involved with FH, it will allow you to expand a bit more in the rules so when you do start the laborious task of switching everything over, it'll go quicker and you'll do it right the first time. I've personally had to rewrite quite a few things after some playtesting and it bugged me. I've since scrapped my homemade world for Turakian Age, as it's hip, slick, and self contained with everything I'll ever need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Greetings, one and all! I decided after a long debate to run the current version of my gameworld with HERO System / Fantasy Hero, having had some Champions experience from a few years back. I like the notion that the gm/world-creator can customize everything about their world from how spells work to what spells there are to whether elves can string up their ears to play harp to anything. No offense to elf lovers, please! So basically I'm going to be getting in the mail HERO System 5th-ED, Fantasy Hero, Fantasy Hero Grimoire, and Fantasy Hero Monsters n' Stuff. I'm tempted to grab the Champions books for UNTIL's superpowers database and gadgets list just for ideas on magic items and inhuman powers, but I'll probably hold off for a while. So, basically I need help from whomsoever about doing this. I've never run HERO 5 or Fantasy HERO, so I need to know tips and tricks about what works and what doesn't, how rate of experience should go, things to avoid as GM at all costs, and so on. And hey, a few words of encouragement would be welcome too. So, that about covers it, I'm glad to be a member of such a good group and hope for a good, lively discussion! Thanks, Mark Ingraham One other book you might want to consider - The Hero Beastiery. Sugeestions: Know the rules. If you've played Hero games before you probably have the basics down already - particularly if your exerpeince is with Champions. Read though Fantasy Hero. This book is just full of ideas and suggestion on using the Hero System for Fantasy. Experience. I usually award 1 or 2 points at the end of each short arc, with a few more points awarded at the end of the extended story arc. Things that work / don't work. Optional combat rules. There are a lot of optional rules in the combat chapter of the Hero System Rules (things like hit location, knockdown, imparing, etc, etc). Individually, each of these things can add an additonal level of "realism" and/or danger to your combat. Using to many of them will sloooooow combat down to the point where it becomes boring (combat should never be boring). Encumberance. I know a lot of Hero GMs who don't like the encumberance rules. I like them for Fantasy as it provides a great rationale for Wizards not wearing armor (most of them lack the STR to deal with the encumbrance). Spells / Magic Systems. Fantasy Hero does not include a magic system. The book offers up lots of suggestions for designing them, but doesn't quite do it for you. Depending on your perspective (and how much you like system fiddling) magic system design can be either the funnest part of setting up a campaigbn or the most tedious. The Grimoire incldues write-ups (and costs) for scads of spells, grouped by school. It also includes a capsule description of how magic works in the Turakian Age setting. You may want to consider starting with this as your default magic system and, if you later find it doesn't suit you, change later. This lets you get your magic up and running in a hurry. Starting points. In my typical FH games, characters are built on 75 points plus disads, no more than 25 points in any single disad category, normal characteristic maximum assumed. Non-human races. The Fantasy Hero book includes packages for a whole bunch of familiar (and not so familiar) fantasy races. I have some kind of psychological limitation regarding the ways these packages (and packages in general) handle charactersitic adjustments. Unfortunately, I'm not really sure why I don't like it, so I haven't been able to come up with a fix that I like. (My current FH game has no fantasy races, so it's not an issue for me right now). No doubt, more discussion will follow... John D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordeanGrey Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! A few suggestions... A novice person building their first character in HERO may feel a bit overwhelmed with all of the choices. I'd recommend making copies of the package deals (fighter, thief, etc.) from the Fantasy Hero book and having those available for characters to look at when creating their characters. In order to help create balanced characters, I would suggest telling the players to try to spend their available points roughly equally between skills and stats. (i.e.--for 100 point characters, spend around 50 points for stats and 50 points for skills...of course this can be adjusted for the low stat/high skill/spell wizard character. It's something I do in my games to encourage the players not to just make a "stat-monster" character with no skills. Be flexible!) Also, make a character action chart that lists Dexterity down one side, and Phases across the top. Leave space so characters can write their names in at the appropriate location to help keep the combat/action sequence organized. (I usually hang this on the inside of my GM screen so I can see the chart and keep the players and NPCs on track during a busy combat sequence.) Having a few extra copies of the range chart, combat maneuvers, and OCV/DCV tables on hand allows the new players to quickly see the options available to them during