Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

[Gunrunner]

I was curious how many people have run campaigns that allow the deadly blow talent. To me it seems overly powerful for a heroic campaign. Two levels of Deadly Blow with swords can give someone who does 1d+1 of KD normally a 3d+1 KD attack. Let's consider this:

 

3d+1 KD would do 11 to 12 BODY damage on average (which is a little much in my opinion); this would yield an approximate average of 22 to 36 STUN damage! Now, it would take a very tough, fully armored knight to have the slightest chance of not being stunned after every hit.

 

Furthermore, it just seems to trivialize heavy warriors with high STR. There doesn't seem much use in having a high STR if you can just buy Deadly Blow to do extra damage that doesn't even count against your maximum damage with a weapon! I know that Deadly Blow limits the circumstances or weapons one can use with the talent but so what? Swordmasters could just have a backup sword in case his primary breaks, not much of a disadvantage there. How do others feel about this talent?

[Eosin]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

I only allow heavily limited deadly blow - and - only per character. Favored enemy, only with sneak attack, etc...

[Rick]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

It's All about how you limit the circumstances of the Deadly blow. In a game where a wizard is buying Killing Attacks W/AE: Radius at 1/3, 1/5 or 1/10 the cost, I see no issue here.

 

Even W/out that, it cost 10 pts with certain weapon all of the, that's a hefty some, and valuable in a game where magic keeps getting more powerful and 250pt warrior A is still swinging his long sword for a maximum of 2 1/2d6.

 

At lower costs it's invaluable for back stabs, Iaijutsu, Special attacks and slayer type characters.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

I allow it, but with limits on how many dice set by character points. Also, in my campaigns Deadly Blow is only useful vs living opponents by default. It doesnt work against inanimate objects, and it doesnt work vs Automatons unless spefically against them.

 

For example 2d6 Deadly Blow vs Undead would affect Zombies built as Automatons, but 2d6 Any Weapon Any Circumstance would not.

 

3d6 Deadly Blow only to sunder weapons would affect other peoples weapons but 2d6 Sneak Attack would not.

 

etc etc.

 

Deadly Blow is a powerful feature allowing the modeling of so many variations that not using it seems a shame. Basically any "does more damage in circumstance X" effect is so easily handled by Deadly Blow, and it also helps to self-correct tank-magery and Combat Luck.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Its also nice when you don't want to load down characters with magical gear.

[Black Rose]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Its also nice when you don't want to load down characters with magical gear.

 

And works nicely, once tweaked slightly, as a special bonus to a low-end magic weapon. Not so much the blahblah-slayers, which are obvious, but more for the 1/2d6 HKA 1d6+1 w/STR), +1/2d6 HKA (2 1/2d6 w/STR), only for Sneak Attacks, OAF - Assassin's Blade.

[Talon]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

It does seem like, for the most part, a high-fantasy Talent. If you're using Combat Luck (another high-fantasy Talent IMO) it becomes more balanced. I prefer to run low-fantasy, where the ability to add 3DC to weapon damage would be overpowering.

 

I'd allow it in any game for very limited circumstances (vs. zombies, for example), but even then it would more likely be in the realm of a power (or power as skill).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Our Paladin has this for Evil opponents, with charges. I hadn't thought about buying it mulltiple times, however - that's something that should be watched very closely. Probably I would require pretty experienced characters before a second d6 could be applied.

 

I also agree with the comments that this should, in general, be under restrictive circumstances, and not "usable all the time at will", again unless the characters are quite high powered.

[Old Man]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Yeah, one level isn't that bad. The second level if it is allowed to be purchased at all should only come after several adventures and only if the character spends a lot of game time learning under a master or communing with spirits or meditating at a temple or somesuch.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Agreed!

 

I think that under most circumstances that Deadly Blow should be heavily limited. In my campaign, acceptable limitations include:

 

Only vs "X" (evil, Dragons, Goblins, Undead etc) [note also that "evil" means Supernatural Evil such as demons and powerful undead and diabolic mages and the like. No, serial killers don't count]

Requires Skill Roll (Stealth) Backstab

Requires Skill Roll (Fastdraw) Iaijutsu

"Heavy Attack" (X2 End, Delayed Phase, 1/2DCV -1 total)

Only while Enraged/Berserk

etc.

