Bringing new players to HERO System.

[Mark Taylor]

I'm curious because the difficulty of bring new players to HERO System has been much discussed on this board (and on RPG.net). I'm just about to begin two HERO campaings (Ninja HERO and Fantasy HERO) and have six players signed up for each. Some of these players have heard negative things about HERO system (the usual - overly complicated, difficult math, yadda yadda) but still it took very little persausion on my part to convince them to give it a try. I've just told the players that I'll make it as easy for them to get into the system as I can, that I think most of the criticisms are greatly exaggerated at best, and that if they have a desire to learn more about the system than they will need to play then Sidekick provides an excellent (and cheap) introduction.

 

What are the main difficulties that other people find in trying to persuade new players to give it a chance?

[Agent X]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

I'm curious because the difficulty of bring new players to HERO System has been much discussed on this board (and on RPG.net). I'm just about to begin two HERO campaings (Ninja HERO and Fantasy HERO) and have six players signed up for each. Some of these players have heard negative things about HERO system (the usual - overly complicated, difficult math, yadda yadda) but still it took very little persausion on my part to convince them to give it a try. I've just told the players that I'll make it as easy for them to get into the system as I can, that I think most of the criticisms are greatly exaggerated at best, and that if they have a desire to learn more about the system than they will need to play then Sidekick provides an excellent (and cheap) introduction.

 

What are the main difficulties that other people find in trying to persuade new players to give it a chance?

I've had no trouble finding players. The Oklahoma City Area is full of HERO players.

[Snarf]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

What are the main difficulties that other people find in trying to persuade new players to give it a chance?

If the potential players don't already like rules heavy games, then I wouldn't try too hard to recruit them. You're going to be fighting an uphill battle the whole time unless they're pretty open minded and willing to put some effort into learning a new game.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

I'm curious because the difficulty of bring new players to HERO System has been much discussed on this board (and on RPG.net). I'm just about to begin two HERO campaings (Ninja HERO and Fantasy HERO) and have six players signed up for each. Some of these players have heard negative things about HERO system (the usual - overly complicated, difficult math, yadda yadda) but still it took very little persausion on my part to convince them to give it a try. I've just told the players that I'll make it as easy for them to get into the system as I can, that I think most of the criticisms are greatly exaggerated at best, and that if they have a desire to learn more about the system than they will need to play then Sidekick provides an excellent (and cheap) introduction.

 

What are the main difficulties that other people find in trying to persuade new players to give it a chance?

 

Getting gamers to try Hero: that's easy.

 

Finding gamers in North Carolina: that's hard.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

If the potential players don't already like rules heavy games' date=' then I wouldn't try too hard to recruit them. You're going to be fighting an uphill battle the whole time unless they're pretty open minded and willing to put some effort into learning a new game.[/quote']

 

I'm not particularly worried about that aspect of it. One of my strongest points as a GM is the ablility to teach players what they need to know about new systems without overloading them. Put simply, I'm good at teaching and explaining systems. I've been able to do that successfully with numerous systems in the past, including some fairly rules-heavy systems. I'll show them what they need to know as they create characters and then as they play, as I always have done. I expect at least a few of them will be curious enough to want to learn more and will probably at least get their own copies of Sidekick, but I don't make it a requirement. IMX nothing is more likely to put players off a system than requiring them to buy the book - which is understandable, especially when it's a system they know little or nothing about until they've actually played it.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

Getting gamers to try Hero: that's easy.

 

Finding gamers in North Carolina: that's hard.

 

Quite a lot of other posts I remember reading have suggested the former is hard. I was interested in hearing about what approaches people had tried and why they think they failed (or succeeded).

 

Good luck with the latter.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

Quite a lot of other posts I remember reading have suggested the former is hard. I was interested in hearing about what approaches people had tried and why they think they failed (or succeeded).

 

Good luck with the latter.

 

Actually, to give a more meaningful answer, my expereince with gamers over the past 20-odd years (Oh my, am I really that old?) is that most gamers are willing to try almost any game system - so long as someone else is willing to GM.

 

The only common exception to this that I have encountered has been a sub-set of the White Wolf WOD gamers who ONLY play WOD games (but the old curmudgeon simply chooses to not consider them to be "true gamers").

[tesuji]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

i ran a lot of HERo games over the years, both supers and fantasy hero. In most of those, i had guys who were either already experienced with HERo or people whi did not mind heavier systems. But for a number of them, i actively sought new players and brought them in.

 

First thing to do is hook them not on the system but on the game. Figure out a genre or style they are interested in that you feel you can not only do well but that HERO does well. Until say the last several years, i might have urged scifi since the pickin's were slim, but maybe now with so much scifi out there and the popularity of supers scifi isn't the best choice. i will leave that to you.