the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltraRob Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! I'm going to be running an open FH game for newbies in my area soon, and you might consider what I was planning to do...The first game I'm just going to give everyone premade characters (from a pile they will pick from) and run them on a good ole fashioned D&D Dungeon Crawl using those characters as a way of giving them a "feel" for the system before I ever let them touch character creation. Then when they've got a handle on it, I will let them actually try making characters of their own for a real campaign if things go well. HERO can be easily overwhelming, so why not let them get a feel for how the game works before asking them to do the hard stuff. Of course, whenever I run a new system for any group I always run a round of combat first to give them a feel for the system. (After doing my own little solo playtests first, of course...) Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltraRob Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Oh! And one more thing...I have noticed with HERO there is a tendancy for players to "evolve" their characters in certain directions based on what has worked for them so far...completely natural and logical, I agree...but it can produce odd effects you might need to watch out for... For example, my last group's first experience with HERO was a Streetfighter type martial arts campaign...all fine and good...but when I asked them to hand in their characters for the Fantasy campaign that followed I suddenly found myself looking at an entire group of characters with basic natural PD's of 20+ across the board. Perfectly logical in a high powered streetfighter game, but suddenly they felt naked without it when I wanted them to make Fantasy characters who normally have PD's of 4-8. I have noticed HERO gamers who start with Champions also have this problem sometimes because they start used to high powered characters and then suddenly freak when they're asked to play someone with DEX:13, SPD:2-3. If anything, I would advocate starting your players off with as low a point value as you feel comfortable with, and then let them evolve through experience. (I would say 50+50, but some people here would probably say as low as 25+25. ) Then after that even if you use higher point values their first thoughts won't be "Okay...STR: 20, DEX:20, SPD:4...." before they even think about who their characters are because they're used to higher powered stats and want to max things as quickly as possible. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trechriron Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Sidekick - It is a pile of pages for only $10. It is prettier and cheaper than printing off anything. The word on the boards here from newer players - "it helped me learn the system". Can’t beat that for a testimonial. I would suggest picking up a copy or two to teach the game. Character Creation - Concept. Concept. Concept. In a system where you can do anything, people want to try everything. Help people get some solid ideas about what they want before they crack a book. Reasoning from effect – The idea here is to find the GENERIC mechanic to fit the specific idea. Not vice versa. If your players have little experience with HERO, you need to be prepared to help people over this little mental hump. I find a simple reiteration by stepping through the process over and over is very helpful until they get it. Be patient. Another facet of this phenomena is the excessive representation of everything in HERO terms. If you really want to help inspire colorful representation of the mechanics, focus on the effects and color. It is a beautiful Long Sword, not a RKA 1d6+1. Just my two cents on the subject… Character Type Limitations - FREd has suggested limitations based on Character Types (Point Totals) and these guidelines help keep our FH game in check. I highly recommend them. Real Cost Deductions for Spells – Since you can get a handy Long Sword (RKA) with some coin but that Frosty Ice Blast (RKA) spell will cost CP, some could argue a fairness issue here. A suggestion in FH is to reduce the Real Cost of spells by 1/3. I like this idea. However, be sure that new characters take all the limitations associated with spells for the magic style, including skills. If you allow lots of no RSR, fast, psionic-like spells you are breaking the spirit of the 1/3 cost idea (IMO). The idea is to increase the mages diversity while still keeping the feel of a fantasy magic system. No Stone Works – In the end if something on that character sheet does not sit well with you, you should negotiate with the player. I would try the three session rule. If after three sessions you decide that the power in question is too powerful, it should be modified. The other fear I encounter frequently is the “set in stone†theory. Don’t etch things in stone when you are learning the system. At some point you will all naturally know when you can break out the cement. May your games be Fun, Fruitful, and Fantastic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palehorse Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Someone already mentioned all the combat options - hit locations, etc. - but I thought I'd chime in for a moment. When I ran my first Fantasy Hero campaign (and as it happens, my most successful and popular campaign ever, in any genre!) we started off with no options at all. After we'd played a few times and everyone started getting the hang of things, we'd try one out for awhile ("Hey, you guys want to try hit locations this week?"), and if we liked it, we kept it, played it til we were comfortable with it, and then moved on to the next one. Worked pretty well for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Character Creation - Concept. Concept. Concept. In a system where you can do anything, people want to try everything. Help people get some solid ideas about what they want before they crack a book. Yeah. We usually write stories to introduce our characters to the game. I usually end up writing the story before I ever start putting the character together. Writing the story helps me flesh out some ideas, then I justhave to come up with a way to get those ideas into a character sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palehorse Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Yeah. We usually write stories to introduce our characters to the game. I usually end up writing the story before I ever start putting the character together. Writing the story helps me flesh out some ideas' date=' then I justhave to come up with a way to get those ideas into a character sheet.[/quote'] Oh, and that reminds me... Accept that your players may not get exactly the characters they were looking for on the first try. Consider letting them hold a few unspent points in reserve to make up for deficiencies, or let them shuffle a few points around after the first session or two. (This is where playtesting really pays off, I think; a couple of mock sessions to fine tune characters at the outset is well worth it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Our group typically lets people move points around after one or two sessions. This is so that a player can find out if he forgot something or needs to change something because it is too powerful or too weak. In Champions I forgot to buy up my END, that was fun with the speedster. Segment 6 I rest, two phases burned all my end. If the players don't yet have full comprehension of the rules then they may buy something and find it much less useful then they expected. This way they can move points around to something that may see more game-play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Keen Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! It is a beautiful Long Sword' date=' not a RKA 1d6+1.[/quote'] An RKA Long Sword? OOOH! I want one of those! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trechriron Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! My bad. I was typing fast at work and not thinking thinking. So no. You can't have one. So there. nany nany boo boo. Unless it actually is made of Nurf foam and shoots small blasts of processed cheese spread. In which case I would surely allow a RKA Long Sword. The Nurf Cheeser (Deadly Long Sword of the Soft Way) - The Nurf Cheeser: HA +1d6, Required Hands One-Handed (+0) (5 Active Points); OAF Durable (-1), STR Minimum 1-5 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) Processed Cheese Glob: RKA 2d6, 8 Recoverable Charges (+0) (30 Active Points); OAF Durable Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), Inaccurate 1/2 OCV (-1/4), Range Based On STR (-1/4), Linked (The Nurf Cheeser; -1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) [8 rc] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photon1966 Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! I too have recently started a game in 5th. I have played before, enjoyed it alot, did other games but came back to FH. Number one read FH book. I know that will be a task, it's BIG, but there are just so many little things to add to a game and stuff they have thought about and rules for those things. Make sure though that your players are clear on what your using rule wise. One player has a Elf Archer type but he had only looked at the main book not FH. I pointedout to him in FH shooting bow puts you at 1/2 DCV. He bristled a bit but realized it fit the genre. But there have been a few other times with same elf where he read the Main book and didn't realize the changes I was using from FH. Now in the slow times, when he isn't involved he has the FH book open skimming/reading. Magic is hard. I am running a High Fantasy game but on a scale of 1-10 it's a 1 or 2. I have started to think maybe I should say I am running a Low Fantasy 9 or 10. What ever your setting though magic is a huge ball of wax! With you just starting out you might stick with the premade one of Turakian. Nothing wrong with it, just wasn't the flavour I was exactly looking for. Optional rules aboud. I liked the one persons comment about trying a different one every few weeks to see what you like. We use location hits, and impair/disabling, bleeding, Long Term Endurance. It DOES complicate things, but we have all played Hero before, as well as many other games so just keep a spare cue card for each player to keep track so they don't kill their sheets with writing and erasing. Character concept is a must. My campaign all takes place at sea or various islands they travel too. This made most players make sure they could swim, and climb, and some picked up PS:Sailor and worked that into their backgrounds. But first was the general stroy of them and history of how they got here. Then we applied disadvantages before doing anything else. Then they made characters. I noticed, since the first couple of adventures were combat heavy sided every one began boosting PD, END, CSL, etc. Unless thats were you want to go make sure to make the advenutes varied. One of the great things about hero is the skills. Make