[Markdoc]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

I *don't* allow deadly blow. As noted, it can make a huge difference when added to a 1d6+1 attack. Even a single level is dreadful when added to a big muscular character with a large weapon. Add in martial arts and it gets worse. Icky Poo!

 

That's one reason for disallowing it. The second is that's it's a bastardised idea that doesn't fit within the Hero system. You can get the same effect by buying martial arts and then 6 (!) damage bonuses. Or you can buy an Aid to HKA (standard effect, 5 dice, triggered). You can get it by buying several dice of HKA and then limiting it back to OIF (weapon of opportunity, not more than 1d6 over standard damge, etc). All of these approaches have one thing in common - they are way more expensive than deadly blow. That alone should be a tip-off.

 

It's also become incredibly popular, with a decided bias towards characters who have it since the rule first appeared. That's tip-off number two.

 

The reason that they are more expensive is that what Deadly Blow does is simply increase active points in an attack - it's the only "power" in the whole Hero system that does that - you can't buy any other power and then add it to another power to increase the active points: that's what adjustment powers are for, and they are designed to give slightly less bang-for-buck than their active points. That's because extra damage above defences is essentially NND, so anything that increases max damage is worth gold to characters.

 

Hell, despite my dislike of it as a GM, I am considering buying it for my most recent FH character (Raarl - a half-troll pit-fighter). Normally I won't do things for my characters that I would not do as a GM, but the desire to do 4d6 with an axe and no magical enhancements may prove too alluring - it'd allow a near autokill of ordinary humans, almost regardless of armour.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Thats not true. You can buy STR that adds to your existing STR and put a limit on it, or buy HA and add your STR dmg to it. You can buy bonus dice for an EB or KA with additional limitations that add to a bigger attack.

 

 

The best parrallel currently is you could buy 15 pts of STR as a power only to do damage with lethal weapons. How much does that cost? 15 STR (OAF of Opportunity -1/2) = 10pts. Which is better than DB straight up in that it adds to normal and killing damage attacks.

 

The main difference is that Deadly Blow adds to BASE damage rather than counting against max damage. If you squelch that feature of DB it becomes relatively pointless to buy a lot of dice of it all in one lump. I dont have a problem with the BASE damage aspect, but if I turned it off I know it would become much less useful to players.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

I don't use it as it is listed.

 

I allow players to buy + xd6 killing attack damage with limitations, but I have tighter controls on those limits and I ensure they aren't wildly outdamaging the rest of the group.

 

My rogue has a +1d6 HKA, Only if target surprised (-1/2), Only to add to an existing attack (-1/4 -- this is so he doesn't have an "unarmed" killing attack.) So, all said and done this costs 9 points to make his shortsword do 2d6+1k with strength on a sneak attack.

 

Similarly, I let my archer buy a cheap multipower consisting of +1 pip Killing attacks with raw modifiers (compound power in HeroDesigner 2.x) -- so he has an Armor Piercing 2d6-1k, Autofire 3-Shot 2d6-1k, and a triggered 2d6-k if he kills a target and another target is directly in line. This multipower costs him about 12 points.

 

 

Of course, I'm going for cool LotR style SfX for my characters -- the archer wants to be like Legolas, so I built powers to allow him to be so.

[Markdoc]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

>>>Thats not true. You can buy STR that adds to your existing STR and put a limit on it, or buy HA and add your STR dmg to it. You can buy bonus dice for an EB or KA with additional limitations that add to a bigger attack.<<<

 

You can always buy more of something and limit it - that wasn't my point. HKA and HA both add to STR, but they don't give you more STR.

 

>>>The best parrallel currently is you could buy 15 pts of STR as a power only to do damage with lethal weapons. How much does that cost? 15 STR (OAF of Opportunity -1/2) = 10pts. Which is better than DB straight up in that it adds to normal and killing damage attacks.

 

The main difference is that Deadly Blow adds to BASE damage rather than counting against max damage. If you squelch that feature of DB it becomes relatively pointless to buy a lot of dice of it all in one lump. I dont have a problem with the BASE damage aspect, but if I turned it off I know it would become much less useful to players.<<<

 

Ahhhhh. This, on the other hand, is exactly my point. I do allow players to buy limited STR to give them extra damage on attacks, exactly as you describe above, But the point here is that this is extra STR and works exactly like extra STR - it doesn't increase the active points in an HKA. And *that* means you can't do 4d6 with a battle axe.