 

Second thing is, remember, new players (unless they are "system crunchers" by nature) are usually less interested in learning the system and playing the system than they are in playing the game or playing their characters. IMX they are really not interested in a course on "HERO frameworks 101" and "HERO Rounding is your friend 301". So take a lot of time before hand to create a workable quick pick and play startup. Don't make them figure out how to build spiderman from scratch and whether his spidey sense fits in an Ec... provide archtypes. While you are plumbing the waters to get a feel for the type of game, LISTEN and remember the characters they mention as interesting and provide those as archtypes. The goal is to get them into play without making the system a hill they have to climb BEFORE they ever see fun time.

 

Third thing is, make the play quick, lively and not about the system. Don't get anywhere close to held actions, speed chart milking, cannot shhot and move, and all the other HEROisms that experienced hero guys have all accepted as gospel. Dont talk INCHES unless their characters are breaking out a ruler for an actual in game measurement. Talk feet or yards or meters. Don't fret over any maneuver not listed on the character sheet for a while, save the martial artist with passing strike speedster move thrus for later. in short, avoid using the parts of the system "against them" that they will be unfamiliar with. Your goal is to highlight the good parts of the combat system and not to show them that they know so very little about the whole thing that they feel unprepared when actually playing.

 

let them grow with the game as opposed to climb up to it. Add more things in as they ask about it.

[Agent X]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

And build a character sheet that has the points off of it. It is amazing how small most character sheets get when you take the accounting off the page. Set up nice little boxes for Characteristics, Movement, Senses, Defenses, Attacks, and Skills and enjoy.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

And build a character sheet that has the points off of it. It is amazing how small most character sheets get when you take the accounting off the page. Set up nice little boxes for Characteristics' date=' Movement, Senses, Defenses, Attacks, and Skills and enjoy.[/quote']

 

I think this is key.

 

If you can emphasise the coolness and hide anything not absolutely necessary for the players to see then it is guaranteed to go much better.

 

 

Doc

[Lord Kilsco]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

To my mind, "Hero System Sidekick" is a first good try to bring new players to Hero System. It explains simply the basics of the system and emphasizes what is the most important part of the system for a player : character creation !

 

However, I can't deny that Hero System is complex. That's why, imho, GM must take care of the most complex elements of the system and help players to create their characters. The best way for that is to speak to the player to know what kind of character he wants to play, and then create the character with him. A big mistake would be to let a player create his character alone, with just his rulebook ...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

You have to be willing to see some of the players not stick, and keep going with the ones that have an interest.

 

 

Personally I take the approach LK recommends; I work with the players to collect what kind of character they want to play, and then translate that into the HERO System for them (on the points available). It can take awhile, but it solves a lot of other problems and is thus worth the effort generally speaking IMO.

[Maccabe]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

The one thing I have found that turns most people OFF about Champions

is that the system is too "generic". Now with some game systems; DC, MUSH, V&V,GURPS etc, the powers are neatly spelled out.

Example-> Fire Generation does 3d8 damage and thats all you need to know. However in HERO that could be 4d6 Energy Blast with the special

effect of Fire. It can be; Fire Breathing, Flaming Missile, Pyrokinesis,etc.

(Sturring up the imagination of a gamer seems to be a rare skill indeed.)

[Lord Kilsco]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

The one thing I have found that turns most people OFF about Champions

is that the system is too "generic". Now with some game systems; DC, MUSH, V&V,GURPS etc, the powers are neatly spelled out.

Example-> Fire Generation does 3d8 damage and thats all you need to know. However in HERO that could be 4d6 Energy Blast with the special

effect of Fire. It can be; Fire Breathing, Flaming Missile, Pyrokinesis,etc.

(Sturring up the imagination of a gamer seems to be a rare skill indeed.)

Once again, I think it's the GM role to help the player to find the technical answer of what he wants for his character. The player explains the power or the spell he wants, then the GM and the player find the Hero System solution. Gradually, the player will be more and more familiar with the system and will need less and less GM help.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

Today I got all of the characters for the Turakian Age created, working with the players. It went pretty well and I'm pleased with the result! Because it's a published setting it's not too hard for the players to get what they want without going too deeply into the system, of course. All of the spells plus options are spelled out in FHG, and FH and TA have dozens of package deals to help the players choose what they want. However almost all of the players at least got adventurous enough to want to customise their Professional Package Deals to some extent, and one player even got adventurous enough to want to build a spell from scratch (admittely a rather simple one), so I basically built the spell for him and showed him the steps involved and the requirements of the TA magic system as I was doing it. The end result of that particular endeavor (in case anybody is interested) was:

 

---

Air Prison

 

This spell creates a magical, swirling vortex of air around a single character, imprisoning him and making it impossible to move until he breaks out.

 

Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks (+1/2) (75 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Requires An Air Magic Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2). Total Cost: 30 points (final cost to caster: 10 points).

 

---

Anyway, none of the players were put off the system at all, and all of them are enthusiastic about starting play next week. One player already went out and bought Sidekick and Fantasy Hero (but they're waiting for 5ER before buying FREd). Pretty good result, so far.