them USEFUL! Otherwisa they will never buy them. Acrobatics and Analyze have direct combat things. But the Social skills are or should be just as important. Plus don't forget the INT ones and all the KS. Put stuff in the adventures and ask for those skills. Maybe only one or two have them. But if the players see that those skills amke a difference they will start to buy them. Experience is a tough one. 1-2 is good a session. But starting off I am a bit more giving, a lot more free about did players Role play etc. Because really every one at the staart is just trying things out. Also allow for some minor tweaking. The our dwarf diplomat character likes to no more LOVES to chat with people. Sometimes though the game needs to move on, or it's something we can do on line between games. So I swiped Gather Information from D20 and made it 3/2 PRE based skill. Thus she can talk and gain valuable info with out slowing the game too much in a busy port. But we didn't have that skill when we first made the character. But it made so much sense that she would have that skill. So I let her have it right then and there but the next 3 exp she gained had to go to pay that skill off before anything else. Thus game mechanically she was kept balance and storywise she worked even better. It's late here so I'll finish off buy saying Hero is great but it's strength can be it's greatest weakness. Have in your own mind what you want to run/play and make the game fit that vison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHob Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! It was recently decided by my gaming group that we would give FH a try, as opposed to our D&D game. I am currently working on converting my rather not normal Forgotten Realms game over into FH terms and make the world from scratch due to a complete lack of conversion between the two. I find that I have run into two major issues, the first being that I am not as good with the Hero system though I am an Experienced player, I find that I have difficulty in determining what rules apply to certain aspects of the world, the other major issue that I am still having is that the magic system is not quite what I want. The issue I am having with rules for certain aspects of the world is not my biggest hinderance at this point it's the Magic system. Here is the problem that I am facing at this point 1. The magic system needs to encompass both Clerical type magic and Sorcereous type magic. 2. Do I have the spell caster buy the spells as a power or a skill that represents the spell? 3. If I go with a Skill that represents the spell do I charge more for the skill? And if so how much more? 4. Also if I am going to have the player buy the spells as powers is it fair to also make them pay for the skill to be able to use certain schools of spells or should I just use an over all magic skill such as Divine, Sorcerous, Nature? 5. I think that last issue that I am finding I have is that in all of this, is that if I make the spell casters buy powers for thier spells do I make the other Characters that do not cast spells buy powers for thier gear and what not? I imagine that a lot of this is trivial in a broader scope of things, but at the moment this is what is going to define a large part of my world and the way the world works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordGhee Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Go to Killer shrike site where he has an amazing amount of work, many magic systems and a Dand D conversion http://www.killershrike.com/ Lord Ghee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHob Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! I have read a lot of the material on Killer Shrike and it is excellent! I got huge amounts of information from his site. I still find my self with those same questions. I suppose that re-reading it won't hurt though. I found a lot of the suggestions in this thread helpful, and was just hoping to get a little more feedback. < OFF to re-read Killershrike. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! I have read a lot of the material on Killer Shrike and it is excellent! I got huge amounts of information from his site. I still find my self with those same questions. I suppose that re-reading it won't hurt though. I found a lot of the suggestions in this thread helpful, and was just hoping to get a little more feedback. < OFF to re-read Killershrike. > Thanx for the kind words. As far as your individual questions Hob, it really depends on what scope you want to run the game at and what power level you want in game. Ive been able to run many magic systems in parrallel, including variations on VPP's, MP's, EC's, Skill based, and buy-a-power magic systems. All had pros and cons but were largely balanced. Mundane Equipment cost money, special Equipment cost points, same with abilities -- normal abilities handled with Skills and Talents, exotic abilities built with Powers limited in such a fashion to indicate their SFX as highly-specialized "Skills". IMO the most important thing about Magic Systems is the level of control placed on them. I was in the process of rewriting the Magic System docs on my site when I got derailed into other interests. Eventually Ill get back to it, but in the meantime the bulk of the new spin is up in rough form, but not directly linked to. Here is a direct link into the primary doc: http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Powers/Magic.shtml A lot of the meat is in "click downs", so make sure to click on the various exposition links in the doc. As I said this is a rough draft and will see a lot of alteration before finished, but the core ideas will remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briguy123 Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! The issue I am having with rules for certain aspects of the world is not my biggest hinderance at this point it's the Magic system. Here is the problem that I am facing at this point 1. The magic system needs to encompass both Clerical type magic and Sorcereous type magic. 