 

My big problem with deadly blow is that it allows a player to buy part of a power and then top up the rest with a freebie item. So I have no problem, with for example, somebody doing 2d6 HKA with a knife. He's just really good with a knife. But, IMG, he'll have to buy that 2d6 HKA and then limit it appropriately (ie: he'll have to pay for what he's getting). I likewise wouldn't allow a wizard to buy an unranged lightning bolt spell and add it to his freebie sword to get extra damage. He could get a linked attack, no problem, but if he wants a 3d6 HKA, he'll have to buy a 3d6 HKA.

 

cheers, Mark

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

It is all about the limits you place on things.

 

The "raw modifier" rules are there for a reason. Also, note that the HTH and HKA attacks are written as "plus HTH or HKA damage."

 

Use whatever rule you like. If you are using Hero rules, where equipment is not bought with points, there is no harm in allowing the wielder to modify the attack with skills or powers. A wizard spell that adds 1d6k lightning damage to a sword is perfectly legal -- the sword is paid for in points when you look at how it is built, just that those points aren't charged to the character.

 

What is or is not legal is entirely up to you, the GM, for your campaign. You have the final say, and if they are trying to do something which gives them too much damage or whatever, say no. If they want to argue that "well the book says this" then kindly direct them to the page in FREd which states something along the lines of "the GM is always right."

 

For instance, in my campaign, I have no active point limits or defense limits or anything. But, if a player comes to me on spending xp and presents an attack that I feel will imbalance the game -- via damage done, active points, flaky rules interpretations -- I simply say no and they've learned to listen to my rulings on such. I want my players to be Heroes, but I also want them to be challenged without having to myself resort to badly worded transforms and uncontrolled 0-end drains

[Old Man]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

 

Hell, despite my dislike of it as a GM, I am considering buying it for my most recent FH character (Raarl - a half-troll pit-fighter). Normally I won't do things for my characters that I would not do as a GM, but the desire to do 4d6 with an axe and no magical enhancements may prove too alluring - it'd allow a near autokill of ordinary humans, almost regardless of armour.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Ouch. That's overkill. I honestly think that 3d6 is plenty enough. 2d6 seems about average for a fantasy campaign, 3d6 is lots for the party brick. Besides, the GM might not appreciate having to deal with a character that can do that much damage.

 

Now that I think about it, I wouldn't allow my players to buy more than one level.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

But the point here is that this is extra STR and works exactly like extra STR - it doesn't increase the active points in an HKA. And *that* means you can't do 4d6 with a battle axe.

 

I'm confused on something. If 2d6 KD is the base damage of a battle axe, and you can do up to twice the base damage of a weapon, then why couldn't you do 4d6 with a battle axe if you had a high enough STR? Wouldn't that be exactly twice the base damage?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

>>>Thats not true. You can buy STR that adds to your existing STR and put a limit on it, or buy HA and add your STR dmg to it. You can buy bonus dice for an EB or KA with additional limitations that add to a bigger attack.<<<

 

You can always buy more of something and limit it - that wasn't my point. HKA and HA both add to STR, but they don't give you more STR.

 

The point there is that in a Equipment Doesnt Cost Points campaign (which most fantasy is run as), the character DOES have the base Killing Attack available to them when ever they acquire a weapon. Thus it is legal to buy a limited KA that only adds to another KA.

 

It's fuzzy, Ill agree, but not outside the bounds of legality.

 

>>>The best parrallel currently is you could buy 15 pts of STR as a power only to do damage with lethal weapons. How much does that cost? 15 STR (OAF of Opportunity -1/2) = 10pts. Which is better than DB straight up in that it adds to normal and killing damage attacks.

 

The main difference is that Deadly Blow adds to BASE damage rather than counting against max damage. If you squelch that feature of DB it becomes relatively pointless to buy a lot of dice of it all in one lump. I dont have a problem with the BASE damage aspect, but if I turned it off I know it would become much less useful to players.<<<

 

Ahhhhh. This, on the other hand, is exactly my point. I do allow players to buy limited STR to give them extra damage on attacks, exactly as you describe above, But the point here is that this is extra STR and works exactly like extra STR - it doesn't increase the active points in an HKA. And *that* means you can't do 4d6 with a battle axe.