[Steve Long]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

Sounds like good progress, Mark! Let us know how the campaign goes.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

Sounds like good progress' date=' Mark! Let us know how the campaign goes. [/quote']

 

Thanks, I certainly will.

[GhostWing]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

I'm part of a group of old college buddies who are about to play Champions/HERO system. The big advantages HERO has over other systems is that if you have enough character points, you can build vitually any type of character and characters are very well defined.

 

Sure there are a lot of stats (and tons of skills/powers/etc!) but this game only uses 6-sided dice, and the combat system is not much different than most. I bought the Sidekick rules (even though I already had the 5eHC), since it was under $10 and I definitely recommend using it for new players and so you have another rulebook handy.

 

The way I'm overcoming the rumblings of "this game looks too complicated with all these stats!" is by making the first session a user-friendly intro to the game. I'm running a session where everyone plays a pregenerated character and has to blow through a "Danger Room" simulation and possibly brawl with each other. The pre-gens represent the different character types (brick, energy projector, speedster, etc.) and use different design concepts (using the most basic power advantages/limitations and frameworks). I figure the first game will help everybody learn the combat system, adjust to how I'm gonna GM the game and help them figure out what kind of character they want to play.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

Progress Report!

 

Two game sessions played in the TA campaign, one last Sunday and one today. At the moment I'm running a plot loosely based on the adventures from Fantasy HERO Battlegrounds, with a few twists and turns of my own thrown in. It's going great! The second session especially was great fun. None of the players have run away. The one who bought Sidekick and Fantasy Hero is already talking about buying more HERO Products, and the players who have spellcasting characters are already really enjoying the fact that they can meddle with their spells and spend Experience Points on improving different aspects of them instead of just buying more spells. What I'm looking forward to now is getting the players competent enough with the combat system that they start to explore using a wider variety of different combat maneuvers, and I think that's starting to happen already. I think it's going incredibly well considering I've never run HERO System before, and none of the players ever played it before!

 

Now, on Wednesday I start the Ninja HERO campaign with a different group (though one player is common to both groups). Fun fun fun.

[Steve Long]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

Glad to hear things are going so well, Mark!

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

Sounds like you're making great progress!

 

In general, I'd have to say that the easiest way to bring new players to HERO is to wrap it in something familiar and interesting.

 

Waaaay back in the day, they'd set up at the open gaming tables and hand out character sheets for the X-Men, Alpha Flight, etc. and just set them up and have at it. It was a fabulously successful way to introduce people to a brand new game system.

 

These days, I'd have to go with the Teen Titans by way of the animated series, or the JLA or some fighting game or some anime series. The attraction is that people already know who Cyborg is, people already know what he does to kick butt, and here's a chance to match him against Iron Man or Chun Li or Vash the Stampede. Most game systems aren't flexible enough to handle that. This one is.

 

Sell them on the ability to model any character they've ever heard of, ever dreamed of, and they'll be more than happy to learn the mechanics to make them go.

 

selling them on the number crunching to make them in the first place is a little harder. I'd have pre-gens handy if I wanted to sell new players on the system.

 

$0.02

[Zephrosyne]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

John, I live in Fayetteville. To bad you live so far away. I am currently running a Dungeons and Dragons game, but I plan to give Hero System a go after this campaign has run its course. I have always been a big fan of the system. I ran it briefly about twelve years ago and look foreward to taking another stab at it. My best friend likes it too.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

John' date=' I live in Fayetteville. To bad you live so far away. I am currently running a Dungeons and Dragons game, but I plan to give Hero System a go after this campaign has run its course. I have always been a big fan of the system. I ran it briefly about twelve years ago and look foreward to taking another stab at it. My best friend likes it too.[/quote']

 

Like unto a dagger through my heart...

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

I'm quite worried about finding players myself. Norfolk -- which is where I live -- has plenty of role-players, but I wonder. Myself, I'd never heard of HERO before, but the other, sillier, game systems had been taking their toll on me; d20 is evil, I say, evil! I am truly thankful I discovered HERO and read those online rave reviews. It's great. I just hope others learn to feel the same way.

 

Also, I just got my HERO System 5E a few weeks ago. I've read it through and reread it, and already started converting the Fallout universe into HERO 5E. I plan to release said Fallout campaign setting as a fully and professionally edited PDF when I am done, for fans to download -- with Steve's approval, of course. A sample of a racial package deal resides here.

 

I just hope my natural talent for and experience with gamemastering can bring quality players to the table when it's all over.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Bringing new players to HERO System.

 

I'm quite worried about finding players myself. Norfolk -- which is where I live -- has plenty of role-players' date=' but I wonder. [/quote']

 

The Hampton Roads area (Norfolk, Va Beach, Chesapeake, Hampton, Newport News, York County, etc, etc) is full of Hero players (I lived there for 30 years, moved from there to North Caolina back in 1997). Canvas the local game stores - you'll find folks.