2. Do I have the spell caster buy the spells as a power or a skill that represents the spell? 3. If I go with a Skill that represents the spell do I charge more for the skill? And if so how much more? 4. Also if I am going to have the player buy the spells as powers is it fair to also make them pay for the skill to be able to use certain schools of spells or should I just use an over all magic skill such as Divine, Sorcerous, Nature? 5. I think that last issue that I am finding I have is that in all of this, is that if I make the spell casters buy powers for thier spells do I make the other Characters that do not cast spells buy powers for thier gear and what not? I've been running a low fantasy campaign where each spell is bought as a knowledge skill. For 2 points you get an 11 or less roll to successfully cast the spell and for 3 poits you get to base it on your ego roll. Additional bonuses cost 1 point per +1 to the roll. However, I apply a diffulty modifier to each skill based on the real cost of the spell. I divide the real cost by 3 and apply that number as a negative modifier to the skill roll. For example, Master Theramin is a member of the College Arcane in my campaign city who specializes in conjuration. One of his favoite spells is "Theramin's Angry Swarm!" This spell summons hundreds of stinging and biting insects that swarm around the target inflicting damage to the target and anyone immediately adjacent. Unfortunately, if Theramin fails his skill roll by three or more, the swarm attacks Theramin instead. The swarm is not effective in strong winds, it can't affect non-living opponents (i.e. constructs or animated skeletons), nor can it penetrate forcefields. Master Theramin's Angry Swarm! 1 pip RKA. Advantages; NND (+1), Does body (+1), AE 1 hex (+1/2), Continuous (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1), Usable as an attack (+1). Disadvantages; RSR (-1/2), Incantatinons (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Side effects (-1/4), Full phase action (-1/2). Active cost: 30 Real cost: 10 Difficulty modifier: -3 Theramin has spent 7 points on this spell thus he gets his ego roll +4 (17 or less). However, the difficulty modifier of -3 is applied giving a final result of 14 or less. It takes a bit of prep time to build spells, but I and my players are satisfied with the results. IMO the benefits of this type of magic system are threefold. Just as fighters don't pay character points for their equipment, magic users don't have to purchase the powers they wield, only the skills needed to wield those powers. The more powerful a spell, the harder it is to cast. Proficiency with a given spell can be increased independently of other spells, because each spell has its own skill roll. This allows one model the fact that spell casters may have certain favorite spells that they practice frequently and thus are more proficient with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! I've been running a low fantasy campaign where each spell is bought as a knowledge skill. For 2 points you get an 11 or less roll to successfully cast the spell and for 3 poits you get to base it on your ego roll. Additional bonuses cost 1 point per +1 to the roll. However, I apply a diffulty modifier to each skill based on the real cost of the spell. I divide the real cost by 3 and apply that number as a negative modifier to the skill roll. ~~snipped example~~ IMO the benefits of this type of magic system are threefold. Just as fighters don't pay character points for their equipment, magic users don't have to purchase the powers they wield, only the skills needed to wield those powers. The more powerful a spell, the harder it is to cast. Proficiency with a given spell can be increased independently of other spells, because each spell has its own skill roll. This allows one model the fact that spell casters may have certain favorite spells that they practice frequently and thus are more proficient with them. Do you feel that allowing Skill Levels would be too cheese-filled for this system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! >>Originally Posted by Briguy123 I've been running a low fantasy campaign where each spell is bought as a knowledge skill. For 2 points you get an 11 or less roll to successfully cast the spell and for 3 poits you get to base it on your ego roll. Additional bonuses cost 1 point per +1 to the roll. However, I apply a diffulty modifier to each skill based on the real cost of the spell. I divide the real cost by 3 and apply that number as a negative modifier to the skill roll.