Speed Rebate

[Zanthis]

Just wondering if anyone would consider this reasonable:

 

I have a new player (her first RPG ever). She created an interesting character (via description, I actually wrote up the powers). She's just gotten to play her and has decided she wants to hit more often and be hit less often. The suggests to me I recommend she improve her DEX which is currently only 14. However, her Speed is already 6 and I really don't want it to get to 7. I'm thinking, since she "spent" 36 points boosting Speed up to 6, I let her get a 1 point rebate on the price of DEX, effecitively letting her pull the points she put into Speed out. This seems at least reasonable to me until she his 20 DEX since this is her first character and her concept for it is still pretty wobbly.

 

Of course the ideal solution would have been to have created her with a 17 or 20 DEX, but hindsight and all.

[Magmarock]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

There's no problem. Just reallocate the points and you are good to go.

 

 

Mags

[Vanguard00]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

It's her first character. You should play with it a bit and let her "settle" into something that's both comfortable and practical so she can learn the system better. Nothing too severe, but an allocation of points from SPD to DEX doesn't seem too outlandish.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

This is the approach I would generally take for anyone raising their DEX - you pay 3 points to add 1 DEX, and the cost of your SPD drops by 1 automatically.

 

OK, technically not "automatically", but I've yet to see a character who did not spend points to at least round their Speed up...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

I agree with Hugh. Just cause you once spent 26 points on SPD doesn't mean you must eternally have 26 points allocated to SPD. The Figured Characteristics, in my mind, have dynamic costs... they change based on the value of the Primary Characteristics and based on the final value you want the Figureds to have. If one of the Primaries changes, and you don't want the value of the corresponding Figureds to change, then absolutely you should adjust the cost of the Figureds (within the restriction about selling back only one Characteristic, of course).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

Actually, thats how the rules generally work already. Its in the Characterisitcs FAQ:

 

Q: If a character increases his DEX, but wants to keep his SPD constant, can he decrease the points he previously spent on SPD and spend the savings on something else? For example, if a character has DEX 17, SPD 4 (costs 13 points), and he increases his DEX to 20 but wants to keep a SPD 4, can he recoup the 3 points he’d “save�

 

A: You should get the GM’s permission, but unless he objects it’s acceptable to decrease the points spent on SPD to maintain a constant SPD score after increasing DEX.

[AngryBug]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

This is a 'me too' post, which I usually avoid making, but...

 

I agree, there's no problem with giving a character a little 'shakedown' time to fine tune the best way to model the abilities you want. Sometimes, a power or ability doesn't quite work out in game terms exactly the way you had envisioned it when creating the character. Juggling a few points around in order to 'fix' the character, to get the concept right, is a good idea in these instances, IMHO.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

The rules concerning the spending of experience are no different than the rules of creating a new character. You pay for what you get and the points balance automatically. The only time you would have to increase a Figured Characteristic because you bought more Primary is if you never increased it in the first place, and it's base was increased by default.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

The only time you would have to increase a Figured Characteristic because you bought more Primary is if you never increased it in the first place' date=' and it's base was increased by default.[/quote']Even then, you wouldn't have to increase it unless you had already sold back another Characteristic. For example, if you raised your STR by 5, and you didn't want your REC to go up, you could sell back the point of REC you got by increasing STR, as long as you hadn't already sold back something else.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

Once a character is in play I usually do the following:

 

SPD doesn't change, unless the character is also attempting to increase their SPD along with the DEX over time, in which case it does. But I don't allow a "buy back" either, you don't get a point back to use elsewhere from increasing your DEX, instead I let a player use 2pts/DEX to increase the DEX score. Essentially the "point back" from SPD for a +1DEX goes right back into DEX for a net expenditure of 2 character points on the DEX stat. The points balance out +3 for the DEX -1 for the SPD = net +2 pts spent, and you don't suddently have another point to use elsewhere.

 

The above rule only applies for use with experience and if the player/GM do not wish the SPD to go up any levels.

 

But then, I also throw out the "can only reduce one figured" rule of the game.

[Zanthis]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

Neat, a FAQ reference. That thing is huge btw. And I thought the FRED was big, but I think the FAQ might actually be bigger. And the new revised book will be bigger still!!! Somehow, I'm looking forward to that. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing

 

Thanks for the help guys. She's really been having fun with her character. Her only major issue is Endurance management (PC has a FF at 3 END/phase + SPD 6 = lots of END) and uses MPA with two swords (I know, I know, why does everyone pick two swords) so at 6 END a pop for attacks and 3/Phase, she goes through it pretty quick.

 

We'll find a happy balance though. Thanks again.

[JmOz]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

And for those who want to be jerks and not allow it, buy Dex with Does not affect figured characteristics...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

And for those who want to be jerks and not allow it' date=' buy Dex with Does not affect figured characteristics...[/quote']

I wasn't gonna say it...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

What's the problem? Points don't exist in the game world.

 

Squirrelman: "I wanted to hit more often and be hit less often so I bought up my DEX which saved me some points on my SPD."

Masked Accountant: "What the heck are you talking about?"

 

And what's the difference between "getting a point back to spend on something else" and "only paying 2 points for the DEX"?

 

I've just earned 3 experience points. I buy a point of DEX. I get back one point to spend on something else. I buy a point of PRE.

 

vs.

 

I've just earned 3 experience points. I buy a point of DEX for 2 points, because my SPD is higher than 1+DEX/10. I buy a point of PRE.

[DrFurious]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

Since the player want is to hit more often and be hit less often, that seems like an obvious case of using CSLs. Right?

[JamesG]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

Since the player want is to hit more often and be hit less often' date=' that seems like an obvious case of using CSLs. Right?[/quote']

 

Assuming they want to hit more with all modes of attack, and get hit less often by all modes of attack, they'd need 8 pnt CSLs. Possible, but very inefficient when compared to DEX.