 

My big problem with deadly blow is that it allows a player to buy part of a power and then top up the rest with a freebie item. So I have no problem, with for example, somebody doing 2d6 HKA with a knife. He's just really good with a knife. But, IMG, he'll have to buy that 2d6 HKA and then limit it appropriately (ie: he'll have to pay for what he's getting). I likewise wouldn't allow a wizard to buy an unranged lightning bolt spell and add it to his freebie sword to get extra damage. He could get a linked attack, no problem, but if he wants a 3d6 HKA, he'll have to buy a 3d6 HKA.

 

cheers, Mark

Im the first to encourage people to do what they like in their own campaigns.

 

I dont agree with you on this, but I can certainly respect your position on it.

 

We've established in the past that you prefer the low end of the spectrum and I prefer the high when it comes to fantasy.

 

As far as Deadly Blow is concerned, if you tried it out as a) not affecting inanimate objects and not adding to base damage, I think it would be serviceable even at the low and gritty level.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

It is all about the limits you place on things.

 

The "raw modifier" rules are there for a reason. Also, note that the HTH and HKA attacks are written as "plus HTH or HKA damage."

 

Use whatever rule you like. If you are using Hero rules, where equipment is not bought with points, there is no harm in allowing the wielder to modify the attack with skills or powers. A wizard spell that adds 1d6k lightning damage to a sword is perfectly legal -- the sword is paid for in points when you look at how it is built, just that those points aren't charged to the character.

 

What is or is not legal is entirely up to you, the GM, for your campaign. You have the final say, and if they are trying to do something which gives them too much damage or whatever, say no. If they want to argue that "well the book says this" then kindly direct them to the page in FREd which states something along the lines of "the GM is always right."

 

For instance, in my campaign, I have no active point limits or defense limits or anything. But, if a player comes to me on spending xp and presents an attack that I feel will imbalance the game -- via damage done, active points, flaky rules interpretations -- I simply say no and they've learned to listen to my rulings on such. I want my players to be Heroes, but I also want them to be challenged without having to myself resort to badly worded transforms and uncontrolled 0-end drains

Excellent post. That is my approach as well.

[Drakkenkin]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

I don't have FH, but I would like to understand better how this Deadly Blows (DB) thing works.

 

If DB adds to the bace damage, you have 1 level in DB, and you had a 2d6 weapon could you max out the damage to 6d6 with STR? (2d6 wep. + 1d6 DB + 3d6 STR)

 

Drakkenkin

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

I don't have FH, but I would like to understand better how this Deadly Blows (DB) thing works.

 

If DB adds to the bace damage, you have 1 level in DB, and you had a 2d6 weapon could you max out the damage to 6d6 with STR? (2d6 wep. + 1d6 DB + 3d6 STR)

 

Drakkenkin

Yep. If you had a 45 STR over STR Minima, you could crank up to 6d6 killing. 21 BODY on average.

 

 

As a side note, another DB houserule I forgot to mention is that the Deadly Blow damage doesnt get included into BODY totals for purposes of Knockback. Otherwise its just really silly, with things hit with swords and the like getting knocked 60 feet back.

[Markdoc]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Ouch. That's overkill. I honestly think that 3d6 is plenty enough. 2d6 seems about average for a fantasy campaign, 3d6 is lots for the party brick. Besides, the GM might not appreciate having to deal with a character that can do that much damage.

 

Now that I think about it, I wouldn't allow my players to buy more than one level.

 

Oh, I agree totally: it's why I haven't done it. But that IS with only one level. The problem is that my character is the party brick - and with huge muscles, martial arts and battle axe he does only marginally more damage than the team's fast fighter does with his pointy fingernails and deadly blow. The ability to get a small HKA (with a low STR min, natch) and then boost up the base damage, so you can get extra damage with STR makes Deadly Blow, well, deadly - and hyper-excellent value for money.

 

And you are right also about the GM - one character with deadly blow has just entered the campaign and already the other fighter types are starting to evaluate getting it too - so now the GM is obviously pondering what to do....

 

As to the "do 4d6 with a battle axe" thing almost all FH games I have played in, ordinary equipment is free - but comes with a STR min. In the case of a battle axe, that's 13. So to crank out a full 4d6, you'd need 30 STR over that base of 13, or 43 STR. That's pretty rare, even in high powered fantasy campaigns.