<< We tried something very similar to this. If it works for you, then great. But what we found was that EVERY character was a magic user, which wasn't what we wanted. If you are thief, why buy stealth and climbing for 6 points when you could buy invisibility and clinging for 6 points? If you are a healer, why buy KS:healing for 3 points when you could buy a good healing spell for the same cost? If you are a fighter, 3 points spent on a forcefield spell beat the hell out of 3 points spent on a CSL, while a 3 points for a 2d6 RKA, no range mod was a hell of a lot better than a bow and arrow with some points spent on CSLs. Regeneration was good for everyone and eliminated any problems with wounds from combat - either you died outright, or a few minutes later you were fine. The extra END for powers and the casting limitation versus skills simply wasn't enough to compensate for the fact that many spells offered huge advantages if you didn't have to pay for them. It wasn't huge mega-killer spells that were the problem (the minus incurred took care of that) - but combat spells in the 10-15 AP range were really useful, and easy to cast, while non-combat spells in the 30 AP range, could be incredibly useful. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briguy123 Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Do you feel that allowing Skill Levels would be too cheese-filled for this system? I limit the amount of skill levels that a character can purchase, but they do add some flavor. For instance, if a player wanted his character to specialize in fire magic he might buy a 5 pt. skill level that adds +1 to the skill roll for any fire spell. In fact mages that belong to specialized guilds get a bonus skill level or two (depending on their ranks within the guild) for casting spells taught by that guild. This is included in the cp cost of guild membership. I wouldn't allow a character to have more than two such levels though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briguy123 Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! We tried something very similar to this. If it works for you, then great. But what we found was that EVERY character was a magic user, which wasn't what we wanted. If you are thief, why buy stealth and climbing for 6 points when you could buy invisibility and clinging for 6 points? If you are a healer, why buy KS:healing for 3 points when you could buy a good healing spell for the same cost? If you are a fighter, 3 points spent on a forcefield spell beat the hell out of 3 points spent on a CSL, while a 3 points for a 2d6 RKA, no range mod was a hell of a lot better than a bow and arrow with some points spent on CSLs. Regeneration was good for everyone and eliminated any problems with wounds from combat - either you died outright, or a few minutes later you were fine. The extra END for powers and the casting limitation versus skills simply wasn't enough to compensate for the fact that many spells offered huge advantages if you didn't have to pay for them. It wasn't huge mega-killer spells that were the problem (the minus incurred took care of that) - but combat spells in the 10-15 AP range were really useful, and easy to cast, while non-combat spells in the 30 AP range, could be incredibly useful. cheers, Mark Let's use the invisibility spell as an example. Invisibility Invisibility vs all sight. Disadvantages: RSR (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Conc. 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Full phase act. (-1/2), Side effect (-1/4). Active cost: 20 Real cost: 8 Difficulty modifier: -3 Theramin with an ego of 18 decides to learn this spell but spends only three character points on it. He has a 13 or less roll but he must apply the difficulty modifier of -3 to it. If he only spends 3 points, he can only cast the spell successfully on a roll of 10 or less (less than 50% of the time). On top of that, there is the side effect that comes into play if he fails his roll by three or more. Rolling thirteen or greater is not common but happens enough to be a serious inconvenience if you are facing a dangerous side effect. To get his skill roll up to a 13 or less for this spell, Theramin mist spend 6 points which is double what it costs to buy stealth. So far, these restrictions seem to keep play balanced between spell casters and non-spell casters. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help! Oh, I didn't mean to imply the system was unplayable, merely that it didn't give the effect we wanted. If you like it, more power to you! To take your own example, Theramin could take an extra 12 seconds and have a 13- roll, with a 16- chance of avoiding side effects, for 3 points, which is pretty good odds. It's not something that you do in combat, which was something I mentioned: a lot of the spells that were really useful were out of combat or precombat spells. But in a non-combat situation, 12 seconds is nothing. Given a minute to prepare, warriors would load up on extra strength, forcefield, and so on - but they still tended to rely on weapons and armour. As for traditional old-guy-in-a-robe style mages, we didn't have any. Those we started the game with either retired or rapidly acquired weapon familiarities and armour. and we had to outlaw spells with the advantage "trigger" to stop people racking up powerful spells that they could later call on. (as an aside, that's a good way to do "Vancian" magic) If you want a system where everyone has "charms" - the blacksmith can melt iron with a few gestures and a chant, the local healer can heal broken limbs as well as charming warts off and so on, then this system will give you that. Problems or lack thereof might also reflect the group you game with - in ours, the most active players were also GMs. We took turns at running and often had two games going at the same time, so the possibilities of the system were immediately apparent to all! cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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