 

Besides, the player wants to hit more often and be hit less often... that's DEX. If they wanted to hit more often OR be hit less often, that would be CSLs.

 

PS - What I'm getting at here is that the 6 XPs for +3 DEX give +1 OCV and +1 DCV, while the 8 pnt CSL gives +1 OCV or +1 DCV.

[DrFurious]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

Oh, I'm not arguing that buying Dex is less efficient (it is more), but you also get other factors coming in. In addition to the speed increase, Dex-based skills (could) also go up. Is there any real reason to ever buy an 8pt skill level? Maybe if you want to add DCs to an attack...

[GamePhil]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

Or bounce an attack, add to ECV, or buy up CV in a game with Characteristic Maxima.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

What's the problem? Points don't exist in the game world.

 

Squirrelman: "I wanted to hit more often and be hit less often so I bought up my DEX which saved me some points on my SPD."

Masked Accountant: "What the heck are you talking about?"

 

And what's the difference between "getting a point back to spend on something else" and "only paying 2 points for the DEX"?

 

I've just earned 3 experience points. I buy a point of DEX. I get back one point to spend on something else. I buy a point of PRE.

 

vs.

 

I've just earned 3 experience points. I buy a point of DEX for 2 points, because my SPD is higher than 1+DEX/10. I buy a point of PRE.

 

What if you don't have 3 experience? If you only have 2 then scenario 1 where you spend 3 on DEX and get 1 back can't happen, but scenario 2 where you spend 2 on DEX works without issue. Yes - in play there are no points, out of play when your character becomes a piece of paper with squiggly lines on it again there are points and to some GMs this matters.

 

--

Addressing CSLs ... effeciency of points aside, there are in-game reasons to buy one or the other and I think they should be applied more often.

 

You go to the shooting range - you should be buying CSLs.

You go to the local gym and practice acrobatics or a MA - you should be buying DEX.

 

As far as I'm concerned once the game has started in character actions should predominately determine how the points are spent. Barring adjusting a character for whatever reason (new player, unfamiliar concept, etc)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

Addressing CSLs ... effeciency of points aside, there are in-game reasons to buy one or the other and I think they should be applied more often.

 

You go to the shooting range - you should be buying CSLs.

You go to the local gym and practice acrobatics or a MA - you should be buying DEX.

 

In the second example, why shouldn't you be buying up your acrobatics roll or buying levels with your MA?

 

The original character wanted "to hit more often and be hit less often". Logically, the character would do all-round combat training a la the X-Men's Danger Room or the Avengers workouts, focusing on dodging and hitting.

 

The character doesn't know what the point menchanics are - only player and GM do. I would say the player can justify either approach, either:

 

"My character's training regimen has honed her agility and hand-eye co-ordination, such that I purchase extra DEX", or

 

""My character's training regimen has honed her skills in combat, such that I purchase extra CSL's"

 

In many game systems, a character's stats are fixed at creation, or change only very slowly, at specific points in time. As such, the focus is on increasing combat skills. In D&D terms, it's way easier to enhance your ability to hit by taking Fighter levels than by raising your STR and/or your DEX.

 

In Hero, both alternatives are available for spending xp. To me, at least, that's a strength of Hero's flexibility. Is it appropriate to all genres? No. Is it appropriate to Supers? I'd say yes - Mutants & Masterminds seems to agree - that's the only d20 system I've seen where stat increases have been removed from the "every 4 levels" structure.

 

In genres where it is not appropriate, NCM would, in my opinion, generally apply. NCM makes CSL's a more cost-effective alternative after the maximum is attained. If my character has a 20 DEX, and wants to hit more often and be hit less often, he could buy +3 DEX for 15 points (after getting 3 back related to Speed). Alternatively, he could pay 16 points for two CSL's. That extra 1 point permits him to choose between OCV and DCV (eg have +2 DCV when he dodges, or +2 OCV to block). It also enables him to add damage classes, something DEX won't help with. Or he could buy 2 5 point CSL's, +1 DCV and +1 OCV, leaving 6 points to buy something else (for 5, he can buy a level with all DEX based skills - that leaves one for Fast Draw, almost duplicating a DEX purchase).

 

In heroic campaigns, skills are more the focus, and skill levels become an economical purchase. In superheroic campaigns, powers and superhuman stats generally outshine skills, so skill levels take a back seat. A greater focus on skills wouldn't be "wrong", but it wouldn't be "right" either. Itb would be "different", and it would better emulate some parts of the genre while causing more problems emulating other parts.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

Not quoting .. but responding.

 

Using the gynasium to increase acrobatics or a dojo for MA would be as appropriate as using the gym to increase DEX as well. I agree.

 

I was just pointing out that in game, it can take a little more for a character to justify increased DEX than taking CSLs. You can become a superd swordsman through practice, on a dummy or vs a partner, learning just where to hit the opponent and how to counter maneuvers, taking CSLs or MA(swords) in that case would be more appropriate than taking just DEX increases to show that you're better with the sword. This goes double for characters that use multiple types of weapons but mainly practiced with one for a period of time.

 

CSLs, Maneuvers and Skills go a long way to better simulating genre and often times lead to better drama than simply going the "most cost effective" route of increasing the base stat - such as DEX. I use CSLs all the time instead of a higher DEX because more often that not it does a better job of portraying the concept than making all my char 30DEX. Even in a supers game.

[Zanthis]

Re: Speed Rebate

 

I'd like to stay away from CSLs since it is her first RPG ever and its already pretty confusing for her. I'll save teaching her about how to arrange her CSLs for later (although she does have 2 right now, I just always have her put them in OCV for now).