 

This thread has been useful though - in games where you pay for equipment, it's merely a case of buying an extra dice or two of limited damage and I would have no problem with that at all. I have run an FH game (for two years, playing weekly) where all the players paid full costs for their gear and spells. It was actually my first FH campaign and we ended up with some ridiculously high-powered (but fun) characters. I kept the same game going three years by retiring those players and starting from scratch with a new characters (same players) and free equipment.

 

But in a free equipment game, I've already found Deadly Blow unbalancing - the fact that many GMs are starting to add extra houserules to keep it under control points in the same direction. Like any competent GM, I am quite capable of saying no to a player concept I find unbalancing - indeed, by declaring Deadly Blow off limits in my game, that's what I am doing. It might be worth pointing out that I like to run long-lived campaigns - I got nearly 4 years of weekly play out of the two parties that played through my Sengoku-era medieval japanese game, and even though I started the players off on lowish points (125) I soon ended up with characters that could do 4d6 killing without any magical enhancement - a combination of STR, martial arts, a Nodachi or Naginata and a couple of levels tossed in for extra damage. If I allowed it, those guys (and gal) would be on Deadly Blow like starving dogs on a bone and I really don't need players that can dish out 5d6 HKA in what I'd consider a low to medium power level game.

 

cheers, Mark

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

Well, when my characters start doing that much damage, they'll start fighting A LOT more guys at once. If you are doing a Ninja / Martial Arts fantasy campaign, and your characters do that much damage, throw more ninjas at them! This is HERO, after all, not Harn, so no harm in having your players be bad-asses, you just have to adjust your villians to them sometimes.

 

But yeah, in low fantasy, it may not be appropriate. And that is right where GM Discretion comes in. Very little in the book is truly "broken" or "abusive" if you have an eye for balance and can work around, or say no to, the suspect power(s).

 

When my fantasy players start doing 4/5d6k damage -- they'll be fighting bad guys who can do the same, or they'll be fighting so many at once that if they didn't drop each in one shot they'd surely lose.

[Talon]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

 

Use whatever rule you like. If you are using Hero rules, where equipment is not bought with points, there is no harm in allowing the wielder to modify the attack with skills or powers. A wizard spell that adds 1d6k lightning damage to a sword is perfectly legal -- the sword is paid for in points when you look at how it is built, just that those points aren't charged to the character.

 

The difference here is that the lightning damage is separate -- the target gets to apply PD against the sword and ED against the lightning.

 

IMO, buying a HKA that adds to any Focus-based HKA you use is not legal by standard rules. I wouldn't allow it in a supers game, that's for sure. Buying a specific HKA which is partially limited is a different matter.

 

What is or is not legal is entirely up to you, the GM, for your campaign. You have the final say, and if they are trying to do something which gives them too much damage or whatever, say no. If they want to argue that "well the book says this" then kindly direct them to the page in FREd which states something along the lines of "the GM is always right."

 

This part is, of course, spot on. I can easily picture games where Deadly Blow fits right in -- if you're using the TA magic system with all the gross spells in there, then melee characters are going to need some help.

[Markdoc]

Re: Deadly Blow talent too powerful?

 

>>> IMO, buying a HKA that adds to any Focus-based HKA you use is not legal by standard rules. I wouldn't allow it in a supers game, that's for sure. Buying a specific HKA which is partially limited is a different matter.<<<

 

Yep, that's my point, succinctly put. In the champions forums, adding powers to other powers has already been discussed, and the consensus is that it would not be allowed - you can't take somebody else's focus and add your powers to it to upgun it. Likewise, a character with HA can't pick up a telephone pole and add it to his HA to get a bigger HA.

 

the one exception is where it has been specifically allowed to buy extra points in a power outside a framework, only to increase the active points in one specific slot: but that's still a single power for which the player pays points, just split between "in slot" and "out of slot".

 

So the construct is definately non-hero system. I'm a bit mystified by its inclusion, but it has been enthusiastically adopted by many players who see it as a cheap route to more damage, and allowed by many GMs (who might have turned it down if a player suggested it), because "it's in the book". That's why I don't think house rules have any place in official material - though I have nothing against house rules per se. Once a kludge has filtered into the system, it's hard to get it out again.

 

I must confess I'm a bit mystified by the most un-hero-like TA "divide by 3" magic system and likewise won't have a bar of it - what seems to have happened is that magic users have been upgunned unnecessarily, so now we have to add non-hero system constructs to the fighters so they can compete. I'd rather just give the players more points and stick to the core rules.

 

cheers, Mark